Captain Shrek

You are welcome to disagree. Does not change the fact that in 'direct' damage Rogues rule. Also, the entire argument here is that Wizards can be DPS, but not as good as Rogues. Additionally, AoE spells do not require Per investment. Rather INT and RES benefit them more.

I have a feeling that this has not taken Crit into account. I remember the discussion Mutonator had with Matt. And I now my gut tells me that mutonator was right all along.

Hmm. Maybe I should have phrased that as Weaker Nuker/DPS? The wizard can not realistically contribute to the damage as much as other DPS classes, is what I wanted to say. Best to use that class as Controller. Cast slows and webs. Keep the baddies trapped while your ranged DPS (Which pretty much can outclass melee DPS any day) pet on them with guns.

Hmm. A crit chance of 5% constant is a bummer. I liked how D&D handled that based on the weapon. Add to those feats and you can build a char around crit-hit. And that is a fair trade. Right now, crit chance in PoE is a floating number that can quickly dominate the damage dealt. I kinda like it actually, as it makes the game much simpler.

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc. I'm guessing by "weakish" you are regarding hit points? Perception is the single most important stat to the Wizard, as their spells are utterly dependent on accuracy. If your wizard is getting hit, you are doing it wrong. Also, are you actually using Wizard for damaging spells?

I did. Makes classes pretty much useless. Fighters with Res and Dex max with might added practically made them fodder. Wizards with per and Dex maxed made them weakish wannabe nukers etc.

But why bother? Fighters are amzing tanks. They are designed TO BE tanks. Just mop up all enemies in Engagements and boom boom with rogues.

Cast web and slow. Those are my startes.

Halfway through, I realized that I could write a much smoother answer if I make the explanation in MMO terms : Wizards: Use as controlers. Max Int for AoE and Res for Duration. Ignore might and Con. Maybe add a bit Dex if you max out Int and Res. Fighters: Use as tank. Max out Int and Con. ignore everything else. Rogues: The DPS class. Max out Per. Increase Mig and dex equally for the almost inconsequential increase to DPS. Chanter: Another weaker but useful DPS. Max out Res and PER. Ignore the rest. Priest: Healer. Max out the Res and Int. Ignore the rest. Other classes are pointless hassle. Monks can be really good DPS but not worth the micro, when rogues can do the job better. My typical party composition when game comes out assuming this is the final iteration of core stat changes: Two Rogues, Two fighters, Priest and a chanter Wizard.

No, you can't separate the game type from the XP method. The IE games give XP for kills because combat in the IE games is far for dynamic and involved. You have a dozen or more character classes that are defined by how they get the job done in combat, whether it be via spells, or melee, or archery, or back-stabbing, or party-based strategy etc. There's role playing IN the combat of those games, and thus it had to be rewarded. And that's why citing shooters like Deus Ex simply doesn't work. The entire design philosophy behind those two types of games is drastically different. XP systems are NOT one size fits all. In fact, I'd argue that attempting to fit the kill XP square peg into the round RPG hole can taint even the greatest RPGs. Take Planescape Torment, for example. Black Isle decided to use the same XP system for that game that they used for Icewind dale. And it was a glaring flaw. Kill XP hurt PS:T. It didn't need it, and all that including it accomplished WAS to promote grinding in a game that wasn't at all designed to focus on combat. Totally this. In fact there is not much "out of combat" stuff beyond what rogues do.

Working within limits is an unfortunate necessity with game design. Adding content to fill out a large skill lineup would take a lot of time and resources. Making all the skills equally useful would take even more time and resources. I'd rather have OE focus on doing a few things really well than to do a bunch of things rather poorly. Besides which, very few CRPGs are open/varied enough to really make use of an expansive skill system. Oddly, that's the kind of thing that I could see implemented in Bethesda's games, assuming they weren't entirely awful at that kind of thing. Indeed. I am not even asking for a level of detail equivalent to that of core D&D with its 20+ skills. But there are games out there made before PoE that had more than 6 (5?) skills which could in principle make things interesting. Just play the Conan modules for NWN2 to see what I mean. Now granted that OE has had to make the assets from scratch, but then OE is not an indie developer either.

The problem with the skill system is that it is too shallow. There are very few skills and that seems to be the usual "cut content to justify balance" motto of Bethesda. The problem in IWD2 was that there were a lot of skills which were useless due to their use not being implemented in the game. The solution should have been to add content to jsutify taking them and not removing those skills.

Then get off the thread. Let us discuss. There is not need for your stuff.

Eh. Already devolving to the level of cheap barbs. I pointed out your mistake that the two pools as you claimed are not necessary for attrition. But instead of replying to that you are just blabbering. WHy should I take you seriously? But still, I will be generous. Any system that has unnecessary components is unoptimized. That is why I am, and I am sure, a lot of people in this thread find the two pool system pointless. Just dismissing them as "ADHD" people makes you simply the problem, not the solution. As I see it, al you have done is beat up some strawmen and ignored all the excellent argument made in the thread.

Actually, it makes zero sense. What if there is just one health pool that can't be healed? How is that case in any way different towards delivering your goal than having two pools? The names given to the two pools are actually the least important issue to which you seem to be emotional attached. This is actually just the minor point. The biggest point is that the resting mechanics can NOT be spammed assuming that there are: 1 ) limited resting supplies 2 ) no free rest zones outside of the taverns.

That was an error on my part. I meant that the Drakensang system (Das Schwarze auge) is popular in germany.

It is simple. You get hit you lose endurance currently, you run out of endurance you fall unconscious and get a "wound" which is semi permanent character disability. If you lose all your health on the other hand you just plain die. The formula as it currently stands I believe is 4 endurance damage = 1 health damage, unless you are a barbarian then you lose 1 health every 8 endurance damage. It is pretty straight forward actually, even if a little more... intricate than it really needs to be. This is practically what Dragon Age did, almost. But you are right, that it is more than what is necessary. A simpler, Lose health to Die system is probably equally good.

The answer is NO I guess. a) It is not turn based. It is RTwP. b) It has probably the best RTwP implementation in the history of RTwP. I am saying this as a stern critic of the mechanics, c) It has actually a really great story which lacks in pace however. Also, by your ridiculous standards of "sales" IWDs are probably even lower on your lists?

LOL Gonna have to vehemently disagree with that. Drakensang: River of Time's combat is virtually a clone of Dragon Age Origin's- That is to say, it's alright. Easy to learn and master. It's Visceral, and, as you say, 'mechanically balanced'. But it lacks All semblance of depth. It's not dynamic at all. For anyone expecting the cerebral combat experience that BG2 or IWD2 offers, D:RoT's combat is NOT the way to go. it doesn't have any. A flavor issue? WTF! You can't just shoo away the fundamental importance of the magic system when you're discussing combat. I'd argue that magic makes or breaks the entire experience. This is a FANTASY RPG, not some medieval dueling simulator. Wtf on both of you. Erregal: Drakensang is a German system. It *is* quintessentially 'western'. Also, it is tremendously popular over here. Stun, you have never played Drakensang:ROT have you?

I am not sure I completely agree. There are clearly two aspects to challenge, one of which is resource management. I would say that if no matter how you completed an encounter i.e. how smart you played and the game allowed you to play the next as if nothing had happened, it reflects on the flow of gameplay. Now, you would think but I *did* spend spells and resting supplies between the two encounters? Is that not the resource cost? I would say that this is only partly true. As long as those spells do not really "cooldown" to usefulness, there is no real resource cost. Your "health" is your most precious resource anyway. If that goes to zero you lose. That expenditure also needs to be tracked somehow. In summary, I would have both HP + combat resource (spells etc) as the real cost. Not just one or the other.

Then maybe instead of arguing against the existence of kill XP you should argue against the existence of random beasts. I'm a huge advocate of hand placed encounters. There should be an authentic, specific, in-game reason for the existence and placement of every enemy in this game. Because that would eliminate 90% of the gripes people seem to have against kill XP. This is the core problem associated with trash mobs. It just needs to go.

The entire problem is that they can be recovered easily by resting; which is not a hard thing to do. Now consider two scenarios: 1) Resting supplies are sufficiently avaialble: In that case resting would be ideal thing to do all the time, as it magically cures you, making resting practically equivalent to NWN/NWN2/IE games. 2) Resting supplies are rare: In that case you'd just go to the Inn everytime you can, which magically cures you, instead of roughing through with situations where you might suffer permadeath. Thus you'd save all the resting supplies for later when you can't. The problem is that either case is trivial solution to attrition. The entire point is that attrition is thus pointless. The best solution is of course to make it harder to cure yourself of severe injuries, which would require magical assistance. An injury system avoids this route of magical healing. It could mean that when you are injured YOU MUST wait for a particular amount of time before you go back to full usefulness. This might make you send the poor guy back to the inn for a long term rest continuing without a full party. This is NOW in the non trivial terretory. On the other hand, if magical healing is allowed, it could be made non trivial by making it hard to pull off i.e. with resource cost.

Well then don't trivialize it duh. The problem in Dragon age was (as it is in PoE ironically) that it was too damn easy to recuperate.

I will just reiterate my previous argument to keep it alive: just remove one of the two. Instead replace it wil wounds/injury system if it really has to be there. That would be more intuitive. Dragon age did it and it did not suck there. I totally think that they are superfluous. It's not even really "complexity" or at least in a meaningful sense of the word. It does not interact mechanically with anything else (Health can't be healed anyway). There is nothing that is not reproduced in a purely "endurance" system (or whatever they are calling it now) which is unique to a Health + endurance system. It is just an addition which has really no purpose other than its own existance. This is bad design right there!

I still feel that most of these problems would go away if one replaced global cooldowns with animations speeds: Physical attacks should be fast to mid animation time depending upon time (i.e. default attack fast, special attack mid), spells should be slow and hugely damaging/affecting. This will really make the game more akin to its real inspiration.