IndiraLightfoot

@Katarack21: Indeed. Now, just let me roll up my own fanatic paladin, complete with a nasty flail and shieldbashing. @blotter: Your arguments are sound and correct. However, I still feel that at its very core, any class lore should be naturally represented in what we get to pick when we create a character from such a class. We shouldn't have to do the kind of quality analysis you just did in order to justify stuff that at first glance seems odd, out of place or even wrong. Reading about the class, and then playing it, should for the most part be a smooth transition, no?

I absolutely love the lore in PoE. Having made all this incredible stuff, only to have it crumble a bit already at character creation and level ups with single classes would be quite a waste. If it says "in the heat of battle their fanaticism often overrules the chain of command - and common sense", then I expect at least some recklessness and zealous risk-taking on behalf of paladins in PoE.

*Sorry, double post.*

Rogues should have access to Two-Weapon fighting, no? O don't necessarly see why? I think Katarack21's is making the same point as I do: We have established lore for the classes, and if the very canonical description of them says something about how they behave themselves in combat, such options should be readily available to them. It makes the most sense. Otherwise, we'll get stuck explaining bits of the lore description away as inaccurate mood delineators. EDIT: Yeah:

I don't want to see any lore changed in order to accommodate the classes - just classes fitting the lore. I'm mainly concerned seeing some descriptions not really fitting some of the classes as they stand right now in the Backfire beta: -Paladins aren't explosive martial beasts, hastening charges and staving off fatigue. -Fighters have become too offensive and bland. -Rogues versatility is down the drain. -Rangers ranged attacks certainly need upgrading and branching specialization. -I reckon priests can be improved by making the choice of deity even more impactful when you chose talents and proficiences when you create your priest and level up.

Well, White Marsh has one thing going for it: much better encounter design - thrash mobs are almost gone in that expansion.

I haven't seen a thread like this one, and I reckon we have use for one. (Sorry for the wall of text, but most of it's just copied class info.) It is entirely inspired by Katarack21's passionate posts in another thread, arguing the case that the lore on paladins in PoE doesn't fit their options as you build paladin characters in the game, here are some excerpts from him: "Paladins are martial zealots, devoted to a god, a ruler, or even a way of life. They can be found in any culture where a fanatical group of like-minded individuals have formed a warrior society dedicated to advancing their cause. Among those aligned to their worldview, paladins are viewed with respect and admiration, if a bit of fear. Many paladins hold leadership positions in armies and mercenary companies, but in the heat of battle their fanaticism often overrules the chain of command - and common sense." "Paladins shouldn't need to multiclass to have martial training. There is no lore-friendly reason why you should have to train as a fighter to be good with weapons as a Paladin; Paladins are trained with weapons as they are frontline soldiers in most armed conflicts in Eora." The more I've thought about the classes and the lore surrounding them, and lots of weird discrepancies here, the more I think this needs to be shed light on. At the moment, things feel a bit arbitrary, especially with all the changes, going from PoE1 to PoE2. I'm not saying that everything must fit like with nano-precision, but I am saying that the lore of the classes at least fit their respective class like a glove. And you all know: "If it doesn't fit, acquit!" Which in this case means the class needs to acquit itself of its role, making it complete and reasonable. So, without further ado, let's start with the paladin: "Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a chosen cause, combining the zeal of a priest with the ascetic discipline of a monk. They have founded many elite fighting forces, from the original Darcozzi Paladini, a two thousand year-old order of palace guards, to the fledgling Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr, zealous defenders of the Godhammer pilgrim trail. Often found at the vanguard of many conflicts, paladins are natural leaders and have the ability to quickly assist their allies with targeted commands. A paladin's commands can stave off impending death, overcome fatigue, or hasten the charge to close breached defenses. And though they are not always pledged to the service of a god or gods, paladins are so singularly focused on their chosen cause that their souls are continually creating a wellspring of spiritual energy from which they can blast groups of foes in their immediate vicinity. Despite their often stoic presence and explosive combat style, paladins work best alongside allies. When isolated, they can be vulnerable, especially against singular powerful foes." We immediately garner interesting cross-class similarities. Paladins are stoic and devoted, often fanatical elite warriors, with the zeal of a priest and the ascetic discipline of a monk, and with an explosive combat style. We can see that Katarack21 has a very important point: Paladins should never need to multiclass to become good at most combat tactics and fighting with weapons. All that stuff should be part and parcel of the class. Ironically, their fanatical zeal and explosive combat style, should actually mean that they have something like Barbarian's Frenzy going for them. So, friends, where are paladins' extreme and explosive weapon styles? Where are their commands that stave off death or fatigue, and those that "hasten the charge"? How can we blast enemies with our souls, playing as paladins? Personally, I feel like the only class deserving of a devoted weapon specialisation would be paladins, some priests, and monks (only their fists, and perhaps some kama or something). Or what about a cool Zealous Strike? Monks: "Monks belong to a variety of fighting orders that have sprung up in Ixamitl and the Eastern Reach over the past few centuries. While many monastic orders can trace their teachings to the Enduring Founder, Tletac, individual orders vary greatly in their focus, morality, and ethics. Common folk respect the incredible discipline of monks but see them as an odd, unpredictable bunch who may not be entirely sane. Even mercenaries and other adventurers aren't sure what to make of them. Centuries ago, one man founded the fighting monastic disciplines. He was an old warrior who had knocked on death's door many times and had endured numerous periods of captivity and torture. He discovered a method of mentally focusing on his pain to invoke power from his soul. When he left the service of his lord, he devoted his time to developing these techniques and teaching them to other warriors. He believed that mortification of the flesh not only made warriors more powerful, but that it strengthened the souls of its practitioners, making it more likely that their souls would remain intact when they died, rather than fragment. He advocated fighting with bare fists and without armor to emphasize a fighting monk's personal suffering. Because the founder of these disciplines was old when he began teaching and died only a few decades later, there are now many different monastic orders. Some are more secluded, some are mendicant travelers, some are mercenaries. They all tend to believe, like their founder, that combat is the ideal path for pursuing their particular brand of mortification of the flesh. Some choose to pursue this in dedicated service, some become mercenaries or assassins, and others devote their lives to dangerous wandering and exploration." Alright, individual orders of monks vary greatly? Do our choices levelling up, subclasses and all, reflect that? They are fighting and they have extreme discipline and are not entirely sane, and gets off on pain (sounds like Rambo in First Blood). In many ways, monks would be ideal to multiclass, just to give them the varied flavour they need, but on the other hand, single-classing them should accommodate for that as well. Priests: "They are devoted followers of one or more deities, though almost all have a primary dedication to a single god above all others.[1] They are capable in combat, but their true power comes from their prayers. These prayers form the common spells priests use in battle, ranging from healing magic and divine attacks to a variety of blessings and curses. The priests' power is actually derived from their personal beliefs. In contrast to most paladins, priests tend to focus on philosophy, teaching, and the relationship of religious organizations with common folk. The reception of priests in any given part of the world depends largely on how their god is revered - or reviled - by the people who live there. Dedicated to spreading the news of their gods' dominions in the realms of mortals through their own deeds, adventuring priests thrust themselves into lethal conflict to prove their worth. Often trained to fight alongside soldiers of their respective churches, priests are capable in the fray (and near the fray, for those who follow less melee-oriented faiths)." I'm surprised to see that Deadfire priests do fit their role pretty well (despite their shortcomings as a class right now). It is clear that they need more prayers to choose from, and at least one subclass needs to be priests devoted to combat and even certain weapons. Druids: "They are animists, drawing power through the webs they believe connect all living souls in the world. When not casting spells and transforming into mythical beasts, druids spend a great deal of time in nature, giving them skill foci in Athletics and Survival. Much like priests, druids draw ambient fragments of soul energy toward them and shape their effects through practiced concentration. While druids do not have the diverse spell repertoire of wizards, they have more than enough to handle most problems that come their way. Druids' spells often take the form of natural phenomena—storms, coiling plants, rapid decay—to reflect their primal connection to the world. Despite their heavily offensive nature, they do have a few defensive and healing spells to aid their allies. Animists at heart, druids tap into the spiritual power that flows through the simple living things of Eora: plants, animals, and sometimes even living stone. While not necessarily religious, druids do have a reverence for the natural world and a keen interest in understanding its mysteries. In most cultures, druids are understood as a sort of primal magician, but among the Glanfathans, Naasitaqi, and many rural cultures, they may have high positions of influence and authority." Interestingly, they are supposed to be heavily on the offensive (aggressive like animals). Does the class in Deadfire reflect this? And do druids have much less spells than wizards? Fighters: "Fighters form the front line of disciplined armies across the Eastern Reach. Though they are most commonly found in cultures with an organized martial structure, fighters can also be encountered as wandering mercenaries, bodyguards, and other types of sell-swords. The common element that unifies fighters is their heavy focus on endurance and melee defense. Fighters are men and women trained to use a wide variety of traditional weapons in brutal combat. They are often put in—or put themselves in—harm's way and are built to take an extraordinary amount of punishment. They are known for their discipline, skill, and durability. In the Eastern Reach, they are often employed as caravan guards, soldiers, and personal bodyguards. Accustomed as they are to long marches, strange places, and life on the road, all fighters gain a minor skill bonus to Athletics, Lore, and Survival. In combat, fighters are steadfast and stalwart. Even novice fighters enjoy the highest base Deflection defense of any class and the ability to passively recover a small amount of Endurance every second. Though not traditionally as mobile as the monk nor as likely to dish out individually withering attacks as a rogue, fighters are dependable and flexible, able to shift between a variety of attack modes that alternate between high damage, maintaining a strong defense, weakening opponents, and dealing harsh retribution to those who attack his or her allies. Some fighters build up arsenals of feints, knockdowns, and special attacks rather than rely on the “slow and steady” approach. And while fighters are often thought of as being primarily melee-based, they can specialize in a variety of weapons, including bows, crossbows, and even firearms. They're unlikely to outclass rangers at their own game, but fighters can be almost as dangerous at a distance as they are up close. Though it may not look like it to see them in battle next to wizards and priests, fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance that allows them to rapidly bounce back from even terrible wounds, to protect nearby allies from incoming attacks, to knock down groups of enemies, and even to yank enemy passers-by into the fray." Here, we learn that fighters have a heavy focus on endurance and melee defense. This seems to indicate that fighters shouldn't have a devoted weapon, no? They can specialize in a variety of weapons - which would mean slight Accuracy bonuses on entire weapon groups, but not some devoted special weapon? They need a number of endurance-enhancing talents and in fact lots of defense and armour talents as well. The keyword is durability. The offensive stuff should be the left to paladins, rogues, druids (yep), rangers with ranged weapons, and barbarians, for instance. Barbarians: "They are the wild, unconventional counterparts to fighters – distinguished by their recklessness, ferocity, and their predilection to substitute raw aggression for discipline. Lacking the accuracy and strong Deflection of the fighter, the barbarian makes up for his lack of discipline through sheer speed, savagery, and abilities tailored for fighting groups of enemies. Barbarians are a challenge to deal with on a battlefield, though they are vulnerable to exhaustion if they don't pace themselves. Barbarians come from many of the more remote cultures found across the world. In the Eastern Reach, barbarians most often come from Eir Glanfath, though some can be found in rural Dyrwoodan communities or drifting in from abroad through port cities like Defiance Bay and New Heomar. Barbarians are often used as shock troops for dealing with mobs or simply to intimidate the easily-cowed with their ferocity. As the Dyrwood has settled down over time, the regular employment of foreign barbarians has slowed significantly, but they still make up the majority of Glanfathan front-line forces. Barbarians all have a strong skill focus in Athletics and lesser focus in Survival." Clearly, these are fighters as well, but on the other end of the spectrum, raw aggression and powerful and fast attacks, less defence and armour. They having Frenzy is good and all, but how diverse is this class getting, as we level up? How many styles of barbarian do we have at our disposal? Rogues: "Rogues are vicious killers, feared for the brutality of their attacks. They can be found as often in dark back alleys as the heart of battlefield skirmishes. Though unpredictable and undisciplined, rogues are commonly used as shock troops or as part of a surprise assault, their withering attacks breaking enemy ranks and morale. Rogues tend to congregate in larger numbers in cities where they can be steadily employed as mercenaries or hired muscle. Contrary to what their name might imply, rogues come from many walks of life. They are cutpurses, thugs, and courtesans but also aristocrats, diplomats, and personal guards. Often separated by station in life, they are united by their reliance on wits, speed, and subterfuge to achieve their goals. The way of the rogue is not to stand toe-to-toe with the biggest brute in the room and exchange body blows, but to glance away in feigned confusion and slip an unseen blade between the brute's ribs as he turns his attention. When a room explodes in a storm of fire, the fighters grit their teeth, the priests pray for salvation, and the wizards fumble to find a spell to protect them, but the rogues just... disappear. They excel at being in the one place where no one's looking, at kicking people when they're down, at taunting a foe into turning its back on the rogue's ally while he or she nimbly skips away, and at being just too damned slippery to pin down. Whether they pack a pair of daggers, a fine rapier, a slim bow, a stubby pistol, or a brutish club, rogues haul a carnival of pain with them wherever they go. If their natural tendencies weren't dangerous enough, their affinity for skullduggery allows some talented rogues to tap into their souls to perform amazing stunts: fading from view in plain sight, briefly cloaking their allies in a veil of shadow, imbuing their weapons with a soul-eating venom, or even becoming so insubstantial that blades barely hurt them. While rogues are known for their stealthy nature both in and out of battle, many of them are quite talented with machines and contraptions of all sorts. High-born rogues are often very knowledgeable about esoteric matters, while many low-born rogues are well-equipped to survive in the wild. Rogues have the highest single target damage and they have abilities that can dramatically increase their damage for a short duration. The rogue can use most of his abilities with ranged weapons, but he needs to be relatively close to the target to use them." This class is surprisingly versatile, almost contrived and superfluous (since most classes described above plus ranger could replace it). Overall, backstabbing and throwing a bomb or two, smearing poison on weapons, seem to be part of something of their general identity here. They should be able to deal the highest single target damage, though. Is this really true right now in Deadfire? Rangers: "Rangers are expert sharpshooters with any ranged weapon. Though they traditionally rely on bows and crossbows, some use firearms or even magical implements. Regardless of their choice of armament, even novice rangers can strike swiftly and leave severe wounds that quickly wear down an enemy's endurance and movement. They are assisted in their efforts by their animal Companions, incredibly tough and loyal creatures with whom rangers form lifelong bonds, who share their lives (literally) with their masters. Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and masters of the hunt. Always partnered with soul-bonded animal companions, they can be found in wild spaces all over the world. As their lifestyles often tend toward independence and isolation, it is rare for rangers to become an integral part of a large fighting force, though they are often employed as scouts and guides." The description of them makes them very specialized on ranged weapons and having superb animal companions. In Deadfire, they can sneak up solo on stuff and start shooting, and then kite, I guess? If it was up to me, I'd give rangers some important non-ranged melee role as well. As for chanters, ciphers, and wizards, I'll stick my head out and claim that they are indeed pretty distinct classes with lots of variety to them already in Deadfire. What do you guys think?

It messes with difficulty curve, but yes, you definitely should - especially now that you're in Act II since it's for level 7-9 characters. Still, that expansion still pack a punch right off the bat, if unprepared, and on normal and higher.

If it is your first playthrough, this may be a bit of a challenge, depending on difficulty and how used you are to Dishonored1, as it were. A brave and cool decision in my book.

In the real game, once you kill the titan, the other, seemingly wrecked, titan lying in pieces on those stairs, will reassemble and rise, and then be thrice as bad, mark my words!

Amen! I've got this feeling that some of the lacking info during character creation (the attributes and their dumbed-down grading list) and in game as a whole is an attempt to make the game more noob-friendly. I can certainly see why. It's not that easy for anyone who's never played it before. But, and this is a big but: There should always be accurate detailed info for those interested. IIRC, in NWN1, you had this little down-pointing arrow and "more info" you could click, and then you got a run down of stuff. I'd like to see that on everything that matters when you make a character, when you choose talents, proficiencies, skills, etc., and when you use spells, items, and stuff, central to the combat aspect of the game.

This post actually reeks of Nietzsche (cited at the start of BG1, for instance), ironically a philosopher who Nazis twisted as to fit their own world view, ultimately misunderstanding and misinterpreting a number of his major arguments in so doing.

Hey there, soulmate!

Heh, I forgot a thread of my own (no shameless plug), about difficulty: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94681-its-not-you-its-the-current-beta-on-difficulty/ I imagine that this thread may become interesting and useful along the way, when new patches get released.

In a number of posts in this thread, I see a misunderstanding getting repeated ad nauseam: People wanting more general talents are not to be assumed to be driven by some power-gaming munchkin urge, waiting to pick always the optimal choices. I for one, find that this kind of building has a lot to do with having fun, being creative, roleplaying in some sense, and lending the game much needed longevity. Another tiresome misunderstanding is that these assumed "power gamers" run roughshod over the game, crushing its RPG intentions, and thriving on meta knowledge. Everyone frequenting these forums, are steeped in metagaming. It's just part of life. Trying the beta out? Good bye, meta-innocence. Lots of players love making crazy builds in its own right, just to see how the game plays out. I have literally dozens of entire playthroughs of NWN2, and believe me, there are some really fun and crazy builds you can do within that system. If any creative CRPG like that comes my way, I'll jump on that train like there is no tomorrow.

Speaking of the beta, the next patch has me left hanging in there, like a weird spoiled brat, sitting by the dinner table, waiting for something yummy:

Heya Maxquest, This is actually already in the game (and the backer beta). If you use the console command "SpawnPrefabAtMouse CRE_Dummy" you'll spawn a little dude that you can attack and test stuff out on. =) Looks like we didn't include his name (Dummy) in the beta build, so it'll show up as "Missing String 97", but he should still provide ya with what you need. How about including such a dummy, tucked away far to the left, beyond those caged Lizzies, permanently in the beta?

That's it. I don't feel like touching this first beta anymore. I'll refrain from playing until all of these cool changes have been implemented (hopefully soon.) You know, Black Friday, Thanksgiving, buying X-mas pressies...

Yep, I reckon Gromnir and heaps of other peeps are in for a treat. I love how responsive Obsidian are, and I like the solutions they concoct:

Yeah, this will have a huge impact on upgrading persistent worlds and multiplayer using machines and screen resolutions from this decade. At that, a number of original NWN1 devs are working at Beamdog now - this is another team, not the same as for BG/IWD EE, for instance. Plus a number of modders I have great respect for take part in this undertaking as active consultants.

Annie, are you walking? Are you walking, Annie? Annie, are you walking? Are you walking, Annie?

My lollipop metafor for priest would be one dropped lint-coated lollipop caught in a God-forsaken sofa crack.

Those are made-up numbers. I was just using a made-up example to illustrate my point. But, thinking on this further, ultimately it matters not one bit to me what happens in others' games. Only what happens in my own games matters to me. Thus, if in the process of taking what in my opinion are fighter talents and making them available to other classes, they compensate fairly by taking spellcasting abilities and make them available to fighters and other melee classes, that would actually be pretty awesome for me. If the melee classes can also cast some heals, buffs and debuffs, then I won't need to drag along any spellcasters in my party, and that would be ideal. I only love the melee classes and can't stand the stupid weenie spellcasters, but in PoE1 it was just not possible to get through the game without having casters in my party (as the non-hardcore casual gamer that I am). If PoE2 will allow me to run an all-melee party and still beat the game and do most of the side quests and do all of this without having to be a hardcore player, I would be VERY ok with that. There you go! Yup! Different strokes for different folks. I really hope that you get to create the party you want in Deadfire.

Hey, look who's walking now! ( Oddly enough, I can only watch Twitter vids on Chrome, not IE11 nor Edge.)

Perhaps I'm just tired, but aren't there more choices and more possibilities if you're allowed to create the character just the way you feel like as opposed to picking between a few "classes" and rigid talent trees?