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Fluffle

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Posts posted by Fluffle


  1. My current discussion here may seem off-topic. That's why I am going to stop now. We can continue this per PM or in a new thread with a different topic.

    However, I don't think it was completely off-topic. Romances in video games come with expectations, hopes, dreams, wishes and sadly also with entitlement and a huge potential to be disappointed.

    And everyone will find their own way to deal with such disappointment. I would just like to ask that some of us stop accusing Obsidian of trying to trick their backers with intent.

     

    If you feel mistreated by Obsidian then try to be the better person. Try not to answer that by mistreating Obsidian in return. Try to be open to the possibility that they did not hurt/disappoint/mislead you with intent.

    • Like 2

  2.  

     

     

    True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

     

    It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

     

    Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

     

    And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

     

    You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.

     

     

    You're comparing the ending of the final product to the marketing of said product. Nice try, but I'm not buying.

     

    ...Although I technically did.

     

     

    My problem in this current debate is, that Obsidian is being accused of INTENTIONALLY misleading people into giving them money. In some countries that is a serious accusation and a crime actually. Obsidian is being accused of having committed a crime.

     

    In some countries that accusation is so serious in fact, that someone who makes it could be sued for defamation if it cannot be proven.

     

    If we could take a step down in this debate and say we were disappointed. Okay. Or that we would have wished for more information during the campaign. Okay. But to accuse Obsidian to deliberately mislead their own backers. That's huge in my eyes.

     

    I actually wonder if such an accusation is in accordance with the Site Rules here.

     

    And if you are truly so upset and feel so betrayed then I wonder: What is left for you to do? What are you doing here? What will you be doing? You feel betrayed. How are you going to react? If you feel cheated for your money, should you not ask for refunds? If you feel Obsidian committed a crime, should you not consider legal actions?

     

    You are on Obsidian's own forum. You are a guest here on these boards. And that is how you treat your host?

     

    Could you at least consider to drop the "intentional"? Could you at least maybe admit that you are at least partially responsible for how you spend your money?

    • Like 3

  3.  

    True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

     

    It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

     

    Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

     

    And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

     

    You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.


  4. Crowdfunding is like investing in stocks. It is an investment you hope has good returns. It might only end up giving you crappy .5% returns. People treat it like it's a commission for an artist. It's not. It's an investment that may or not pan out.

     

    Yeah exactly.

     

    Obsidian did not make any guarantees that Edér would be a romance option.

    They did also not make any guarantees that he would NOT be a romance option.

     

    So one couldn't have known in advance. Yet some people still donated money to the campaign anyway. Even though they were aware that both options were possible. And now that the option that they dislike has been realized they feel betrayed and intentionally misled by Obsidian.

     

    And my standpoint is this:

    Obsidian is NOT responsible for someone spending money on a product of which they didn't know in advance if they'd like it or not. If someone didn't know for sure and YET spend money on it anyway that is their risk and their responsibility.

     

    Someone's trust or good faith in Obsidian does not bind Obsidian to make their product after that someone's liking and demands.

    Because, exactly as you say, donating to a crowd funding campaign is not like a commission for an artist.

    • Like 1

  5. You admit that a crowd funding campaign needs trust. But why does it need trust?
    If you knew all facts you wouldn't need any trust. You need the trust for the very reason that you don't know all the facts.

    But that is the very thing you are complaining about: That you didn't know the facts.

     

    That is exactly what a crowdfunding campaign is about. Spending money on something you don't know everything about.

    And that is a risk.

     

    Actually this incident should show you what kind of risk this is.


  6.  

     

    Stressing that characters might not get a romance is not the same as saying they will not. One is a possibility, the other is definitive. What you are essentially saying is that I should not crowd fund unless I have blind faith in the company. If I can't trust them, then I am definitely not going to fund them. THIS IS MY POINT. Crowd funding requires trust. How is this a difficult concept?

     

    Anyone is going to tell you that trust is essential in a crowd funding project! What do you think the point of the updates is?! To reassure backers that their trust is well placed. Devs aren't doing this because they have nothing better to do. If anything, it's a waste of resources. They do it because it's essential to not only ensuring that backers don't ask for a refund, but to draw other backers in by demonstrating that they can be trusted.

     

     

    Yes, because unless you have money to waste it is far too valuable to spend on a product about which you do NOT know the definitive facts.

     

    A crowd funding campaign is NOT about definitive facts. You only get the hard facts after the game comes out. Only then can you know for sure what is in the game and what is not in the game. Only then can you make the decision of buying a product of which you know for certain what it contains and what it does not contain.

     

    You do not know that in a crowdfunding campaign. It requires TRUST, yes. Obviously your trust was disappointed. So you'll have to make the decision if you would support another crowd funding campaign by Obsidian or not.

     

    We seem to have a different idea of what trust during a crowdfunding campaign means. For me, it means that I do NOT know all the facts about the product and DESPITE that I spend money on it. I am spending money on a product of which I cannot be certain that I will like it. That's almost crazy if you think of it and can only be justified with A LOT OF TRUST.

     

    But that trust is no guarantee that I'm going to like (every aspect of) the product. Not at all.


  7. In that case I would say, if you think that way, you should probably not join a crowd funding campaign. Then you really should wait until the game is out and buy it based on hard facts. So you know what you pay for before buying it. You wouldn't feel betrayed then.

     

     

    As I just stated, crowd funding is about good faith. You are trusting them to deliver a product with your money. To sit there and say that people have no right to feel slighted because they were mislead is even harder to fathom than my thought process. The issue is not that they failed to deliver. The issue is that there was no explanation given for why. Crowd funding cannot work if there is no trust between the funder and the funded. How can companies expect to get funding without making people feel as if they can be trusted with their money? 

     

     

    But people already explained in this thread.

     

    The devs were very careful to speak of relationships only NOT of romances.

    Also they said characters whose authors would not feel it, would not get a romance.

    They also stressed that not everyone would be satisfied/pleased with the choices of the romances.

     

    And based on those statements people got their hopes up that Edér must be romanceable. Otherwise Obsidian would intentionally be misleading people.

     

    Yes, that is really not easy for me to understand.

     

    In any case, I find it very unlikely that we reach a common ground. I think the only thing we could maybe agree on is that in future you should not join a crowd funding by Obsidian anymore if you feel they are misleading people intentionally?

    • Like 3

  8. For me, personally, I like it when they do NOT announce in advance who the romantic interests are and who has which sexuality.

    Because then I tend to put too much weight on that one aspect of a character. A character is so much more than just this one part of them. And I don't want to reduce them to their sexuality or romance-ability only. But I admit that I do that to a certain degree if they announce in advance who the romances are.

     

    This might actually make me miss/neglect interesting other characters who happen to not be romanceable or happen to be "incompatible with my mainchar's sexuality".

    • Like 2

  9. So, Obsidian never promised a romance with Edér.

    But that is not the problem. The problem apparently is that they never specifically excluded a romance with him. They knew he was a popular choice for a romance, they left the possibility open and by that they mislead people into spending money on something that they would not deliver.

     

    Wow. Alright. I'm trying to understand this kind of process of thoughts.

     

    In that case I would say, if you think that way, you should probably not join a crowd funding campaign. Then you really should wait until the game is out and buy it based on hard facts. So you know what you pay for before buying it. You wouldn't feel betrayed then.

    • Like 2

  10.  

     

    I think you are massively misunderstanding the issue: transparency. Considering the number of people who back this game and were looking forward to romances, myself among them, the manner in which they portrayed the "relationships" in the game during development comes across as a bit underhanded. I mean, considering that it appears that Eder and Pallegina can't be romanced, with Eder probably being the most sought after romance, it seems slightly mean-spirited/spiteful to say "We've added relationships!" only to reveal that it's not with the characters everyone wanted. If they had been transparent about it, there probably wouldn't have been as much of an issue. If they felt that adding a relationship would be detrimental to the character, or simply did not fit the character's personality, or did not feel confident in their ability to write a decent romance, I'd have no problem, so long as they explained that. However, the fact that they didn't seems like they intentionally mislead people. 

     

    Honestly, I'm tempted to say that they didn't mention this specifically to appease the backers who wanted the romances. "Hey, we gave you what you wanted, just not how you wanted it, which essentially means we didn't give you what you want, but thought we were clever about it... Wait, you're mad?"

     

    A little honesty goes a long way, and this does not feel honest. Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, and they intend to do something in one of the DLCs, but if they don't, I feel like there's been a bit of a breach in trust. 

     

    Slightly mean-spirited and spiteful. Seemingly misleading people intentionally.

     

    That is not what they get for not including Edér. But for not being transparent about it. Okay. Then I seem to have misunderstand the problem. Is that really the actual problem here? So if the devs explained their decision to not offer Edér as a romance option, it would be okay then?

     

    As I said earlier the devs did once say they wouldn't offer romances for characters whose author didn't feel it. But I guess you'd have the specific author of Edér come here and explain thoroughly why Edér isn't available (despite so many people wanting that).

     

    I guess more transparency would not hurt. And if it would contribute to put some people's mind at ease, why not?

     

    • Like 2

  11.  

     

    And then he potentially goes and hooks up with someone who is at best an occasional consciousness in a man's body, so he was either lying to the watcher about his reasons (which is a mean thing to do to someone you respect) or he has been inconsistently written, both of which some people may see as narratively frustrating.

     

     

    And here is where the "agenda" kicks it. This is what the game will make you think about. If a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be in the body of a man. Does that make the first man gay? Is he supposed to like other men because he loves a woman inside a man's body?

     

    Oh boy... I need actual confirmation on this first before I continue. This is not worth it, if it's all based on speculation. I still hope it's true though!

    I don't understand how you could just pass off blatantly contradictory writing that practically retcons itself as people thinking the devs just have an agenda or whatever. You're either trolling or you're a major Obsidian fanboy.

     

    If you see me that way, why would you address me?

     

    If I was a troll then talking to me would be troll feeding. If I was an Obsidian fanboy I would be blind to any criticism at all. So there would be no point in talking to me about something Obsidian may have done wrong.

     

    There is no need to get on a personal level here. Please don't make assumptions about me as I won't make any about you. Let's be in peace.


  12.  

    @LittleKestrel you're not making that up, right? To me it sounds too good and too funny to be true. Damn. :w00t::biggrin::grin:

    Yep, it's a thing. Spoilering this for wall of text purposes, also I MAY me wrong with naming some of the lines (they aren't specified in the text) This is a direct copy paste mind you, all I've fixed is the formatting.

     

    Iselmyr: "If matters were... otherwise, I could see a lass like me with a right-fine lad like yerself."

     

    Iselmyr's smile turns bittersweet.

    Eder: "Always thought you were special, too. Shame you're stuck where you are."

     
    A quiet moment lingers between them.
         
    Iselmyr: "Gets a lass to wonderin'... aw, fye and coxfithers, pay me no heed."
     
    Iselmyr turns away, eyes cast down.
     
    Eder: "Hey. You can ask me."
     
    He touches the back of one of Aloth's hands in reassurance.

    Iselmyr: "I've wondered whit it might feel to have yer arms 'twining me. Yer lips on mine."

     
    Aloth's ears redden.
     
    Eder: "Uh... huh. Didn't think you meant- Wouldn't Aloth mind?"
    Iselmyr: "Ye dinnae conne him as I do. Poor lad has a kind, trusting heart. He wants that I should be happy."
    Eder: "If that's- if that's how he feels... I want you to be happy, too."
     
    He touches the outside of Aloth's hand again.
    Aloth's fingers spread and slide into place between Edér's. With Aloth's other hand, Iselmyr reaches up and runs his fingers down Edér's cheek, stepping closer as she does so.
     
    Suddenly, Aloth's eyes fly open. 
     
    Iselmyr is not behind them.
     
    He jumps back, shoving Edér away.

     

    Aloth: "What exactly are you doing?"

     

    Shock and indignation color his face.

    Eder: "Aloth?"
    Aloth: "Who else would I be, you idiot?!"
     
    Just then, Iselmyr's cackle erupts from his throat.
    Iselmyr: "Ooh, yer face, Edér! Only thing finer'n seeing it is feeling this lad's ire!"

     

    She laughs even harder.

    Iselmyr: "Fye, whit's that I feel? Might it be a kindlin' where-" 
     
    Iselmyr's laughs dissolve into a coughing fit from which Aloth finally emerges, furious and red-faced.

     

    Aloth: "I think we can all agree to forget that ever happened."

     

    He folds his arms and doesn't meet your eye or Edér's.

     

    Eder(or Aloth, not sure)"This all makes a lot more sense now, looking back."
     
    Edér's face is slack and sober. He blinks rarely, if at all.

    Eder: "Oh, now I get it. That's pretty good. Heh."

     

    Omg omg omg omg omg! This is too good! AHAHAHAHA! I love it!!! Damn, I can't wait to see this in the game!


  13. @Witness41920

    Before anyone thinks that I am the one calling the devs having an agenda: No that is not what I am doing.

     

    I was merely speculating that it will not take a lot of time before some people do. And I am NOT one of them.

    To me the term "agenda" has no value or meaning anymore. Some people use it as a place holder, a label, for "something I don't like".
    Everyone is supposed to know that an agenda is something inherently bad. And when you call something an "agenda" you can express your dislike or contempt for something without having to bother to explain why. Again, I am NOT doing that.

    I fear, other people might start doing that, based on my experiences on the topic of romances in video games throughout the decades.

    I personally would welcome and cherish a romance between Edér and Iselmyr.


  14. While I certainly agree in general that not including romances is not a slap in the face, this particular romance was the most asked for. Making it one of the only two that is not available is a poor reading of their playerbase at the least. This is especially true since as mentioned his reasoning is he's not in the right mindspace right now, which is clearly an excuse on the character's part/writers not being able to come up with a better reason seeing as he gets with apparently another party member. It's super weird to take one of the most requested romances and say not only can you not romance them, but this npc can.

     

     

    If I remember correctly the devs said that they did romances for the NPCs that the respective authors felt "right" to do. Actually I respect that. And I respect it all the more because I think they show backbone by not giving in to "popular demand".

     

    How do you think a romance with a character would turn out to be if the author of that character didn't feel it at all?

     

     

    It never ceases to amaze me. 

     

    It doesn't surprise me or bother me in the least that Eder is not attracted to the Watcher (regardless of gender). It's easy to understand that he simply may not be attracted to your character for whatever reason. It happens all the time in both life and fiction that characters aren't always attracted to one another and attraction, interest and/or love are not always reciprocated. 

     

    The same is true of any companion that isn't interested in the Watcher, why do they have to be? You can pine after whomever you want it doesn't always mean they're going to be open to a relationship. 

    And then he potentially goes and hooks up with someone who is at best an occasional consciousness in a man's body, so he was either lying to the watcher about his reasons (which is a mean thing to do to someone you respect) or he has been inconsistently written, both of which some people may see as narratively frustrating.

     

     

    And here is where the "agenda" kicks it. This is what the game will make you think about. If a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be in the body of a man. Does that make the first man gay? Is he supposed to like other men because he loves a woman inside a man's body?

     

    Oh boy... I need actual confirmation on this first before I continue. This is not worth it, if it's all based on speculation. I still hope it's true though!


  15.  

     

    So I went digging through the companion data text files out of curiosity, and Eder is definitely not player romance-able, which is gonna be a major bummer to a lot of people. He also doesn't get together with Xoti, it seems, which will cheer everyone up again until the read the next part.

     

     

    ... He can, however, and as a disclaimer I haven't gotten it to trigger in-game yet so I don't know if this is actually implemented or not, but he can get together with

    Iselmyr, even though she's in Aloth's body. Aloth is rather unenthused about this and talks to you about it. Personally, I think that's a bit icky for poor Aloth. Also, Eder constantly states he doesn't like dudes, and Iselmyr is kinda permanently in a man's body as a secondary personality. >.>

     

     

     

    Whaaaaat. Okay, I'm perfectly fine with Eder not being an option for the Watcher, but THIS (if true) really does seem like trolling on the devs' part. What the heck. 

     

    It's in the game data! I dunno the rules on image linking on this forum, but I can screenshot all the Eder/Iselmyr stuff and chuck it in an Imgur gallery or give you the directions to the data file itself for you to read if you need the proof.

     

    Omg, I love this! That's hilarious! If that is true, kudos to the devs! And I find that a very interesting way of exploring some romantic themes which better not be labeled. If you labeled that with terms from our world that would create a lot of hate and outrage.

     

    But to explore that possibility in Deadfire in this way. If that is really true, then that's a huge WOW for me. I would really love and respect that, that the devs would (dare) go there.

     

    Think about it, Edér falling for a woman in a man's body. Just the thought of how revolting this could be for some. And you can already hear the word in your mind.

     

    If this is true, it's just a matter of "when" not "if" the devs will be accused of having (yet another)... AGENDA

     

     

     

    • Like 1

  16. I don't know. I found the overland map in Storm of Zehir to be quite more lively and immersive. Yes it does remind me strongly of Storm of Zehir but I think I consider the Deadfire overland map actually a downgrade from the Storm of Zehir one.

     

     

    Still I'm very happy that they brought this kind of overland map back! I have wished for it to come back since Storm of Zehir!

    • Like 1

  17. Man I've been watching the Steam reviews as well and I agree. I would so love to see Deadfire get the "overwhelmingly positive" label. But for that 90%+ of the reviews must be positive. Currently "only" 86% are.

     

    And yes, many negative ones are due to bugs. It's a shame but it's "complaining" on a very high level of course.

    Some people might change/update their reviews when the bugs have been addressed. I really hope the game can reach the "overwhelmingly positive" label on Steam as well as I hope that it can keep the outstanding score of 90 on metacritic with 8.5 userscore.

    • Like 3

  18. Oh man, always this drama about romances in a video game.

    I see it that way, that romances are a topic where the developers simply cannot win/gain anything. They can only lose because no matter what they do, they cannot cater to all tastes, likes and preferences equally. Mind you not only the sexual preferences, but everything that involves the broader topic of romances.

    In this specific instance there seems that a certain character is not available for romance (though I guess it's not 100% verified yet). Rejection hurts, doesn't it? Even if its just by a fictitious character.

     

    Remember Pillars of Eternity 1, where there were no romances at all?
    Well seems almost better that way, doesn't it? Because then it's equal for everyone. Nobody will be able to romance any of the NPCs then. But now in Deadfire romances have been introduced, but Edér doesn't seem to be available. Well, shame on the developers!

    As I see it, the developers were very reluctant to introduce romances to the game series. I may have my suspicions as to why.
    All that drama that romances bring. Of course, the drama also happens when you don't include any romances. People will be outraged. So you introduce romances and you hope you will appease people. Oh no ho ho ho, you couldn't have been more wrong!

    Now people will be enraged because not every single possible preferences (and again I'm not only talking about sexual preference) was included: Edér doesn't seem to be romanceable.

    Must be an agenda by the devs. How dare they to not cater to my needs? It must be because they want to teach me a lesson! How dare they to teach me a lesson?!

    That's the great irony of the topic of romance. It creates so much fury, hate, frustration, resentment and contempt that in the end I think any reasonable developer would have to wonder if it's worth it. But don't expect any less contempt when you don't include them in the first place. People will always find a reason to make the devs lose on this topic, no matter what they do.

    As always, just my subjective opinion, which you may or may not agree to. :)

    • Like 2

  19. Greetz everyone,

    I read a German review saying that some of the new companions in Deadfire are rather shallow, with the notable exception of Xoti.

    But Tekehu was called "annoying", for example.

    I cannot play the game myself at the moment due to strict time constraints. But I would like to know this.

    In your opinion, are some of the new companions in Deadfire shallow and if so which ones? I hope you can diminish my worries!

    If you want to go into detail about a companion for explaining your opinion: Mild spoilers are okay. Please put heavier spoilers into spoiler tags though.

    Thanks, Fluffle.

    PS: Generally I'm interested in all new companions about this topic. But I'm especially interested in Tekehu. :wub:

    Also everything is relative of course. So comparisons to Baldur's Gate 2 or Dragon Age and Mass Effect games (minus Andromeda) would be appreciated.

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