TrashMan

Not necessarily. As long as the companions prioritize what they need and reserve room for it, it woldn't be a problem. wouldn't be that hard to implement either. Let's say 5 healing (or mana) potions and 2 stacks of arrows are a minimum stock a party member might mantain.

Simple system to implement - do no allow cloting/weapons to be removed - only REPLACED with something is similar or greater value.. In other words, you can't strip them naked and leave them unarmed - you have to give them something usabl as a replacement. And I'm all for party memebr to show interest and more personality. fF you came across a particually nice bow, the ranger might be "I call dibs on that one!".

I disagree. And rouges/thievs/sneaky types done right are generally done right in a different type of game. You're still repeating this? I'm not (hypotheticly) getting what I want. No matter how many times you repeat it it won't be true. Get that into your thick skull. "I have to live with a little temptation?" Tell you what - how about you get to live with a little bit of (loading-related) frustration? The idea of having to re-do a battle because of a save point bothers you? Well, this bothers me just as much.

Name one then. I'm not wrong about the last part. You do not get to tell me or anyone else what I should like and what I should not like. I can dislike whatever I want about whatever system I want. Even if it's just the element of temptation. I can hate it and you do not get to tell me I don't have a right to OR that I'm wrong for hating it. Neither do I have to care about what you like. The systme you liek isnt' inherently "better" in any way. You just believe it is because it meshes with your desires.

You already know that what I say is true. It's just common sense. Game design don't exist in a vacuum = fact. If you want an example - Rogues. They are designed differently than what they are supposed to be, and if you think that complains from players who abused the system and thus found then "useless" didnt' factor into that, think again. And I will tell you one more thing. The existence of that feature may (or may not) bother me. Any objection you may have to that is irrelevant. IF it bothers me, then the game isn't to my liking and it automaticly lessns the game for me. Wether you think that it should or shouldn't bother me is irrelevant. At hte end of the day this amounts of "I think the game is better with X and without Y" and you saying "the game is better wihout X and with Y".

But it is a system that is relying on your intelligence, not your characters (which is ultimately my objection; I want my character to be doing as much of the stuff as possible, not me). If that is the case, then don't use any party tactics. Don't direct combat. Because you'd be doing that, and not your character. Don't get me wrong - I know what you mean. But mental faculty is practicly impossible to simulate in a game in any excpet the most broadest and simplest terms.

I'm all for players typing in the answers. ALL THE TIME. FF's learn some vocabulary. At least some good may come from playing games. Even with synonims and spelling, it only taks you a few tries anyway if you have any grey matter to begin with.

You don't want the game to be a like Icewind Dale? Heh... I don't want it to be like Planescape Torment. We don't really get what we want in life, now do we?

Freedom to do "whatever I want" is horribly overrated and cna ruin a game as much as too many restrictions. The game mechanics serve to enforce a specific atmosphere and gameplay. This come first and foremost. Greater player freedom within those constraints is a great goal, but total player freedom is secondary. Just because you think that the no-savescumming crowed loses nothing doesnt' make it so. Remember that. GAME DESIGN DOES NOT EXIST IN VACUUM. Repeat it after me.

Summon Deva. The first time I used it I ran with my paladin into a room full of baddies, summened it, ran out and closed the door. When I came back in later all the enemies were dead.

And yet it happens. People bypass them. Frankly, if people want to cheat, there are cheat codes adn modding for that. I see no reason a game should facilitate that "freedom" Mind you, I know some people venerate the word Freedom like it's the best thing ever in ever context and situation. With which I disagree. Super Mario must be a horrible game then. After all, it's so easy to die and if oyu do, you have to re-do the whole level (or half of it). If you don't want to repeat content, how hard is it to take a minute to get back to a safe spot and save? If you dont' want to repeat content, then play the game more carefully. The option to retreat should always be there - an option that is NEVER used simply because it is easier to reload. Is a 15 minute interval between normal saves (emergency saves not counted) really that horrible? Are you really going to be dying that much? Again, if you want to create a specific atmosphere or gaming mentality, save_anywhere can hurt your effort just as much as they can help it.

Agree with the OP. A, B, C choice becomes a simple "spot the inturuder". It makes riddels trivial. I still remeber the old Thunderscape, where you had to type in the answer to every riddle. It made riddles so much harder and it felt so right.

I loves many of them. Chromatic Orbs was great. Loved to use it. Also, the Fire Shield REd/Blue (or blade barrier) + stoneskin combo. Now that was just pure evil. Sunburst too.

Everone wants the game to be to their liking. Everoyne has a image of the "perfect game" and are arguing for it. I'm no different and neither are you. Anyone saying otherwise is a big fat liar. I can agree with this, even if I think your position in the rest of this discussion is laughable at best. You really have hit on a fundamental truth here. The only difference I see between you and I is that I look for compromise in most issues, whereas you seem to be stubbornly proclaiming that it's your way or no way. In the end, I know I won't have the perfect game I want. But it is enough for me to know that I have some, or even most, of what I wanted. You look for what you think it's a compromise. And that is praiseworthy, but the thing is - just because you thinktti's an acceptable compromise, doesn't necessarily make it so. See, weather a game has "save whenever" or "save points" affects game design. No design element exist in a vaccum - it influences all other things. Level desing, enncoutner design, classes, other mechanics - they can all change and are influenced by all other factors. So a game that uses "save whenever" will be quite different than a game that doesn't. Therefore, claiming that "my" experience will not change and depends only on me is wrong. That's of course assuming that I personally want a very specific experience that can only be properly achieved that way...which is a reasonable assumption to make given that I debate for the other side (I find it more interesting), but it's a dangerous assumption to make. Not much. Hypotheticly? That is just a mode, so the entire game is designed around saving everywhere, and therefore even Iron Man doesn't provide the full experience I'm looking for. For example: Rogues will still be a comabt oriented-class.

Everone wants the game to be to their liking. Everoyne has a image of the "perfect game" and are arguing for it. I'm no different and neither are you. Anyone saying otherwise is a big fat liar.

Again with the fake fascade of righteousness. You prefference steers the game design away from what I consider good. So no. The idea that you are a sweet, innocent, freedom loving guy and that I'm a monster who wants to ruin your fun is utterly flawed. Your preffernce ruins MY fun just as my ruins yours. It's just that you will never accept that as it mewans you have to step down from your high horse. Also, for the record: I can easily argue for any kind of viewpoint (hypotheticly), even tough I may or may not endorse it 100%. And for this discussion I choose the side opposite of yours. So don't assume too much about me. With some other changes to the game, I would have been fine with Ironman mode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Broken game mechanics are not my choice. You can talk all you want. Changes nothing. You just mask your preferences under the fake norion of "freedom" to give it more validity. You. There is proper roleplaying (depending on the setting). Period. Calling my ideas illusionary, but at the same time haning onto your own like a holy scripture. Irony. Sarcasm is for the weak. And there's plenty of game designers who did make sucesfull games that are compeltely opposite of your wishes. Which proves you utterly wrong.

Your complaint isn't about a faulty game mechanic, it's about people. The example you gave doesn't show that the game mechanic is badly designed, it shows that people will play the game the way they want to. Exactly who, in your example, would be complaining that the rogue class is useless? The people who are using it the way you describe? I doubt it. They obviously want to play that way. Or would it be people like yourself who read threads about people playing that way and feel you have to tell them how wrong they are for not playing how you play? I usually try to finish my first playthrough of a game accepting everything as it comes. A party member dies? So be it. I'll continue to play with the consequences. I lose a battle? I keep playing. After that first playthrough, though, I like to try different things. I like to experiment with different ways of completing quests, of winning battles, trying new skills and talents at level up, different classes, different races. If the devs institute save points I will withdraw my $280 and spend it elsewhere. Why? Because your view on how the save system should be instituted would ruin any further playthroughs for me and I have no intention of spending that sort of money on a game I would only play once at best. I have no problem with accepting the consequences in a game despite knowing I can undo any mistakes by simple reloading a save. I don't do that on my first playthrough though. I choose to not reload. I can also choose to reload if I want. How is it that you can't? How is it that you need to limit my choices to feel better about your lack of discipline? Maybe it's not the rest of us that have a problem. *manly fist bump* No, it shows that people will complain because they abuse and game developers will design the game around them. Which sucks for people whole don't abuse the system. I have already proven my point with all previous IE games and examples. Theives are more and more pushed towards being a combat-class. Deny that if you can. If you cannot acccept that peoples habbits DO influence game design and that it can steer the game into a direction I find bad, then we have nothing totalk about. At all. You kep haring about self-control, but that is hardly the main issue. And assuming it was the main issue, I could argue that the game shouldn't tempt me in the first palce. If you are so utterly shallow and egoistical that you will drop your support if the game ends up having fixed save points, go ahead. Nothing wrong with fixed save poitns - as many, many games with save points proved time and time again. Heck, I myself often forget to save nad have to re-do a few battles. No big deal. At worst a mild irritation. If THAT is enough for you to never play the game again, then the game wasn't that good to begin with.

And if you stil lthink that it doesn't affect anyone, let me give you this example: Roge/Thief. A calss that is skill-based. A class whos purpose and strength is rendered mostly poinltess by save-scumming (something, many, many will do). What need is there for scouting when you can just save, enter a room, check whos' there and re-load? What need is there for searching for traps when you can just reload? What need is htere for disabling traps if oyu can save, check is the chest is traped or not and what's in it, and re-load, then force open just a chest that has something valubale? Or in case loot is random, re-laod till you get better loot? All of this leads to people complainign that rouges/thiefs are useless (as evidenced by the rogue thread) which forces the develoeprs to turn rogues into combat-heavy classes. So don't tell me it doesn't influence my game, because the entire encounter and class design is influenced by save-scumming. I see the effects in my game. Therefore it influences me.

Has it ever even occurred to you that CRPGs and PnP RPGs are *gasp* different? A good DM won't just kill off characters because of a bad roll, a computer game doesn't care. Not a problem, as CRPG's in general are far more forgiving.

Except no one is taking that abiltiy away from you. Because you still have plenty of opportunities to save.

Hahahahaha!!!! That's rich! Most people can't control themselves. Now I can (most of the time anyway). But I still hate the existence of that flaw. Yes, I hate it. It impacts me because it exists. Get it now? I AM worse off because of it, just like you are "worse off" if it isn't there. Actually it isn't. For any game there is a right and wrong way to play it. You might say that as long as you are having fun it doesn't matter. And that is true to a point. But you don't play a sneaking game like Thief like you would play Doom. You don't rush into rooms Rambo style. Every genre, every game type, has a specific style of play it's aiming that. CRPG should be about rolepalying. PROPER roleplaying. I fail to see how playing smart = playing dumb. Spare me the fake psycological/intelectual posturing. I have EVERY much as much right to hate save game exploits as you have to hate a non-explotable systems.

That is where you are wrong. A distincively flawed and abusable system does have an impact on me. Not only am I constatnly aware of the flaw, but the temptation to abuse it constatnly flaunted into my face. I might as well flaunt pictures of gorgeous, sexy women in front of your face and tell you to not get a boner. If entire classes (rouges) and abilities loose their worth because of such a glaring exploit, then the system is flawed. Period.

False dillema. For one, you can pause the game and lave the computer running, and come back later. For another, if you have a save+quit (with the save deleting itself once you continue) then that problem si effectively gone, no?

No offense to anyone - but to hell with those short-sighted players. CRPG will never reach the the level of PnP games, as long as there are players like that.