Hormalakh

You CAN make a difference believe it or not, albeit not as big of a difference than Obsidian can make. But you can contribute by offering suggestions to curb piracy of this game. I came up with a few that I listed, maybe others have other ideas too. Going on pirate bay could actually help as well, I'd suggest Obsidian puts some form of pay what you want on their pirate bay torrent pages. You could leave nice comments on the torrent page too, being rude won't get anyone to donate. However, being nice, and suggesting that the devs deserve at least a little bit for their work could net some donations at the least. All those things are pretty much what I meant when I said do something that would actually help Obsidian. The OP wants us to grab pitchforks and storm the Pirate ship in an attempt to tear it down which simply a) wont work and b) be a massive waste of time and energy. Putting out good will and talking up P:E, on the other hand, will have an actual effect. No I don't. Pitchforks aren't good weapons anyway. They're what 1D4 or something?

I would be interested in hearing your counterclaims (and evidence) to the article especially the DRM bit. Really. Please be specific though.

I liked what you wrote so much I wanted others to read it twice.

First of all, no amount of hate is going to eradicate piracy. If it worked EA headquarters would have already become a smouldering hole in the ground. Then again loss of profits from piracy is not all that huge and I would be more then happy to help kickstart an expansion pack for PE if I like the game. I bet a lot of other people would too. Probably a lot more than those who backed PE itself. Also I don't believe in the argument that piracy kill the PC video game industry. Sure games on PC get pirated a lot, but there are a lot more PC owners than the owners of any single type of console out there. If releasing games on PC was unprofitable, they would have been gone by now. Nobody's advocating hate. But supporting piracy by defending (or dismissing those who say that piracy is wrong, or to say that piracy isn't an issue) it isn't really helping to support Obsidian.

Well, the let me reiterate my statement. While people, who pirate PE, certainly aren't getting any love from me, I don't support any zero tolerance policy against them based on the fact that they chose to pirate the game that I backed and they didn't. I think the whole point of crowd-sourcing game budget is to make the game and not to make huge profits from sales. So why bother with all the hate? Because the sales affect the expansion pack. No sales or really low sales means no expansion pack or a really crappy one. I don't think the developers would make huge profits from sales in either case. Low sales or no sales also means, in the long run, that huge block-buster type games will be relegated only to console hand-me-downs. We won't get an exclusive PC-only game with huge million dollar budgets. The budgets will only be as big as people are willing to kickstart (which, yes I guess could become $100mil in kickstarted funding, but we'll have to wait and see). And finally, people should get paid for their work. If they make something and did it because it's their job and expected to make a living doing it, people should pay them. I don't believe DRM is going to be the solution for P:E, but I think that either a "if you pirated, please donate whatever you think is right" or something to that effect would be decent. Ultimately, however, Obsidian should make that decision.

This thread deals specifically with P:E which isn't being invested in through a publisher. The only "suits" here are the developers of the game and us, the backers and gamers.

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption? I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that. If you cant decipher that is it meant less literally than that, then I wont be able to explain it to you. *woooooosh* is the sound of how correct your assumption are. I take it that you have no more "arguments" to make and have now continued to waste other readers' time by using ad hominem attacks. Very well. I'll use this space to make my case again. Pirates hurt us the gamers, because they disuade developers from making PC-only single player games. What we are left with is console hand-me-downs which many of us here on the forums have hated (see DA2-bashing threads). For us to demand better games from developers and then when we are given an opportunity through a kickstarted game to not ask pirates to stop, we are continuing this trend of PC-only single player trash. The one or two games a year is insufficient. We as players (and backers) need to do something.

HAHAHA. Imoen bothered you that much huh? If I'm not mistaken they aren't using roll-based stats anyway, so hopefully everyone will have the same base numbers to work with. Like Fallout. Not sure though.

The way I see it, this was a thread that would show up sooner or later. It deals directly with the game (and its future piracy, etc), and there has been a lull in the forums. Let's discuss it now, cognitive dissonance and all, and get it out the way. Of course, I didn't know there would be an update coming up on Tuesday...

The only thing that thing that we can do is be as awesome of a community as possible. I was swayed into trying and buying STALKER simply because of how cool the community was and how riveting their stories of The Zone were. Also, if we see someone mentioning that they're going to/have pirated PE we can just say "Hey, Obsidian are really cool and it'd be great if you supported them." Attacking a person rarely works to change their mind, and may only further validate their own opinions about pirating the game. Other than that PR is entirely in Obsidian's court. If they conduct themselves in a manner similar to CDPR (minus that legal rumpus) and their game is good they'll build a fantastically devoted following for Project Eternity in no time. As for the CD-key thing, as far as I'm aware isn't PE digital distribution only? The only physical copies going out (as far as I'm aware) will be for the backers who pledged extra for them, and that might be a bit unfair to those people. Good point about the CD-key. Didn't think that one through. I don't believe I've been attacking anyone. My apologies if it has seemed that way.

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption? I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that. I've also asked for Obsidian to be clear with us (which they have been) and for us to think about DRM (or any other possible solutions to piracy against PE).

There was a legitimate story reason why she has those stats. Open the spoiler if you wish for the answer. Yeah but that isn't much of an excuse when you consider that your own character can roll a 8, 8, 18, 16, 14 12. Whatever your character lacks in being a turd, she gains. It evens out the character points I agree though, it's pretty stupid.

I really like your ideas and wish I had thought of them too. I don't imagine DRM is going to be the future, but it's a good way to get people to start thinking of ideas. Everyone, including me, hates DRM. I just thought it was a necessary evil. Apparently it doesn't have to be.

Not wanting DRM doesn't equate to piracy, and the way Obsidian will get the fans of their games to tell pirates "hey, that isn't cool" is by building goodwill, the first step of which is getting rid of DRM. CDPR have realized this, and as a result the pc community have rallied behind them. Their game still gets pirated, but despite that it's hugely successful and has a devoted following who do tell pirates to piss off. Oh I see. You just think not having DRM is a good choice. I have no problem with that. Is there anything else that we (backers,gamers) can do however to make piracy less appealing? What about the developers? What if they put a serial number on the CD. Would that help? What about another copyright protection not as obtrusive as DRM. Would that be ok for you?

I didn't say it was completely illogical, I said that it has no merit in this community-backed game. If there is a bigger picture, I'd like you to show it to me, not by shouting me down. My OP was not meant to be inflaming. Your post however is. For whatever reason, asking you to say "As a backer of PE, I believe that pirating PE is bad" has made you angry. I am just not sure why. As a backer, I want to see a bigger expansion pack and I believe that most other backers here do too. Obsidian has stated that they will use the funds that they get from the sales to make an expansion pack. If we have 0 sales, we don't get an expansion pack. Every bit of sales helps get a better expansion pack. I believe that most backers want this.

There was a legitimate story reason why she has those stats. Open the spoiler if you wish for the answer.

This is called "moving the goalposts." Whenever the "objections" of pirates are met, they just say "but we meant this instead." P:E IP is not theft from the Public Domain. That's like a whole other level of delusional thinking right there. How exactly did PE steal from the public doman? By asking from forum members what they'd like to see in their game that they backed? From now on Sophos, I expect you to keep your ideas to yourself, make a game from it, and then give that game out to the public for free.

And by kickstarters rules and agreements pledgers would have right to demand their money back in case which Obsidian (or any other project creator in kickstarter) don't deliver rewards which they have promised. So taking DRM free version in this point of the table would probably be more damaging than what pirates could ever do. As some people would see that orginal offer for drm free version was only marketing ploy to get more backers for the project and they would probably cause bad press for the project and Obsidian itself, which could cause monetary lose even in the far future. Greed company digma is easy to get, but much harder to get rid off. And apparently reading is hardest of all. I specifically stated that backers would get a DRM-free version. Backers aren't the pirates here.

As a backer of this game I don't demand DRM. But I do demand other backers and Obsidian supporters to STOP the defending piracy of PE and to start saying, "Yah, piracy is an evil." My thread consisted of variable proposals to the backers and the developers. The developers so far have followed through on their part. They haven't implemented DRM and have made the game easy to access when it comes out. My issue is actually now with the backers. Why are you defending piracy for this game? How can you support a company and also come here and support piracy for PE. All I want is for people to say, "Yes, if I see someone pirating this game - which doesn't have DRM - then I will tell them to go an buy it and to stop pirating it." Community deterrence by speaking out against pirating PE and not actively putting your backed game on pirate sites is what you can do.

This thread is about P:E not any other game. For your ME example, the fact that your friends said it was amazing was the reason you went out and bought it finally. If they hadn't you wouldn't have experienced that game at all. Pirating it didn't help you make a decision. Seeing the game and experiencing it did. You could have just as easily gone to a friends house, or he could have let you borrow his copy, and you would have made that decision. It had nothing to do with piracy. Piracy didn't make that sale. Good word of mouth did.

I'm signing off for the day. I'll see you guys around. Remember, say no to .

Except Valve also suffered a huge blow to goodwill when it first came out with Steamworks. For some reason, it survived. Gamers still stuck with them. Even Valve uses DRM to some extent. So is Valve smart for using Steam? Or stupid for using DRM? I'm confused. Why the **** not? The biggest companies in the business can't stop piracy and I guarantee the money they are sinking into trying to prevent it far eclipses the ENTIRE budget P:E raised on kickstarter. DRM not only fails to prevent piracy but it costs actual sales as well by turning people off. Really? You're asking this question? You think the pirates are your friends? You think they care about how you as a person, Dream, get to enjoy your game? If you are a backer or a gamer, do you think they care that you paid for the game to be made and are taking advantage of you? You and I have had our share of arguments in other threads. If I was a pirate and was raining on your parade in other threads about how the game should be this way and it should be that way and you didn't like it, do you think I had a right as a non-buying gamer to come here on this forum and take up the developers' time to spout my ideas? Do you think it's fair that websites that will undoubtedly host torrents of P:E will make thousands of $ in ad revenue per month and won't be willing to share even a tiny portion of that money with the developers of this game? A game that you, as a buying customer, get to enjoy? The biggest companies in the business might not be able to stop piracy, but each backer here can do their fair share by saying, "**** you, pirate. I bought my game, you didn't. Go get your own."

Like I said, implementing DRM would be up to Obsidian. There have been other, more constructive ways that have been mentioned in this thread about how to reduce piracy. Those are also good efforts to take up. Just saying "well it's gonna happen, might as well let it" is not what we, as backers and gamers, should be doing.

They were not exaggerated. While I never played an Ubisoft game I am familiar with that kind of DRM. Ubisoft and Starforce aren't the only folks who tried that type of thing. It's exactly that type of DRM that got me to look for my first pirated game to begin with somewhere close to a decade ago now. I know I'm not the only person who ever got so fed up with DRM on a game they legitimately bought that they went and sought out ways on the internet to remove it. Lo and behold, there waiting to be discovered was the 'pirate' community. I read the article, though scanned the second half. I like Tweakguides, and have used his guides in the past. I learned quite a bit about nVidia forceware from him, he's got a bit to learn about piracy and copyright though. As decent an article as that one is (defintely one of the better ones I've seen), as Ink Blot already said, it totally overlooks or ignores a great many important aspects of the piracy and copyright debate. Especially some of the legal aspects of it. Piracy, copyright, intellectual property, the first sale doctrine, consumer rights, basic legal rights, and all the other things that tie into this is actually a pretty complicated subject to understand as there are so many things to consider. One could easily double this size of his article still possibly not touch all the important aspects. It is definitely not a black and white issue, and not all piracy is bad for a company. This whole thread is really a non issue though. Obsidion has already stated there will be no DRM (not including the Steam version). Will there be pirates? Yes. Should we worry about them? No. As someone else said. The best thing to do is get people you know interested in getting the game who aren't already interested or know about it. No doubt there are people who don't know about PE out there that would love to play whatever it becomes. I have you basing your evidence on nothing but your own word. I have him basing evidence on experts in the field. I am more likely to believe him until you bring expert evidence to the contrary. Read the article for the expert evidence. The second half is where he starts talking about DRM. Don't be lazy in your argument. As for all the finer "points" about copyright infringement, they have nothing to do with my post. I am referring specifically to P:E and its piracy. Issues like the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights, and consumer rights really have nothing to do with this. I want backers to stand with me against pirating P:E. If you thought that P:E or Obsidian was violating the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights or consumer rights, why aren't you speaking out about it? I am finding it quite difficult to understand why people like you are against backers standing up for their respective rights to benefit from the sale of a game. As I have spelled out before, the improvement in sales of the game directly benefits those who backed this game and future buyers of the P:E game by allowing them a richer expansion pack experience.

If I knew enough about encryption systems and DRMs I might come up with a good answer. Unforunately I am not an expert. In regards to Russia, apparently -as someone else said here- one of the biggest markets who do pirate games, I wouldn't see it as being a problem to use Starforce there for the first few months, if it made economic sense. The loss of goodwill there is minimal and the gains from reduced piracy are more likely. That is of course a decision Obsidian would have to make. If they do so, I would support them. Hampering piracy for even the first few days or weeks of sales does enough to see results. If it didn't, companies wouldn't continue to use DRM. Please read the whole OP - many of your questions have been answered in either the articles I've linked to or my own post.