milczyciel

Let me quote Death Machine Miyagi here, because he pretty much nailed that particularly (imo) intriguing facet of fantastical settings.

I love it. Given possibility, I will be aristocracy's biggest nightmare headache... or hangover, depending on the context and nature of my PC exploits. Power to the people and all that nonsense. Also:

Excuse me for being so blatant about it, but that otherwise fine post needed that fix. There's plethora of books and movies that are not pleasant at all, but still immensely interesting. "The Pianist" for example?

No idea what happened in former incarnations of "romantic" threads (I know folks you, forum dwellers have a history with that), but it had to be ugly to leave scars that deep. Which is sad, because if anyone, it's Obsidian who is able to make that r word, that trend, that story arc and cliche interesting and meaningful again. Driven by memories of Planescape Torment I will believe that's still possible. We have games talking about rape people, %^*%&* rape being treated by a skill check... I have to drop following those threads - I'm obviously to thin skinned for my own good. But before I do so, let me quote one of the games that gathered us all here.

Which actually is a pretty terrible statement for a developer that just had his major project paid by those devoted fans he is so easily dismissing now. Statements like this reduce the chance to get money for new projects dignificantly... not becausr of the romance but because of the bland disrespect towadds the fans. If fans pay your project you better listen to their wishes because they are basically your one and only investor.... telling them that you will ignlre them even if they all have the same opinion on a topic seems ... well Chill out, it's out of context and only because of that it sounds like Josh does not give a <insert yoour favourite impolite word here> The actual quote goes like that:

Huh, splendid as always. Those death godlikes gives so smuch to ponder about. Let me point just few that immediately comes to mind: 1) Are they blind? 2) Were they always blind? I'm assuming here they were born without those horn-like outgrowth, and loosed their sight in the process of maturation. ad 2) If so, awesome, because that gives them just another reason to hate their heritage and may also lead to introduction of potentially agonizingly painful medical/shamanic treatment into the lore 3) But in case they were born that way, we can assume it was deadly to their mothers, which again goes to "reasons why I hate myself <whines>" 4) If they are indeed blind, then maybe they developed some sort of another godlike-based sense? Something similar to the feeling sense, but letting them distinguish and perceive the world via alive, dead, inanimate way? So many delightful possibilities - omnomnom

Weeeell, it depends what you mean by romance. It didn't have a long multi-dialogue/mini quest line thing like BG2 but you could flirt with either Annah or Fall-From-Grace and in the former's case (dunno about the latter's) there was a dialogue line that resulted in a kiss. Still, as you say, there's plenty of room for great companion interaction without romances. And if it's a choice of more dialogue related to romance or more dialogue related to individuals' reactions to the world at large I'll take the latter. (Kind of OT but my one of my favourite companion quests was Veronica's in Fallout:NV. The PC can influence the outcome, or even leave the key choice up to Veronica, but they can't simply fix her problems. There's no romance involved but it's still very affecting.) If you count that trick Ravel pulled off, then you could -figuratively- kiss both of them. But if we are discussing "real deal" (mental shortcut) then yes, only Annah falls into that category. This way or another, that counts as a romance in my book and even one of the better ones (if not the best in some regard) for that matter. I'd even risk saying it's a proof that "CA can romance (into space)" if he is allowed to do it on his own pace and getting somehow convinced he's not writing a romance to begin with, just a meaningful, cliche breaking, tense interaction between characters. Seriously - it was so good, that I couldn't bring myself to flirt with Annah more than once! Only the most depraved ones could find amusement in the misery that brings to her, after the game ends (assuming she's alive). Likewise Fall From Grace - maybe even better, as IIRC she gives a promise that she'll scour Lower Planes to find and rescue Nameless One. But I can't find confirmation on that, so I may be wrong. And since I'm already here, wasn't it implied that she knew and lowed a former incarnation of NO? I also can't find any confirmation on that but something tells me it happened. Doesn't matter - even if I'm wrong about FFG and even with all the obvious shortcomings and limitations, it's still great "romance" writing and "romance" execution for me, and hopefully not only me. Nevertheless, I was and still am against romancing in PoE, if only because -and forgive me for being callously blunt- Obsidian* never created romance that was good engaging and appealing to me. Maybe it's because I'm devoid of feelings, maybe I have different issues that keep me away from enjoying it, but maybe, just maybe it's because all that time they tried to much to fit into this already established, stiff pattern, in the process striping it away from their own touch? I don't know, but I'm not willing to take a risk - at least this way I'm sure I won't be bothered by companions trying to get into my pants only because I like to play "mr goodie two shoes", a carebear that want's to bring at least some joy to the lives of even most Xan-ish ones. And don't even let me start on that god damned influence "love" must have over companion's ending. Way, way to often It seems that the only way for them to live their lives to the full goes through my pants! What the hell, I'm already THE savior of the known world, do I really have to go beyond and assume a role of Kim Jong-il incarnation?! Seriously, I'm not THAT self-centered. To sum it up: I believe we're doing a disservice to ourselves here, by limiting our options of what is and what is not a romance to the Bioware's model and far less often but also mentioned jRPG cliches. I hope there are many different paths leading there still left intact. * I do not count titles that good folks from Obsidian worked at before 2004 as "Obsidian game". There's to much outside influence to call anything beyond that purely "theirs"

@up You got my flintlock pistol and all that jazz

Indeed, the numbers speak for themselves.

And that suddenly changed my whole FFVII experience for the better! jk - I still find it horrible But I'm not interested in arguing - if someone enjoys that kind of story telling then why should I tell him otherwise. I'll partially agree. Sure it was not your typical good ending, but neither was Vicionia's epilogue from ToB in that matter. And I may not remember every detail, but I'm almost 100% sure that she either voiced her sorrow, or it was heavily suggested (that ring she gave you?). Even getting on her good side was done in almost exactly same manner as it was in Viconia's case. Plus - let us not forget about the "Witch Hunt" DLC, because with that one in mind, her story could arguably get a "happy end" closure (at least until whatever happens in DA:I) All of the above makes me recognize Morrigan's arc as very well written and superbly acted (Claudia Black ftw) but ultimately derivative. Nothing new under the sun.

Heyyy... I completely forgot about a romance between Aerie and Haer'Dalis. Yeah, that's something we don't see very often with all that romancing centered around PC - can't say I'm against that.

Seriously - I wish I could be surprised by quality of romance writing, but the thing is I was not since BG2 (and even then only because of reasons I explained above). Well, ok, I was once - by "Final Fantasy VII" when I decided to give it a try, and learn why it's considered to be holy grail by many. It was by all means not a nice surprise.

Sir, are you suggesting we should complain more, so it would get even better? Because that's an awesome shade... of... <ok, I don't like where I'm going here> ... G-damn, all I wanted to say is that it looks great and I envy him. Look what you've done!

Well, you could have give a link in that post of yours. Now I'm left with my lacking skill of googling it by myself, because god damn I must read that one!

This pretty much, though I must admit it would be an unimaginable money sink to satisfy MY hopes for a game recognizing all of the factors I deem to be important. In fact that would mean writing different dialogues for every race, gender, class and reputation I would end up. Add some recognition for decisions made through the game which I guess applies to more than 50% of game's text*. I.E. something that could never be. If game has two, maybe three variables (like "the Witcher") then maybe, but in case of PoE I'll have to trim down my unreasonable expectations and hope it will at least differ from DA:O when after the Battle of Ostagar, my char and every one else pretty much forgot she's a vengeful female city elf with a blood of a noble on her hands. And don't even make me start on "stupid-chars" TL:DR PoE will cater to those sentiments, and will quite probably kick ass in this regard, sure. But given the budget and the size of developer's team it can't be bigger than that. There's wishful thinking and there's outright self-deception. So it would be great if I'd stop doing the latter * keeping it oversimplified: 5! makes 120 variables for that "out of thin air" 50% of text I pulled out. Even though they could be segmented and interchangeable, thus keeping that number far lower and less intimidating, it would still count as "****loads" But isn't that truth about racism/sexism etc in general? When it's subtle, then it (in most cases) ends up being barely recognizable and even less often called out. Don't we tend to apply those terms to those who are either fiercely defensive and proud about it, or to those who's effort to hide it are indeed "hamfisted"?

Wow, how the hell did I miss all that (tumblr, yt channel)? Thanks Infinitron!

The more I think about it the less I want it back. I think I understand the sentiment and how it stems from the fact, that many of us were teenagers when BG2 happened. Struggling with our own developing feelings must have been an important factor. And I bet I'm not the only one that pursued and more importantly ENJOYED Aerie's romance at least until real life gave us a lesson or two and we moved on, to discover new found appreciation for story arcs of Jaheira (in case of my friend) and Viconia (in my case). And after that how long it took, before all of it grew old and felt flat in comparison to the first hand experience? In my case, that fascination ended right there, because I didn't really enjoyed any romances after BG2. For example I don't remember almost anything about them in NWN2 and to top that I learned about Bastila's good ending only thanks to the internet. Also, can't say I did a lot of "research" upon that topic in ME or DA:O. Mostly, because I tend to play as a female character in a vain hope that it will be a meaningful, game changing factor*. When I did play as a male though, I discovered that Tali and Morrigan are nothing more than HD versions of character sheets used back then when I cared (i.e. Aerie and Viconia). And that made me believe, they are still appealing -yes- but mostly for those who are, today, what we were back then. Kids imagining and secretly** longing for things we couldn't comprehend at the time. Who knows though, maybe someday, someone will write a romance arc, that will be genuinely interesting for old farts like myself Stranger things happened and are still happening. moment of realization: So... just how many women and homosexuals are there, expecting PoE, and do they/you feel different about all that "romancing"? I'm honestly curious because, sadly, I don't know any female or gay gamer IRL so I never had any chance to discuss it "outside the box". To make it worse I didn't even read anything about it, given that 99% game journalist I follow are men and overwhelming majority of them are straight. So, is it a factor? Or am I making narrow minded fool of myself here? * I must admit both Fallout (1&2) and Arcanum were not that revolutionary in the field as my nostalgia let me believe. Still they do outrun games of modern age in this regard, so tell me how sad is that? ** Show me an underaged male openly discussing love with his buddies. BG2 did that - me and my classmates were arguing about Aerie, Jaheira and Viconia almost as much, as we did about Quake vs Unreal or Bozar vs Gauss Rifle. And we did so free from that stupid stigma of doing something "unmanly" because we had "it's just a game" excuse.

It's less an idea, rather something I would like to see avoided, but it's not worth (imo) a topic on it's own so... Please don't hide lore containing items (like scrolls books etc) in locations that are forcing player to be in a rush (because of a time limit, AoE that slowly kills the PC and so on) and which can't be later accessed.

Can't say I'm surprised given Chris's stance. Force someone into doing something he's not very fond of and behold the results. To qote AGX-17: "just saying"

@up Thanks. Serves me well for asking BEFORE even reading the whole article. Well... perfect example about stupidity on my behalf

Nine proposals? That's great to hear, even if half of only 1/3 of them end up being produced. Would you mind to elaborate? I didn't heard about that before and it seems I'm doing something wrong here, because I can't google it.

To that, I can only say: LaserFrog (seriously, it's only 5 minutes long, give it a try) Jokes aside: I wanted to fantasize about hiring Campbell Lane but then I checked wikipedia... <minutes later> ...and after searching for confirmation found that: http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/other-news-20/beast-wars-voice-actor-campbell-lane-has-passed-away-179256/ (check the timestamp) If it's true, it may turn out to be one of the more depressing coincidences I ever experienced...

Thanks for sharing. Another one that I would probably miss if not for the helpful folks like you I understand the sentiment behind "quantity" of monsters. It sure would be problematic for a 20h+ game (I assume that will be at least 30+ in my case, knowing how I tend to check every nook and cranny). Sure, it would be great to have both, but since that's impossible I'm good with some animation/details sacrifices here and there.

I think I can do one better: Bastion-style sports-commentary-type narrator. None other than Nicholas Cage! That's a funny coincidence, because on my first playthrough I believed that Bastion's narration was done by Ron.