Nick_i_am

Yeah, i very much agree with Llyranor above, some games (particually RTSs and action games) use 'optional objectives', to take an example from Mech Warrior 4, there is a mission where you have to attack a base, but their is a radar network in the way and your objective becomes to blow it up before it can alert the base. So blow it up in time or advoid it somehow, or get detected. If detected however, it's not an instant game over, you just get your commander dude calling you a moron and when you get to the base you find powered up and ready mechs rather than powered down ones which could be salvaged 'in tact' once you take over the base (assuming you dont give the pilots time to get them fired up). A simple example, but one that very much helps immersion. Another point along the same lines would be that games actually tell you what a 'game over' means. Okay, so sometimes they HAVE to force you to reload, but it would be nice if they could tell you the effects that your failure had on yourself and the world (not so relevent for if you die, but if you get a game over on being spotted or captured for example).

Is it CyberForce: Missionstorm?

Yeah, Mech Commander was RT. Is it one of the early Warhammer 40k games?

There is nothing wrong with necrophilia.

and by storytelling you mean somthing more than 'get waterchip, mutants lol, boom *walk walk* boom' Game Over! After all, one of the strenghs of design of fallout was that you could complete the game in 15 minutes or so if you really wanted to (and knew how). That the 'story' is as a story should be, you are lead by the information you have and NOT where you are and arn't allowed to travel.

it's probably been in this thread before (at least, it BETTER be), but 'Apathy is death'.

The only acceptable anime character is the giant robot, the more improbable the better.

Yeah, this is a point worth going over again, people complaining about somthing that MAKES SENSE in the game world because 'boohoo I can't go on random killing sprees' is pretty lame. But people seem to be confusing immersion with ability to roleplay. As a roleplaying game, Deus Ex was AWFUL, it's a completely linear story with little scope for character development, 'forcefed PC personality' (as far as convos/major quests went) and little freedom within the gameworld outside of the immediate level. However, the combination of a belivable (and interesting) gameworld, the illusion of freedom, a decent amount of diologue and NPCs, different ways to approch individual situations on a small scale and an interface that encoraged interation with the world (pick up chairs and throw them at people for fun!) as well as basic character editing (invantory + skills, but still simple) made for a game that, if enjoyed by the player, could be highly IMMERSIVE. But NOT a good roleplaying game, just a 'pretend one'. The point is that talking about this I wish that Deus Ex WAS a good roleplaiyng game, in the same way that the aforementioned Fallout and Arcanium are, but as it stands the story is way waaay too 'on rails' for such a thing to be possible. As for 'artificial devices' even HL2's 'weapon dip' as mentioned before was a very nice feature, even though you could still shoot at the NPCs face if you hit the shoot button while the gun was dipped.

They were the best in any game that I've played. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's not an excuse.

People who try to advoid admiting that they simply picked their nose.

Stupid euro version.

He's also been making civ4, my GUESS would be that his next project will either be a new Alpha Centurai game, somthing completely new or a new Xcom game. We will have to wait and see. Also, Llyranor and I like to play Civ4, so we might contact you on xfire some time to see if you are up for a game.

Yeah, Sid owns the rights to Xcom, and is apparently a fan. These days he is the ONLY man I would trust to make an xcom remake, the latest 'remakes' weren't even freaking Turn Based, gj @ missing the point.

Wait, didn't NPCs in Deus Ex get a little bit ticked off if a cyborg goverment agent started waving guns at them? That was probably part of it for me, I can't remember if they did or not, but I played as if they would. If I were to play the game (for the first time) these days it would be WAY less immersive, (if at all) because I would be delibrately trying to break the game at any chance I could just to see if it was possible. Another annoying thing in DX which is more of an immersion breaker (I feel) then 'you can't kill this important NPC' was a cabnet in the UNATCO HQ that could be opened by force. Throw a nade at it? fine, get the loot. Shoot a rocket at it and the whole building desends on your orifices.

wait, what?

What are you guys talking about, I kick people in the crotch for fun. Also, isn't the Codex basically the Obsidian forums with an unhealthy obsession with Fallout, more flaming and an average IQ 20 points lower?

I support this notion, Magical Volo is my hero.

Wait, the BG2 romances were awful.

For a nice tactical TB fix Xcom or Silent Storm are your best bets.

Yeah, definitely no arguments over freedom in Fallout, I do love those games, it was always just other niggles I had that stopped me being 'immersed', even though I was having buttloads of fun. ...and in psyco mode. Arcanum I need to get back into, but basically shared the same niggles for me in 'immersion'. In both cases I found the high reliance on stats/levels + the niggly combat and 'not entirely friendly' interfaces to be way more immersion-breaking than not being able to kill an NPC that would break the game. Sure, they both are but the first tends to seem more important to me. As such then it would seem that it's way more about what in a game immerses us. It was really the atmosphere mixed with the 'illusion of freedom' that sucked me in, it COULD have been more restrictive than it was and I still would have been immerses as long as the restrictions either didn't get in my way or 'made sense'. Also, features such as 'rightclick to pick somthing up, dont just walk over it' to the 'pepperspray the lasers to sneak past them' helped hugely. As you described though, there really wasn't enough of a sense of 'crime and punishment' that despite having an 'illusion of freedom' it was still very much assumed that you would 'do what you were meant to' that there was deviance in the path, but not in the result and, as suggested by your name, this would not be an ideal case for you. It would seem that THIS is what is really important to you in terms of immersion, that the world makes sense as a WORLD, not just a game with some freedoms...which really I should think about more before throwing my mouth around GUFFAW. Esspesally since I have ranted about exactly the same thing in the past, how important 'crime and punishment' is to a truely good RPG. However, this was not the first thing I assosiated with 'immersion' (for example, one of the games that has most immersed me in the world has been Homeworld). So yeah, I DO agree with all your points, I just wasn't clear enough on why I didn't find them to be immersion-breaking. *huggles*

As soon as you turn this from arguing over the points presented to 'you're just an idiot lol u can't see my point of view' is the point where you win. Also, the point was always that I agreed with you, I just didn't feel that such things would break immersion because the average player (me) wouldn't try them, but actually, I DID try them, and loaded and reloaded the two instances that you described over and over, and if THAT isn't immersion breaking then nothing is. Go Go memory powers, but meh, it was a long time ago, and my impression of the game looking back is STILL 'oooh, I can find out Annas killswitch and blap her on the spot, or shoot her on the aircraft so that she never shows up on the platform'. Likewise the 'save my brother or let him get shot up while I laugh'. There WERE limitations, but there was also a LOT of freedom, and for someone who didn't enjoy morrowind it's pretty much the only RPG I can think of where this level of 'sandbox' applies and feels somewhat 'real'. The only other one being Fallout1/2. If however, you can point me to a game that does it better, I would be interested to know. Additionally doesn't the fact that I said 'for some reason I found the more 'RPG' sections (the ones with actual NPCs and not just full of baddies)' say anything to you, since all the flaws you pointed out were directly related to combat.

Wait, if each xbox360 sold means that Microsoft loses money then shouldn't all the linux losers be buying them? ...not that i'm trying to get more off-topic prejudice thrown around this thead.

This is no place to discuss your sexual fantasies either.

Don't bother with Soldier of Fortune, it pretty much sucked. If you really want to do disgusting things in first person then just get postal 2. As for Deus Ex, the point was that I felt immersed because I tried to immerse myself, or rather, didn't try to do anything that JUST WOULDNT MAKE ANY FREAKING SENSE. 'Opps, turns out JC was a psyco lol'. No. On this logic Morrowind is the most immersive game in the world. ...which to some it probably is. As for actions/reactions in Deus Ex, com...wait, doesn't just about every RPG on the face of the planet have immersion breaking crap like this? Sure, you might be able to kill the story critical dude, but even in these cases the devs still set it up so that doing so pretty much dooms you or just breaks the game, this isn't an excuse, but by the same argument KotoR can't even start be be remotely immersive. 'Why can't I go to every planet in the universe/why can't I hack of anyones limbs/why can't I moon the jedi council'. Again though, this isn't an excuse, but devs doing more work so that a few psycos can feel satisfaction in not breaking the game while they muder the entire population of the world, meh. And stop projecting, Llyranor, you stupid stupidface.

why hasn't anyone said 'things that suck threads' yet? Oh, right, because it's lame