Christliar

Pretty much. It's like they just said to themselves "eeeehh, it's a new IP we can make our companions exposition machines." Their builds aren't even useful past normal difficulty, so it renders them obsolete. I wouldn't say they are boring per se, even though they kinda are, just irrelevant (both narratively AND mechanically). And that's the worst the companions can ever be - irrelevant. Already talked about this 3 times in this very thread.

Soooo basically role-playing? In a role-playing game? The PC doesn't really have a character, because it's a blank slate. It's whatever you want it to be which kinda renders it impossible to be anything. It means that the plot cannot revolve around it unless they pigeon hole us in a certain way. Maybe you are right that the intentions for the companions are to define the PC, but the PC is just not very interesting. It is predictable, because it's you; there is no other way to put it. The companions can be amazing tools to define the vaguely defined entity that is the PC, that is true. Example: Revan. Revan wasn't interesting in KotOR 1, not even close. It was Kreia who made her/him interesting by giving him coherent motivations and a strong character. Kreia also gave the Exile coherent motivations and a backstory. You can not give a blank slate character motivations that matter to the plot - that is, at least at the moment, impossible to code and write about. The companions have to act as a crutch for the PC, but also stand on their own. (That is deliciously philosophical btw ;p) They kinda do nothing in PoE. They don't even react to your (except GM with the kid) "personality" (not that you have one).

Yeah, I mentioned vaguely that KotOR2 is Kreia's story somewhere in this thread. You are right about KotOR's characters, although the plot wouldn't happen without Bao-Dur since only he had the codes needed to operate the device on Malachor, but otherwise yes. Most of them still have some ties to the narrative though. I think if Obsidian were given more time with KotOR 2 they would've been developed even more, the restoration mod by itself gives a lot of insight about what could've been. I never mentioned that every single companion had to be important or involved in the main plot, but they at least have to have a reason to come with you. BG 1 and 2 really aren't bastions of writing and I haven't mentioned them anywhere. I agree about them though. I don't want a KotOR sequel, I just want coherent companions ;p The companions being well developed is not true. They have so little screen time and that screen time is used to give exposition and play therapist. And they are "used to tell the story of the watcher"? What does that mean? What "story" would that even be? Thaos and co.? The companions have *nothing* to do with *anything* related to the PC or the main plot, so I don't know what you mean.

I think we both can agree that the companions in general aren't very well developed and used. Kind of meaningless to have companions when that is the case since exposition can be delivered by other NPCs that aren't your companions. You can just use the adventurer's hall. It is a waste and I do hope Obsidian would do it better in the sequel and I KNOW they can, because of all their other titles being amazing in this regard. We already talked about this and came to the conclusion (or maybe I just did) that even if that was true it doesn't go anywhere and it isn't supported by anything within the game. There is no "pattern of unanswered questions" and the game doesn't really bring up any kind of meaningful questions. It even gives answers to questions that weren't even asked and/or were made up in the last half of act 3. ;p

Like I said (for like the 4th time now) all my examples for good companions are from games where you CAN kill or ignore companions entirely. Especially in MotB you can *eat* all your companions and they still are important. In KotOR2 you can play solo, but Kreia still interjects whenever something important happens through telepathy or in cutscenes (the dialogue with Mandalore for example) A counter to my own arguments: Planescape Torment is very well written, but the companions aren't involved in the main quest (with the possible exception being Morte) - that's because there really isn't a main quest to worry about rather than a vague "find out who you are" thing. They are drawn to you, because they see a kindred spirit in their suffering/torment. That works too, but can't be applied to PoE's companions.

The fun part is that your quest isn't about stopping the hollowing, because nobody has any idea how or why it happened so you have literally nothing to go on. It just happens to be connected to Thaos, so the characters who have vague interest in the hollowing wouldn't know that joining the PC would help with that. The only hint we have that this is going to lead in any way to the Hollowing is because the main quest is titled "The Hollowing of the Dyrwood" which is really meta and spoiler-ish and I don't think our companions can read our GUI ;p Clearly Mark Twain also didn't understand storytelling. After all, the Duke and Dauphin run into Huckleberry Finn and Jim, and they have no connection to the main story. Clearly every single character has to have their motives written in all caps, and anything else is just an "exposition dump." The con artists? Whose motivation is to con people? And they see an opportunity with Huck and Jim? I haven't read Huckleberry Finn in probably a decade, so I might be misremembering.

...You can kill Lady Webb. That's the only other "alternative" ending I know.

I think most people are spreading the meaning of "connected to the main plot" too thin and too wide. Most of your (as in general you) examples are just examples of exposition dumps and world building rather than in any way connected to the main plot. The crux of the problem is that the companions are random people you happen to stumble across your adventures rather than the adventure being something personally meaningful for them. It seems WEIRD that these people would follow you into death the moment you meet them just because... I don't really know, no explanation is given. Yeah, sure you play therapist for a while, but that's stupid. EDIT: Maybe people are just reading the thread title? I should've worded it differently now that I think about it, but I don't see an edit thread title button. This thread is about the main plot and not the setting.

You still are *A* Chosen One. It happens totally by accident, but it's still the same. You should also be concerned that you being a Watcher doesn't really do anything. The plot could've happened without Watchers even existing in the universe. It just gives an excuse to talk to centuries dead people which would work the same if they weren't centuries old nor dead.

But it's not about whether you are aware of it or not. It's the realization that you will never get away from this existence that is the problem. In PoE's world everyone knows you reincarnate. Maybe it wouldn't be as horrible if you don't remember anything, but it would still be pointless because in that case all our personalities would fade and they would become irrelevant and so would the question of reincarnation. Even Buddhism and Hinduism don't have eternal reincarnation, because it would be so meaningless as to render life itself meaningless. In those religions the soul eventually becomes part of god and stops reincarnating e.i dies. It would also be a valid choice to kill yourself if you don't like your life now. All those miserable parents of hollowborn children? Kill yourself, maybe there are no hollowborn in the next life. That prostitute which you can pay to get the amulet from could just kill herself. Mearwald could kill himself rather than endure his madness. Aloth having an alcoholic father and seeing no way out - kill himself. Raedric killing his wife for being an Eothas worshiper - pointless. Suicide becomes a valid choice to any seemingly impassible problems rendering even death meaningless. Except there's the issue of possible soul fragmentation upon death, so it's not exactly a choice without perils. Not to mention that souls tend to Awaken if they have unfinished business from previous lives, which also has the potential to be... inconvenient. That's not inherent to suicide. Soul fragmentation makes the whole thing even worse, because you will reincarnate no matter the fragmentation and from then on you will always be a sanitarium patient and all your existences will be torture. I suppose the only thing that makes this somewhat viable is if what Rymrgand said is true - that at one point the soul just gets absorbed in his "winter" and ceases to exist. We don't have any evidence of this and he might as well be lying so as to give his "portfolio" credence, but since the gods have no real power that point is moot.

But it's not about whether you are aware of it or not. It's the realization that you will never get away from this existence that is the problem. In PoE's world everyone knows you reincarnate. Maybe it wouldn't be as horrible if you don't remember anything, but it would still be pointless because in that case all our personalities would fade and they would become irrelevant and so would the question of reincarnation. Even Buddhism and Hinduism don't have eternal reincarnation, because it would be so meaningless as to render life itself meaningless. In those religions the soul eventually becomes part of god and stops reincarnating e.i dies. It would also be a valid choice to kill yourself if you don't like your life now. All those miserable parents of hollowborn children? Kill yourself, maybe there are no hollowborn in the next life. That prostitute which you can pay to get the amulet from could just kill herself. Mearwald could kill himself rather than endure his madness. Aloth having an alcoholic father and seeing no way out - kill himself. Raedric killing his wife for being an Eothas worshiper - pointless. Suicide becomes a valid choice to any seemingly impassible problems rendering even death meaningless.

But how much time can you enjoy it? A million years? 2 million? A trillion? Even more than that? Then what? It *never* ends *ever*. Being able to "Awaken" doesn't help. In the end *everything* would be so boring as to be agony and then the realization kicks in that you can never ever get away from this existence. You'll go insane quite fast after that. In PoE's world (especially how Thaos' stupid, stupid vision wants it to be) it will always be the same and it wouldn't matter if you are a Godlike or Orlan, or named Jim, or Aloth, or Sagani, or whatever since you will be something else in a while. It's quite a concept - sameness because of its variety ;p

Also, Watcher powers are rarely used to solve sidequests. It's a real pain, because hey, you can read and manipulate emotions and absorb the knowledge of the dead. It's such a hilariously broken powerset, and we never get to use it in earnest. So... being reincarnated with no memories of your previous lives instead of having your existence erased utterly is pointless torture. ...Okay. it's an existential torture the same way anticipating your death in real life is. It doesn't matter that you don't remember anything, even if it turns out we reincarnate as something else in real life it would still be torture on an existential level. Eternal heaven is also torture in this regard. And *individual* life is pointless, because it's eternal and it is in that infinity that you fail to find meaning, the same way eternal heaven has no meaning. Life itself isn't pointless, but individual life is. Not to mention the never-changing nature of the gods keeps life static and unchanging to the point of everything being stuck in the same bubble and reincarnating infinitely becomes even more pointless.

I was a moon godlike priest of Berath with artist background from Vailia Priest - It came up once after the fight with the first bear in the cave after the tutorial. I could "ease" the dead trapper's spirit. It never mattered that I worshiped Berath. Moon godlike - Maybe once when a person told me "you aren't from around here." It also came up when I tried to put on the Woedica hood and it told me it doesn't quite fit right. Nothing with Pallegina which is strange. Artist - 2 times, once in the tutorial and once with Hylea (I think) Vailia - Once or twice. I remember clearly that I could understand what the spider-thing in the Endless Paths was telling me. I just remarked that it was a very old dialect. Pallegina was glad to meet a countryfellow.

Even if that was their intent, it still doesn't go anywhere and it's left hanging. Since we aren't doing a harmony analysis talking about nuances in the writing doesn't give any weight to it. I and, I assume, Voss aren't really looking for an "epic" story because those are boring. What you are actually seeing is the companion quests not ending on a "happy" note and that is only with Eder's quest since Sagani does complete her original task, her moping about what traditions mean (hint: nothing) doesn't give credence to an overarching theme of anything.

Тhe ending is another gripe I have with the story. Iovara coming out of nowhere and suddenly being very important even though we aren't given a reason for her importance. She just flat out telling us "lololol gods aren't real, DUH". The ending-tron 4000 alla Deus Ex: Human Revolution - choose your flavor of soul, which I'm entirely positive won't come up again in the sequel/expansion or it will but it will be so trivial as to be pointless. That's almost an objective fact, because we have like 7 choices and they having to write and create 7 different world states is madness on a developmental standpoint. Thaos completing his quest would still stop the hollow births which was 1/3rd of your quest (even though it wasn't). He empowering Woedica wouldn't matter to anyone except the other gods since they are programmed to not be able to affect the world in a physical way, unless they magically can now which opens another can of plot holes like "Why don't the other gods take more direct action against Thaos then?" "Why don't they have "Favored" people too?" "This universe doesn't have Ao to govern the gods, so they'll just wreck **** up" etc. etc. I think the third act was just rushed and that's why nothing in it makes any sense.

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about? The companions' stories revolve around the events leading up to and surrounding the main plot. Each of them is directly invested in the immediate setting and its themes, and their quests each draw attention to those themes - e.g. Durance on the nature of the divine, Pallegina with "animancy and social upheaval in the Dyrwood," Sagani on reincarnation, Grieving Mother's ties to the legacy, and so on. It would be difficult for the companions to be more critically tied to the game's worldbuilding and thematic elements. It seems to me that your complaint is, "this isn't KotOR 2." I can understand that. I mean, this game didn't have Visas Marr, and that's just points off. 8/10 - very good successor to BG and PS:T, but missing Visas Marr. But then, it was never supposed to. It does what it sets out to do, and what it sets out to do is essentially different from what other games set out to do. So, you are basically saying they are walking exposition dispensers? I agree with that completely, that doesn't mean they are integral to the plot ;p I adore what they've done with PoE, I'm just saying there is still some wasted potential that can be rectified in the expansion. Also, companions are a sore spot for me. ;p

I think that's a case of apophenia e.i seeing patterns and meanings where there are none. Your interpretation sounds interesting, but it should've been explored more if that was their intent. And even then a theme of "unanswered questions" would be a more valid approach even though only 3 questions weren't answered. Your past self's "Are there gods?", Eder's "Why did my brother fight for Readceras?" and Durance's "Why doesn't Magran speak to me?" (I'm not even sure about the last one, because I ditched Durance since I was a priest myself)

Yeah, sorry but it's obvious you didn't play Inquisition. The reveal has a crapload of foreshadowing spread out across all the game, and the post-credit scene explicitely mentions why the Elder One was able to act out his plot and how X person was able to help. If you're going to critique plots, at least critique plots you actually know about. Yeah, you are right. Good, then +1 for Bioware ;p

Like I said, Inquisition is broken on PC and I haven't played it much, but Morrigan giving you the treaties and the choice wasn't something Flemeth couldn't have done and even does, because Morrigan was just a messenger. You aren't forced to take any companion in any of these games, but Kreia, Kaelyn, Safyia etc. are still very important. I can't expect all companions to be integral to the plot of course, but some involvement from some of them would be nice ;d Also, now that we've mentioned it NWN2 HAS a forced companion - what's-her-face! The farm girl! And I don't recall anyone hating her or hating that you have to take her with you.

I'm not singling them out because of spite, but because they are the only other well known company which makes RPGs on a fairly regular basis. I could say Larian studios too, but their writing is fundamentally different than either Obsidian's or Bioware's and can't really be used as an example. Origins is an awful example of my arguments, because nobody had any impact on the main story (that being stopping the Archdemon and collecting allies). Inquisition is broken on PC and haven't played it much, but according to a friend of mine the story is the usual dross and the companions are just there. DA2 is actually an interesting take on the problem, because that game didn't have an overarching story and it was made stronger for it. The companions were able to shine more. Sorry but I completely disagree. In Origins especially, take the fist two companions you get, Alistair and Morrigan; one is the only other member of the order you belong to and shares the same quest as you, can become king and lead the final battle against the archdemon, or can even be the one to kill the archdemon, the other can play a large part in the final decisions you make and the final battle by giving you a choice. Inquisition story is dross, real dross, but again, the companions do all feel a part of the story, that is one thing you can say about it. I agree I prefer it when they do feel more a part of the story and I was a little disappointed that there wasn't a kind of twist concerning any of them tbh. And Aloth's Leaden Key conversation felt a bit forced imo. See, the difference between my examples and Morrigan and Alistair is that the game and the story would've happened regardless of their presence (Morrigan and Alistair's). And you are basically saying "they help you with your quest! See, they matter to the story!" which isn't what I'm trying to say ;d In MotB the story wouldn't even happen without Safiya and couldn't be completed without Kaelyn's involvement. In KotOR 2 Kreia IS the story etc.

I'm not singling them out because of spite, but because they are the only other well known company which makes RPGs on a fairly regular basis. I could say Larian studios too, but their writing is fundamentally different than either Obsidian's or Bioware's and can't really be used as an example. Origins is an awful example of my arguments, because nobody had any impact on the main story (that being stopping the Archdemon and collecting allies). Inquisition is broken on PC and haven't played it much, but according to a friend of mine the story is the usual dross and the companions are just there. DA2 is actually an interesting take on the problem, because that game didn't have an overarching story and it was made stronger for it. The companions were able to shine more.

I want to discuss a different topic about the companions (as opposed to their ineffective and useless builds). That topic concerns their role in the story. Admittedly the story doesn't really go anywhere, but it still rubs me the wrong way that companions are so disconnected from it. Disconnected as in *they don't have any part in it*. They kinda feel like Bioware's walking issue dispensers that you play therapist with for a while. Remember most of the companions in KotOR2, especially Kreia. I suppose G0T0, Mandalore, the Handmaiden and Mira/Hanharr don't have an active role in it, but I'll excuse it because the overall story is so beautifully crafted that that doesn't matter. In MotB Kaelyn was the highlight, but Safyia and Gann also had very important roles. One of Many and Okku were baggage, because they were the "choice" companions and they couldn't be very important without breaking the plot. And now comes PoE... every companion feels like a puppet with dialogue who has no real impact or anything with the main plot. Aloth kinda tries with his ties with the Leaden Key, but it's not his hand that guides anything. Durance *maybe* with his role in the Godhammer bomb, but he feels like he would be more interesting if we were actually playing at the time of that war. It's not because they can all die, because in MotB you could eat all of your companions and they would still be important. It feels like a wasted opportunity, because companions shouldn't be some random people you happen to stumble across while doing something totally irrelevant to them. Maybe I'm just spoiled with KotOR 2, MotB and the other Obsidian games, but I kind of expect more from Obsidian (in contrast to Bioware, for example). What do you think? Do I just have huge expectations and I should just shut my mouth, because the companions are awesome the way they are? Or have I missed anything and they actually DO have a role in the story?

Thaos is wrong on a fundamental level that is plainly obvious and that is what makes him a bad villain. Kreia in KOTOR 2 wasn't wrong and neither was Myrkul in MotB for devising the Wall of the Faithless even if it was for selfish reasons. Thaos' logic jumps through several hoops to come to the conclusions he had. It's based on countless speculations and assumptions he had no way of knowing are right. We have real life as evidence of this and saying PoE's world is different in that regard is nonsensical. In the end all individual life in PoE's world is pointless and an existential torture because it never ends, even if Rymrgand says differently. I think he's lying, like all gods are lying because they have no real power. Their existence isn't strength, it's a never-ending loop they were programmed with and is as much torture as all souls go through. The "Watcher", who also doesn't have any real power, just kind of stumbles in the way of Thaos and is just a very talented individual to be able to stop him. The only power comes from the Engwithan machines which are heavily hinted at to be the work of animancy. All in all the whole plot is kind of a case of "the blind leading the blind" with nobody being competent enough to actually do something of value or lasting impact. The only ones with the power were the Engwithans even if their conclusion was moon logic, it still propelled the world forward. They were right about existence being torture, but not of the WHY of it. Maybe i am wrong and am missing some vital part of information that ties it all together, I don't know. Of course, what everyone else said, Thaos' motivations are murky at best and his allegiance with Woedica doesn't make any sense. I don't think she gives him any power, because as I said before the gods have no real power and they are programmed to not be able to influence the world in any physical way.

If you ignore the follow up quest (since my game crashes on the outside of Raedric's hold and I had to teleport with the console) the ending slide says that Raedric kills Kolsc and murders EVERYONE in Gilded Vale and that place becomes a graveyard, devoid of all life and nobody ever goes there.