Razsius

I am face palming so hard right now Prime... Yeslick's on the second floor of the Cloakwood Mine I don't know why you didn't just finish the place off with 5. You had to go through like 6 zones just to get *out* of Cloakwood. You hit chapter 5 after you complete the mines which finally opens up Baldur's Gate proper and i'd say things don't really "start" till you're in the city. Just grab Faldorn (the druid) if she's still around. She's not my favorite but she's not absolutely terrible either. I'd forget about Durlag's Tower without a healer. I don't think there are any more healers if she's not around. I'm kind of amazed you managed to piss them all off oh no... no wait, I think Jaheria and Khalid will be back in the Friendly Arm... lucky you. But yes, there won't be anymore clerics up for grabs.

@Prime Oh gods no Prime! Leave well enough alone with Durlag's Tower. I wouldn't even *think* about trying to do that place till your characters are ~lvl 8 so... sometime after chapter 4 really. I could've sworn you had already played Baldur's Gate. Durlag's Tower can crush you so hard your ancestors and future great grandchildren will feel it. Which is naturally why I believe it's one of the best mega dungeons ever created. I always leave there never wanting to step foot in it again. I so hope Prime sees this before it's too late... Sounds like you're on chapter 4 btw so if wandering around is getting a little old i'd start hitting up Cloakwood. I really think the game starts picking up from here on out. Cloakwood's one of my favorite places in the game. @Ffordesoon Great point about game storytelling.

@Prime Oh yea no pressure or anything. I assume i'll be the ideas guy who has to come up with the plan of action to end fighting that's quite literally been going on for hundreds of years. The last crusade as it were. I definitely feel like the master tactician around here that I play in Fire Emblem: Awakening. Well I do know one thing... you'd definitely be a good individual to watch my back. That's kind of it but it isn't so much nostalgia but rather that feeling of accomplishment. Take, for example, your difficulty dealing with archer groups. If the game designers had simply said you would only get xp for them in groups of x number or that the reward would come later or much later because it was only when you hit whatever that goal was then you might end up saying to yourself "why then?" The decision might seem somewhat arbitrary to you no matter where they placed the "bar." You could, for example, design a very difficult encounter with a dragon only to at the end of it assign no xp and no loot because he's both a destitute and a feeble dragon. It would work for story purposes but it should be an obvious no no for game design. I have seen such in the objective based xp games I have played (not the actual dragon encounter). That might be the reason I asked for ones that did it right. I agree. There's certainly a whole bunch of potential for Project:Eternity I think the only thing we want around here is for it to be realized. @Ffordesoon Except Ffordesoon, that encounter with Mourns-for-Trees has absolutely nothing to do with him being a naturalist and everything to do with Dak'kon's response. For those that have forgotten what Limbo was, it was the formless home plane of the githzerai. His sword, for example, was made of the "chaos matter" found in Limbo that was essentially only given shape based on his will. Thus, cities in Limbo only exist due to will. So when Dak'kon says the trees would be like cities on his home plane he quite literally means that the trees in the Hive would grow based upon the will of the people there (any phrase starting to look familiar to you guys?). In Sigil, belief is everything but ironically enough that is fundamentally true *here* in real life. Anyone that tells you that talent will get you somewhere in life is lying to you. Will is the number one determinant of you getting anywhere in life. The ability to try and then fail and try again. There is a certain basketball legend who has repeatedly in life and it only made him that much stronger. Here in America we have this rather small faction of radio talk show hosts who basically (whether they know it or not) hold close to immeasurable power because their following is colossal. Generally, they nearly incessantly whine about the country going down the tubes yet fail to actually *do* anything about it aside from talk. The few times these heavy hitters actually told their base to go do something are the few things (miraculously enough) things actually happened. They could easily shape where this country is going at almost any time they basically please. This is the power of will or belief that is held by many. Remember those 5 choices to Mourns-for-Trees dialogue? Take a second look. Do they look familiar to you now?

Funny how our experiment seems to be "working."

I feel like a damned fool Prime... @#$%! I mean really?! How the HELL did I miss this?! You see a tired-looking, sorrowful old man who is gazing at the ash-dead tree in front of him. He is mumbling to himself and tapping his chin, as if trying to figure something out. Occasionally, he shakes his head sadly. "Greetings..." He seems momentarily startled as you interrupt his train of thought. He speaks in a calm, unhurried tone, but one filled with sadness. "Oh... greetings to you too, friend. How does this day find you?" "Does it matter?" The man is caught off-guard, but then nods assent confidently. "Yes, friend, it does. To me at least... though that doesn't count for much, it seems." He seems about to turn back to the tree. "Doesn't count much? What do you mean?" "It's a long story... not something the casual passer-by would want to stand around for, I'm sure. Let's just say that any efforts I've made to rouse the people here to action have been... ignored." "What is it you had wanted the people to do?" "I had wanted them to... to..." he seems exasperated, frustrated at his loss for words "...to *care*. Is that so much, friend?" He looks at you in earnest. "Care about what?" He pats the tree beside him. "It's the trees, here, in the Hive. They're dying, friend -- and no one cares." Seeing the look on your face, he holds his hands up, as if to silence you for a moment. "It may not matter to some, but it's important to me. I feel it's a shame to see the last tatters of life and beauty in this ward left, uncared for, to die. Can you understand that friend?" (No I couldn't Mourns-for-Trees I was too busy metagaming my way through that I was completely oblivious to what you were *actually* trying to tell me... the first time) Note: Here's where it get's interesting. Your FIVE dialogue options are thus: "Yes... you're right, it's a sad thing" "No. All things die, in time; why concern yourself with the when and how of it?" "No, I can't. Unless the trees are of some use to someone who would care?" "Yes. I had some questions..." "I understand. Farewell." Okay, it's time to pay attention people. Class is in session. You see 4 of these responses in your everyday life ALL the time however, one and only one of them do you see rarely. Mourns-for-Trees asks one very simple question but you can show you DO NOT understand by picking 4 of the options. Aren't the personalty types for options 2-5 something along the lines of this: "I am the 'logical' person you find in everyday life, the fatalist who simply can't care to ask anymore." "I am your best friend." "I am the manipulative bastard who finds glee in using you." "My whims define your will." "I am your father." "I am the individual who fakes understanding yet never stops demanding things from you." "I am your sibling." "I am the 'human being' that asks you how you are doing yet never responds to your answer as I do NOT actually care" "I am the extended family." Only by picking option 1 do you understand what Mourns-for-Trees is actually asking. This wouldn't show up in any game system however, in fact it generally doesn't show up even if you are paying attention but it is there. I completely missed it the first time but I did rather like Mourns-for-Trees, I just couldn't put my finger on why.... Now I know. Sacred Path if you're still around I have a question for you that you'd probably be unable to answer. Why does the "gutter rat" Annah with Tiefling blood have the most beautiful tune of the companions? Edit: God I love Dak'kon's response when you ask him if he can care for the trees. "One finds your request most intriguing. Trees, in the Hive? Like cities, in Limbo. They would stand as a testament to the will of the People not to bow to that which would surround and devour them; to take what has been thrust upon them or left behind and make good of it. I, too, will care for these trees."

@Prime Ah I see the area you're lacking in now (it's not really archers...oops). It's funny I made this mathematical formula for archer party composition that's unshakeable (no not really). Rangers/Paladins built as bowmen/Fighters + Fighter/Thieves built as bowmen count as 1, Thieves with high dex count as .75, Mages using darts count as a bonus and sling wielders count as -1. So according to my rock solid formula you're at -.25. I'm surprised you're getting anywhere at all! In a more serious vein, the reason why i'm anything but fond of slings is their incredibly low fire rate and low weapon speed not to mention that for the previous two massive disadvantages they only come with a mediocre damage range. As a comparison your throwing axes have slightly higher speed and a higher damage range. Slings in a word... suck. Your party composition problems aren't related to archers however (well kind of). Doing some party head math I don't think you actually have a mage especially if Garrick is singing all the time. While having Garrick sing does make your other five guys slightly stronger, it also takes him completely out of the fight so you're left dealing with mobs with a group of 5. Personally, i'd drop Branwen (your Cleric) the first chance I got and pick up Ajantis and move Jaheira off sling duty and put her on the front line with a spear or scimitar/shield combo creating what I consider to be a mandatory meat wall for such things like archers. I'd say pick up a good Mage but then I remembered you only really have 2 options Dynaheir who you don't want because of Minsc and Xan who I really can't recommend (no magic missiles? I mean really?). If you "bend" a little Edwin's probably your best choice but you might hate him (personally I think his ego's hilarious). Then again you might be on the path to dual Imoen to a Mage in which case i'd just keep Garrick but have him be your caster/crossbowman until Imoen's ready to mage it up. After, i'd grab Kivan or Coran for a truly frightening party that I consider near "perfect." 2 tanks in the form of Jaheira and Ajantis, your go between death machine Kensei, 3 rock solid archers in the form of Khalid specced in bows, Kivan/Coran and Imoen using a short bow, 1.5 healers (a druid too!) with Jaheira and Ajantis and one solid Mage with Imoen. The reason I said your weakness is a lack of a Mage though is because groups of non-skeleton archers fall over dead when you lob a sleep spell their way. Personally, I consider some of the ambushes almost unbearable if you don't have a web spell ready for them. I think you're going to have some trouble if you don't find yourself some magic however on the plus side Garrick can sub in as a Mage at lvl 2+ though it would require less singing on his part. As far as Planescape goes I have managed a slightly slow start (forgot how much reading there was) and have left the Mortuary well kind of... as it crashed and it was getting a little late. At char creation I dumped points into intelligence and wisdom to 18 and put the rest into charisma. I might have wasted the points into charisma as there's always the friends spell but then again I think there was at least one instance where friends wouldn't help you get the dialogue options you needed. I'm going full Mage which i've never mained in an infinity engine game until now but i'll swap to fighter/thief if I really need the class to open more options but only then as I won't have the stats to make good use of those respective secondary classes. Plan on pumping wisdom till 22 and using +wisdom tats as a hold over till I get the various wisdom increases till 25 and swap out the wisdom tats as I go. Getting 3 more points from specialization in int for 21 total as I think there's at least one REALLY high int dialogue option (as well as whatever other int bonuses I end up getting). Adding 1 more point into charisma (+ 2 bonus charisma points) as I believe you need a 15 for everything though I could be wrong. Friends spell might save my rump if it gets sticky (I hope). Points into str till 15 (with bonuses) after as I think it opens up an endgame dialogue option. The rest into con or con/charisma. At the very least this run through should be much more efficient as I had a 25 wisdom/25 constitution fighter for my first run and having clashing stats is really freaking annoying.

@Prime Good to hear man, good to hear. Tonight was the night I was going to start up Planescape:Torment as I had given up finishing one of the 3 games I'm currently playing. The irony is that after kind of making our "pledge" I felt like I would end up having a LOT more fun then the first time around. It just felt like it would be a much better play through all in all. I still feel like that regardless to the point i'm kind of excited. In regards to your character I generally hear that Kensei dueled to Mage is probably the penultimate character in regards to power. Even if you just go straight Kensei you'll probably be just fine especially if it plays like my Monk did. At high level you will DESTROY everything. In regards to combat itself, what difficulty do you play at? I think I remember you saying something along the lines of Core for difficulty which in that case the damage low level enemies like gibberlings and stuff shouldn't be one shotting anything that isn't a Mage. Though don't quote me on that prior sentence as i'm not used to anything that isn't Insane anymore where I most definitely can get one shot. Though I can understand Gnolls being able to do quite a bit of damage with their halberds. The most simplistic method of making combat easier is quite literally to get more archers. I've played the BG series enough times to understand what makes things easier or harder and I basically found a direct correlation between how many real archers I had (rangers/fighters specialized in range/thieves with bows/etc.) and how easy the game was. Kivan is a great ranger to have if you have room for him. You've generally got the idea now though for playing Baldur's Gate. If you don't like a companion you don't have to use said companion (which you've done... I don't use Minsc myself either). Though I do realize it can be somewhat annoying with the pairs. Khalid was always a pretty craptacular fighter so I never used him and thus never used the pair myself. Never did find a healer I liked in Baldur's Gate.. I forgot who I ended up settling on. Still, with a pool of what 20+ companions it's pretty easy to find 5 you can live with. Keep right on trucking Prime just continue what you're doing and you should be well on your way to an enjoyable gaming experience. @Ffordesoon Prime's right though. Second edition AD&D is notoriously binary by nature let alone when your hp pool is stupidly low. A rather large annoyance of mine is how binary the armor system is. It's either get it or don't. No mitigation of damage to speak of is more than a little annoying. Tack on the fact that rounds just had to implemented into a RTwP system and there you have a truly clunky system. While I might love most of the Infinity Engine games i'm more than a little aware of their failings. I'm rather glad i'll be seeing some of Josh's new stuff for combat in Project Eternity. Anyways, i've got a morgue to wake up in. I'll be around later... ...maybe.

Amusing maybe. Disturbing? Negative. It certainly doesn't change how I view you. I was just poking fun that we always seem to be "opponents." I wasn't quite talking about larping your character however but rather creating identity for it. Take Chris Avellone's Let's Play of Arcanum, I wouldn't really call that larping his character but he did roll one *he* wanted to play and he seems willing to suffer the consequences of his choice (in his case terrible combat stats). That and it's pretty funny how he doesn't like Vergil's sass so you could say he's just taking everything at face value. Your three examples as I recall all have your characters start with identity. In Morrowind you are the Nerevarine, in Gothic you're the Namless Hero and in Fallout you are the Vault Dweller. In Arcanum, you are the incarnation of a powerful elf but that makes little difference to you in the beginning (more of a joke really) but that might play heavily later on. You know it's funny, generally I think you stop right before the time you'd be "home free." If you can clear Black Mountain Mines I hear the game gets much better. As for combat, I was hooked when I threw my first molotov. I think I was fascinated by the knockback effect (though I shouldn't have been).

We always seem to be on opposite sides of any one issue huh Prime . Funny that. Anyways, i would say that there's only a few things to keep in mind for Arcanum. For one, the combat generally is only balanced for tech characters. Apparently, playing a mage or a melee makes the game a cakewalk so any variant of that would probably make the game more than a little boring if you actually desire some challenge in a game at all. I remember you saying you took the advice of someone and used a character that could use Harm on enemies then watch as your minion horde wiped them out. I can't imagine how that wouldn't get stupidly boring, stupidly quick. It'd be the equivalent of putting auto-battle on in Fire Emblem (assuming I actually had that option that is). Secondly, i'd say that in order to make any connection to the Arcanum universe it would certainly help to make a character *you* want to play. Not a character recommended by a guide or someone else, but a character *you* want to play. That certainly helps in Baldur's Gate as well I think. Arcanum probably has the single most compelling character creation i've ever seen. Every single choice you make at creation has an influence on how the rest of your game will play out and the varying backrounds you can choose not only give you additional depth to your character but also give you a starting point if you wish to roleplay it. What's not to like? Generally, i'd say if you don't care about the character you created you're probably "doin it rong" with these types of games. Without any real feeling for your character you'd generally have total apathy for other facets of the Arcanum world. I felt terrible delivering that letter to the train station guard in Tarant only then to have to do a fetch quest of finding him a good coffin maker. It sure as hell didn't feel like a fetch quest when I was delivering to him a tool that would put the love of his life into the ground for the rest of his days. I might even have been the reason for that. If it's "just another quest" I have to do then yea it's not going to be a very fun game but I rather liked that appeal to my emotions because i'm not a robot. I'd say Arcanum requires a fresh set of "eyes" if you will Prime. You might want to try it again at some point.

Likewise. When you do start up Baldur's Gate and you ever find yourself wondering "what the heck am I doing wrong here?" look me up. Funny that you mention IWD as for whatever reason I can't seem to play it for any length of time over like 2 hours max. I don't even find that I have any real problem with the game. It just can't seem to keep my attention span for long at all. But then again lately it's seemed like that with all (soon to be 4) of the games i'm concurrently playing (Arcanum, Fire Emblem:Awakening, Europa Universalis 3 and soon Planescape:Torment). The 3 I'm currently working on I consider amazing so it's certainly not that. I feel old sometimes... I'm going to have to agree with this. I think Sacred's contention here is something along the lines of this. For me, defining a masterpiece is atrociously easy as there's one ridiculously obvious example of one. Chrono Trigger It's a masterpiece. What I consider to be the best JRPG of all time. Strangely, even a quick look at wiki tells me that i'm not the only one who still to this day notices how ridiculously awesome this game is. As I recall, it's even influenced Chris Avellone. Perhaps the best part is even those hacks at guinness noticed this listing it as 32nd most influential game in history. A game so good it keeps being remade. If I gave it a review back in the day it would look something like this: Storytelling: 10/10 Atmosphere: 10/10 Characterization: 10/10 Combat: 10/10 Music: 10/10 Graphics: 10/10 If I reviewed it today the scores would look something like this: Storytelling: 10/10 Atmosphere: 10/10 Characterization: 10/10 Combat: 10/10 Music: 10/10 Graphics: 10/10 You'll notice those scores haven't actually changed at all despite it being some 17 odd years later. Almost, two decades have passed and my scores remain the same. Are graphics now more cutting edge? They most certainly are. Would Chrono Trigger benefit from a reimaging? Nope, doesn't need it and would probably make it worse off. Is amazing ochestral music now available? Sure. Does Chrono Trigger now need an entirely new ochestral track? Nope, you'd lose some of the 32 bit awesomeness of the music. Then you have questions like these: Does Chrono Trigger ever hit a slow part? Nope. Is there any character you dislike? Nope. Did you ever find a fault in the setting and atmosphere? Nope. Was the combat ever boring? Nope Could the combat have been improved with 2013's tech level? Lol Nope (Seen any other games that use 3 or more characters to do one technique? Yea didn't think so). etc. There's nothing you could have improved. It has withstood the test of time. It was the best JRPG of all time. It still might be. It is a masterpiece... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...and I might never see another of it's kind in my lifetime.

FFS Prime could you ask an easier question please? I mean Top 10? How am I supposed to quantify them? Okay let's see here... i'll do my best. Baldur's Gate series (CRPG) - Have to evaluate this as a whole the story isn't complete otherwise. Probably my #1... probably. Chrono Trigger (JRPG) - Made by a dream team. It did EVERYTHING right as far as i'm concerned. Razor thin margin behind my #1. Clannad (Visual Novel) - Most convincing love story i've ever seen in an anime form. Not pretentious or forgiving simply "transcendent." The Witcher 1 (CARPG?)- Setting, atmosphere, gameplay and concurrent storytelling... what more could you ask for? Morrowind (SbRPG) - The Elder Scrolls done right... nuff said. "Mother 2" (JRPG) - There's psychic powers, aliens, slimeballs, bottle rockets, sentient parking meters and a kid named Poo. Yet it works. Advance Wars series (TBS) - Complex Turn Based strategy system that can be easily picked up. Each CO is a potential MONSTER if used right. Final Fantasy IX (JRPG) - Harkened back to the old school Final Fantasy that i loved. Love story done Final Fantasy right.. oh and nods to Shakespeare. American McGee's Alice (TPS) - Craziest rendition of Alice and Wonderland ever. Clearly made by professional game designers. Fallout (CRPG) - It's Fallout.. what can I say? I have no clue what the common factor is among these. They're all uh... awesome? I think they all have "believable" worlds for me. Or rather, they build atmosphere that pulls me in. Edit: Oh and you need to answer my question in the other thread Prime .

Exactly. Though I think we can solve this problem of ours. Math and English do rock after all... just for two entirely different reasons. Care to take the plunge Prime? I got Planescape:Torment sitting right here ready to be fired up. I've already played it once so I can avoid the pitfalls that might get me if I need to but I really won't go into it expecting I need to. The game only generally has as much control over me as I give it anyways. For you, about the only thing you'd "need" to do is simply write *your* story. Baldur's Gate is generally sandbox enough that it allows you to. I rarely for instance beeline to Nashkel. Instead, I usually wander all over the place. I head up north toward Baldur's Gate occasionally picking up a companion or two, quest around the Friendly Arm then head toward Beregost. After that, I hit up the areas around there and take care of a certain pesky cleric. Then and only then (ie generally when I feel like it) do I start on the chapter 2 stuff. As I recall in Enhanced Edition I believe you can write your own journal entries. Maybe write about how you're absolutely sick of seeing bland looking trees. Fall into the world. "Mud" is only whatever you make of it. I'll do it if you do it . Then we can come back to this thread at a later date... or make a new one and see if we've learned anything. At least for me, *knowing* is believing we can actually do this.

I go away for a bit (work... /sigh) and the thread turns into this. I'll be breaking one of the internet golden rules today. I'm going to make this thread a little... personal. So a little history about Raz (considering Prime's put out a few of his tastes i'll oblige). Once upon a time and a half ago back when I was a senior in high school I had forgotten about a writing assignment that involved composing a poem using the letters of your name. As I recall, you got one "cheat" letter that you could add so in the remaining 2 minutes and 14ish seconds I had to do this assignment I wrote a four line poem that consisted of maybe 20 total words. When the teacher got around to calling on me I read my poem and then *boom* the "usual" dead silence. I had inadvertently written something that given them just a single moment of pause and enough time to give me "that" look. The look that said "I didn't realize you were this smart what the hell are you doing in here?" The only thing I could think of was "Why were you impressed... with that?" You see I was quite literally the only kid that I knew of that when asked "Do you like math or English more?" I'd simply reply "I like both" and I did for two completely different reasons. It was a strange kind of pain to have to always realize that if I ever dropped my guard i'd inevitably get that particular look even worse that i'm still the only one that I know of that enjoyed and excelled at both math AND English. I perhaps had more "paths" open to me in life but the only thing it really gave me was utter confusion... and a whole lot of pain. It took me YEARS to figure out what I actually liked and wanted to do with my life and even to this day i'm not doing what I actually wish and perhaps need to do. So, I guess what i'm trying to say is well... i'm a slow learner but I *can* learn. However, I'd like to think i'm not the only one and i'd like to perhaps *know* I am not the only one that can learn. I don't believe in destiny, I never did. I'd like to see what's beyond our hill so i've got a proposition. @Prime and anyone else who feels like *knowing* what an RPG truly is There's obviously at least two groups of people here that have their own views on what makes an RPG what it is so here's the proposition. If you didn't find PS:T all that compelling for whatever reason then you can join me in starting a fresh new game of it using a character that should give you the best experience of it. I, for example, never actually got the full disclosure of why the first incarnation did what he did. I'm going to go back with a build I know will "beat" the game to get him to cough up some much needed answers. That's just one of my goals but the main thing is i'm going to be stepping back and letting The Nameless One give me his own answers because let's face it... it's not actually my story is it? On the converse, for those that find Baldur's Gate comparably lame for whatever reason again I shall state the exact same thing i'd like Prime to "lead" a fresh new game with a different set of eyes then he's used to using. The thing with Baldur's Gate is ironically it is *your* narrative not some other characters. Baldur's Gate is the start of *your* (it is your own) coming of age "ceremony." You start out as a wide eyed, sheltered, naive individual who really doesn't even know much about themselves. The only home you know of is a citadel of books and the only parent you know is an venerable old wizard by the name of Gorion. Your closest childhood friend is a spunky and slightly annoying young lady by the name of Imoen on occasion you feel as if you have to take care of her as if she were your little sister. I'll give one's who dislike Baldur's Gate a little hint to "playing" it (perhaps "experiencing" is a better word). I have a little sister myself who's often much more of a handful than Imoen could ever be so abandoning Imoen is the equivalent of abandoning my sister. I've played through the series 4+ times and Imoen has ALWAYS been in my party even at the cost of party efficiency. If one of my "family" dies I get PISSED. If I don't like a quest i'm given I leave it for later or I skip it. If I find an area slightly bland I move on to the next one. If I find a hermit in the middle of nowhere griping about life I open the biggest can of verbal whoop ass I can find on him because i'm tired of idiots like him. I enjoy every minute of every adventure I have because i've chosen them all. The general idea of this is very simple for both sides. Remember when playing with mud was one of the best things ever? Yea I realize it's just mud to us now but it's not like we can't do it all over again. Make the game you can't love your "mud." Play with it again and don't gripe about what you can't make it do. Instead, do what you can with it and make something awesome. Hopefully, at the end of this we can all gain some fresh perspective. Any takers? Edit: Thanks for the link btw Ffordesoon. You're pretty good guy that's for sure. PS:T is more Narrativist isn't it?

@Sacred Path True RPGs? Right, whatever. Why do I not remember this? Gothic 2 especially again gated you really well. Prime, for example, recognized this. I cleared the first area before the gate of the city in Gothic 2 with ease and I don't think you had a choice after that. It was go into the city or go into the city. Gothic was a little harsher. Ah wait, I did find a way to "cheese" the Gothic 1 + 2 combat system (the only way i could play the games unfortunately) however so if a monster wasn't immune to my sword it would eventually die. In one of my 4+ playthroughs of the BG series my main was an assassin. Lvl 3 still didn't give you any consistency with your hide in shadows ability even more so in broad daylight. Black bears could kill you on the Candlekeep road. There's an Ogre at the crossroads before the Friendly Arm and all you have to do is go a little east. The assassin at the Friendly Arm has more then enough power to kill a party member. There's a sidequest to rid an npc's house of spiders. They are poisonous and thus can kill you. There's a merc band at the temple area as I recall and again can kill you pretty easily. Wouldn't exactly call Baldur's Gate a game that holds your hand. Ah I thought you meant that off screen casting of Stinking Cloud tactic, my bad. Still, the spell couldn't solve all your problems especially when you were ambushed. Also, enemy archers had a bad habit of attempting to kill my mage(s) when a spell was being prepared. I tended to use Web and Sleep instead of Stinking Cloud myself. It was necessary for some of the harder fights. I'd say playing Baldur's Gate at Core difficulty the game might be considered easy but Insane... @Malekith His point is there is very little gameplay in this supposed RPG that would be considered good. If, for example, I am supposed to simply judge it based on atmosphere, storytelling and the thematic nature of it then it should properly have been made a visual novel rather than an RPG. Yet, funny enough, I have seen gripes against this due to it "losing out" on character interaction, atmosphere and visual storytelling. All of which are entirely untrue as visual novels HEAVILY rely on the previous three facets to get their story across. In fact, i'd say that would sum up what a visual novel basically is. All the money goes toward voice work, backgrounds, sprites and cgs which are extremely time extensive and costly because they're more art then anything else (now there'd be something a western based non-anime visual novel). I evaluate games as a whole not by picking or choosing what I consider "good" about it then assigning it with something as far fetched as say "masterpiece level" greatness. You guys really need to pick up a Key visual novel... seriously. We have sub acronyms for this sort of thing. There's JRPGS, ARPGS, CRPGs, SRPGs and more! @Prime *Takes a deep breath* okay let's see here. First off, it should be noted that Philosophy was my favorite class by far in junior college and Logic came in a very close second. I'll attempt to "argue" with you Prime but if your retorts turn out to be "Because it's art!" then I will fail miserably to live up to your expectations of whatever intelligence I supposedly have. This particular facet of conversation would probably be my Achilles Heel unfortunately. Taking into account your no armor example I can understand if it revolves around the character of The Nameless One (namely he is simply not a soul that equips armor) being "unable" to equip armor which in that case a simple fix is in order. Either have his "armors" be something like "Loincloth of The Nameless One" and have it simply be a banana hammock that may or may not have actual armor statistics or make it readily apparent that it is simply not an option in the first place (ie no armor slot to speak of on his character sheet or a giant red x or something in the armor slot). That way I don't have to spend half the game looking for armor that doesn't actually exist which might've obviously pissed me off a tad. Second, in regards to the no sword example atmospherically this makes no sense as Karkarov could attest to there *is* no lack of swords in the Planescape universe. As well, there are plenty of swords in Sigil itself and vendors who deal in them. Again, a simple fix would be to make a sword sprite or two or three add some random sword flavor text/description and write "Unusable by The Nameless One" at the bottom. I really don't think the burden of proof should be on me, the player, to figure this stuff out and why it is this way. That, and I doubt the reasoning is as complex as you make it out to be. I HAVE watched Chris Avellone's Let's Play of Arcanum after all. As a forewarning, I know next to nothing about the Hindu faith (well I obviously know a bit more now) and know only a small smattering about the Buddhist faith. Still, it's not like I didn't pick up on some of the philosophical undertones of Torment. Most specifically I saw the existential nature of the Dusties and the enlightened optimism of the Godmen. Still, I didn't realize it all tied into the karmic system of the Hindu faith and was transposed onto something I would've liked to have just played. There's also one "minor" error within your analysis, both Dak'kon and Annah can equip tattoos. Which would put them where in this great Planescape karmic cycle exactly? As well, while this is most certainly very interesting why do I need to be a Hindu or have extensive knowledge of their faith in order to "come along for the ride?" Again the burden of proof has somehow landed in my, the player's, lap. To me, genuine art pulls you in regardless of race, sex, intelligence, background, lifestyle, etc. Generally these are people we should ignore. Even "predetermined" characters have a story to tell. It'd be the equivalent of griping that a character in a book's personality does not match how *we* think it should and then not calling it a book. Answers require one to actually ask a question. If the person you are conversing with doesn't know what question you are asking is they will obviously not give you an answer to it. I'm not the biggest fan of pretension myself Prime. I am not a smart man for being able to understand something like theoretical physics but I would be a very smart man if I could explain it to a certain female I know who has trouble locking doors. Edit: God this thread is moving way too fast for me. Prime said: Actually, I like PS:T so much precisely because it's a game, and I don't think it would have worked well as a novel or a movie. The novelization was certainly complete rubbish. Why? Because the game format gives you agency. You're actively discovering the story, fitting together the pieces, rather than being fed it in a predetermined order. This process of discovery is uniquely suited for a game, and PS:T is all about discovery. You can still do this in a story by using proper foreshadowing allowing "tidbits" to be given to those that are paying slightly more attention then others. I'm always impressed when some fan analysis of some book or other i've read provides a means of showing me that the story is going to tie in to things in a certain way that I, myself, completely missed! Apparently there's a limit to quoting... lol

@Sacred Path A lot of them i'd say though in truth I *was* just a tad younger at the time and started with JRPGs so I missed most of the Ultima stuff etc. Baldur's Gate was my first real delve into the open ended that could beat my face in. I think I played Fallout later. The Gothics would often "telephone" a dangerous area (see: Orc lands). One map east of the Temple area near Beregost which is still civilization = basilisks. That's not far off the beaten path really. As for thieves their hide in shadows sucked balls till at least 3-4 levels in and in broad daylight you'd still have a hell of a time getting it to stick. Who would creep through every map like that anyways? Which requires non-Stinking Cloud immune mobs, a whole lot of arrows, near endless Stinking Cloud spells, advanced mob placement knowledge and an overly large stack of cheese. I'm not a fan of cheese myself. @PrimeJunta All really, really good choices but I think the similarity between them is they all gated you really well. They also had pretty vibrant worlds. We'll have to disagree about Arcanum though. It pretty much had me at Dernholm. A city that looks like a Roman city in a state of extreme decay? Sign me up! I really haven't been keeping up unfortunately as my 7+ year old computer made out of cardboard and bubble gum couldn't run The Witcher 2. CDProjekt had me at The Witcher though. I WILL buy The Witcher 2 the moment I can play it. *That's* the kind of storytelling I enjoy. That chapter 2 of The Witcher was some of the best written stuff i've seen in a long, LONG time. Two concurrent plots one of which you don't even see? I felt like The Wedding Singer "You had at hello." Good to know though, thanks Prime. @Planescape:Torment the game I wish I could love Well first off can I get a brofist from those who backed the new Torment. I feel it in my bones that game is going to be SICK. They had me at the Tides part. Non-alignment system ftw. Now... onward to the bad. Planescape:Torment was a game ENTIRELY based around the Driving Question trope. This is a dangerous, dangerous thing to attempt largely because if the Driving Question itself is hyped up all through the book, series, game, whatever then the answer(s) to said question better damn well deliver. I give you Lost as an example. If you've seen it I really don't need to say more. Any media that doesn't end in No Naku Koro Ni should not attempt to overly value this trope (no matter how good the writer attempting to be Ryukishi07 is, it is an utterly futile attempt). Sidenote: seriously fail that his best friend and the entire reason he started writing died halfway through Umineko... gotta feel for the man. Planescape was almost okay in this regard except like 1/3 the way through your Driving Question went from "Where is my memory?" to "Where is my mortality?" this doesn't make ANY sense until you hit the Fortress of Regrets. This isn't an example of good storytelling let alone great or masterpiece level. Second, the no death mechanic that Chris was so fond of doesn't make sense in the context of the story. I'm not talking about the part where you get back up and healed all the time but rather that *when* you died the "you" that the player was playing would also have "died." The Fortress explained in very explicit detail what an incarnation was and how it came about. MAJOR design and writing error and for a world that's attempting to build up believability within it this is bad... very bad. Third, why is TTO attempting to kill you in the Fortress? Yet again, the writing and the game mechanics tell me I will *actually* die here if I get killed yet TTO simply wants me to lose my memory.... wait what? Fourth, we have our companions largely stated to be the best ever written and yet I find myself wondering oh so many things. Take for instance, Fall-from-Grace a (quite literally) truly unbelievable character likely the only chaste and Lawful Neutral succubus in the multiverse. Inexplicably, there is basically no reason actually given for why she is both Lawful Neutral and chaste when she's a succubus. Only extremely minor hints of her having any sort of dark side. As for Ignus and Annah.. don't even get me started. Wtb depth. I read Joe Ambercrombie books these cop outs just don't fly with me anymore. Oh and Deionarra, sweet Deionarra, you could've been so much more... Fifth, there is NO gameplay in this game to speak of. Combat is largely a chore and because of this you generally want to avoid it like the plague which leaves you with.... Sixth, Sigil. City of fetching and delivering some things oh and occasionally talking that isn't a repeat of what you've already heard. So much text in this game yet so much of it is the same thing written 14 different ways. There's like 12+ people who will tell you where Lothar is oh and btw could you find my sister for me? Lastly, number seven or adding insult to injury. I call this one "We're cool because of anti-tropes." There are zero swords in this game oh except Trias and Dak'kon have a couple. The Nameless One doesn't know how to use armor but he's got a Wisdom score of 25 and an Intelligence score of 25 as well. The secrets of the multiverse are his to command yet he's too stupid to custom order some armor for himself. That, my friends, is the actual Planescape:Torment. Edit: I almost completely forgot that Fall-from-Grace casts Cleric spells without believing in a deity. That's the equivalent of a Mage not using a spell book in D&D.

This exactly! Weird how I agree with you on this particular point Shade. The first Baldur's Gate is like a sandbox D&D session and I just enjoyed the hell out of building my "castle". *Chuckles* there's no way a simple difference in taste would come between any of the relationships I have you'll always be cool in my book even if we do disagree on various topics. In fact, in general most of the people on this forum board are all in all pretty damn smart and can on occasion step back and take a second look on any of their stances. As well, there are simply times where both sides of any particular issue argue ourselves to at least some understanding of "the big picture" which makes this place a very enjoyable place to chill in. Though i admit i've got a build up of weird and overly complex ideas that I haven't posted that I really need to get around to doing.... Getting around to topic at hand however, I do recall you couldn't get into Arcanum as well which makes me think. Do you really like sandbox games at all? It would certainly explain your position. As for my tastes you don't even know the half of it. Take this YouTube video for instance: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=25&gs_id=6&xhr=t&q=Eikoku+Tantei+Mysteria&es_nrs=true&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Eikoku+Tantei+Mysteria+OP&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWc&fp=4b2fb19019d4620c&biw=1280&bih=873 This, my friends, is an otome game which means it's a Japanese dating sim/visual novel for girls. Yes, girls. Mind you I am an American male. The first thing I thought was "Yea that looks pretty cool" but then again I love Victorian Age stuff along with Visual Novels. As well, that OP is just cute as hell which scares me a little that I think that... *shudders*. As a side note, I can recommend two indie games that are much more in the style of Planescape atmosphere and storytelling assuming that you really did like it for it's setting and it's ability to drag you in. That would be To The Moon and Lone Survivor. Both are simply amazing games for their storytelling. The atmosphere of these low bit games is just... well you just have to experience them. To The Moon has a bad habit of staying in your head for days, weeks and months on end. It's distinctly human story with characters that are beyond realistic and it haunts you ever after. Quite frankly, it was probably the best 10 dollars I ever spent for a "game" (see: short story). Lone Survivor is a mystery/horror 8 bit game that provides atmosphere on a whole different level. It's a game also largely based on the Driving Question trope like Planescape. Namely, the question being "What the bloody fing hell is GOING ON!?" However, unlike Planescape it doesn't use the trope as a crutch. In fact, most of the main questions in the game remain unanswered even after you've gotten the best ending (green) yet despite this the ending is again one of the most satisfying i've ever had the pleasure of experiencing. The music for it is just... wow. I wouldn't recommend listening to the Survival track however as it's pretty pivotal in mood setting when you do finally hit it. Lone Survivor is the title track btw and more then worth the listen to get a feel for the soundtrack as a whole. Whatever crappy games you're currently playing aren't worth the effort of not spending 10+ bucks to fund these indie guys and play their games for the (unfortunately) short stints you'll get to play them for (You can beat Lone Survivor in 3 hours if you're taking your sweet time). More on Planescape and Tides of Numenera after i've played a bunch of Europa Universalis III. Maybe... Edit: Apparently YouTube no like being linked to anymore... or something.

Pointing to Tides of Numenera is not concrete evidence that people who enjoyed Planescape would back it. Torment: Numenera *already* looks a hell of a lot better then Planescape was. In what excactly? Taken from the kickstarter page: Reactivity, Choice, and Real Consequences. The game emphasizes replayability and reactivity, and your choices will make a real difference. You can play the game with a different approach and discover entirely new pathways. Most important, we won't tell you how to play. The best ending is the one you choose, flowing naturally from your actions throughout the game. I see entirely new pathways listed there. Planescape kicked you in the balls if you didn't play a high intelligence character (ie a Mage). Assuming that their above statement is not untrue, then it would stand to reason that you'd have a hell of a lot more choice then you did in Planescape. That would be only one of my many gripes with Planescape. Anyways, i'll give you guys some better answers later on in the day when I have some more time.

You're breaking my heart Prime. I think my avatar's a dead giveaway that i'm a BG fan at heart. I don't even know where to begin to be honest as we seem to be completely opposite in how we view what makes a good game or not. Baldur's Gate is OLD for one (we've talking close to 15 years here) and came at a time where close to every game was holding your hand as you played it. Even Morrowind which is probably my favorite open ended variant or some of the Gothics wouldn't kick you in the nuts quite as hard as BG could if you strayed off the path slightly. Basilisks were the definition of death and you could easily run into them if you didn't watch it. Tack on some of the other nasty creatures you could bump into and the game could end up being a "How I died in the Forgotten Realms" the video game. It kind of reminded me of my masochistic DM in my D&D days without his overly large ego. The game let you do what you wanted... but you paid for it. Still, despite the difficulty level, it rewarded you for exploring it's "depths". Hidden treasure, way the hell out of the way side quests, enemies *worth* fighting (not the Raz falls asleep on keyboard and enemy dies type) and a horribly varied landscape. Even it's bare bones maps gave you a specific feel because you're out in the wilderness (which is very open in real life and in the game). Playing BG felt like playing D&D on my computer. As for the story, music and VA we'll just simply have to disagree. The opening BG title, the Cloakwood forest theme, even the Friendly Arm theme is all great atmospheric music. Concerning the VAs, if Sarevok or the narrator don't impress you then I really don't what to say. To be honest i'm a little curious what you'll say about the BG II music. Planescape: Torment however, will require a point in time where I have a little more time to express my thoughts. I suppose i'll save that for later. Oh and let's leave the hyperbole for someone else Prime. If a 14+ year old *could* write a better score/story/jokes/whatever for Baldur's Gate then it would be dead easy for *you* to do so. @Malekith Pointing to Tides of Numenera is not concrete evidence that people who enjoyed Planescape would back it. Torment: Numenera *already* looks a hell of a lot better then Planescape was.

I dunno, why does she? Because that's what she does when heavely wounded inside the dungeon. Seems like developers thought it was completely fair for her to rely on her stealth skills and run away "because head hurts" from her companions already. Of course, maybe you played BG2 such a long time ago, you don't remember... ...tee-hee. Or I just never ended up letting her get low enough to know that. Interesting... Except in this particular case it's simply a non-choice. You can either get a game over or you can content lock yourself out of the rest of the game (oh joy!). Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do something. Offering up such a situation to a player that early in the game probably would've been more then enough to leave an entirely different legacy than the Baldur's Gate series actually has. Oh and i'm pretty sure your weapons were already unsheaved or at least *mine* were... tee hee. I'm starting to realize that "heavy handed writing" is actually a code phrase every non-writer uses for "part of the story I didn't like very much." In this case it really was though, it was completely unavoidable despite you seeing what would happen from a mile away. And it was done for the obvious reason that you needed a free party slot if you wanted Imoen back in your party. That's more a fault of the game design only allowing 6 party members. At best you can "blame" the devs for taking the players into consideration and writing around that rather than any fault of the writing itself. Would you have thought the same if a completely different character betrayed you at a different point in time?

I'm starting to realize that "heavy handed writing" is actually a code phrase every non-writer uses for "part of the story I didn't like very much." So the "solution" to the maybe 3 minute loss of control of your characters is to scheme up a scenario that simply makes no sense at all? Why would a female character who has just suffered some probably pretty extreme amounts of torture at the hands of good old Jon (as I recall I believe it's Jaheira who states she actually hears your screams) decide to run ahead of your adventuring group to get auto captured before you? Does she break out and not come back for you the PC she is actually attached to or to gather allies (ie strength in numbers)? You remember who Irenicus was *actually* fighting right? Yea I think i'll pass on Imoen's character making no sense to speak of to offer "choice" to the player (this would be a much better example of "heavy handed writing" btw). As for when you actually get there your choices are actually 1) potentially get disintegrated by Irenicus and/or easily recaptured or 2) piss off the ruling class of mages that run the entire freaking city of Amn. I'm sure the player would greatly enjoy a choice between those two very bad ends. Maybe you've completely forgotten because it's been a long as hell time since you've played BG 2 but the first time I encountered that cut scene the one thing I was thinking was "Man i'm SO glad i'm not involved in this fight." That was of course before Imoen blasted Irenicus after which I was saying "Uh oh." That has to be the worst example i've ever seen of a "solution." Cut scenes are not inherently evil nor is a player lacking a choice.

You've certainly got a point here Lephys. Money, time and manpower all need to be spent efficiently because they don't have unlimited amounts of it. I'd say that's the biggest and most viable concern. But, it certainly makes you wonder doesn't it? After all, it wasn't I that decided to do a game based on souls (which obviously opened the door to viable amounts of time travel story telling, multiple "perspectives" and the like). Thanks for actually stating what the Half Life expansion was btw... nothing more frustrating then seeing a reference to a game I haven't the foggiest clue about. As for the expansion thing, it might actually be worth a shot but the general idea I had in mind for the "first playthrough" was that you couldn't quite stop the main villain. I'm not sure how the player base would take such a loss. Though it would probably be a very good incentive to buy the expansion so what do I know. Is that a Fifth Element reference I see? Went up quite a few notches on the awesome-o-meter with that one Lephys. Kind of. I think the bolded part is where people often get hung up and i'm not entirely sure why that is. I always find it so damn "funny" whenever our average adventuring group boldly and proudly goes up to the king/mayor/whatever and says that they will cure all the ruling parties' woes. I always have one question in mind whenever this comes up "Where the hell are the royal guards?". I've seen one and only one instance where this would actually be plausible in real life and that was in an indie game. Should this area be "content locked"? You bet it should. Kings didn't exactly grant audience to every Tom, **** and Harry that strolled into their courtroom. But I have digressed as even this really doesn't matter because players are actually okay with content locking. I'd say Arcanum was the game that would be the most obvious example of the former statement. If you've never played it then you just have to know that all of your starting statistics would *greatly* influence how your particular game would play out. I ended up making a low charisma character that I later regretted playing. I could only ever have 1 companion or I could spend extremely valuable character points on boosting it up at the cost of needed combat viability. There was a choice I had made at the beginning of the game and it had a (noticeable) consequence to it. I do not fault Arcanum for this. If anything, I applaud the actual consequences of the real choices I have to make even at character creation. You cannot do everything with one character in Arcanum thus there is replay value (and a hell of a lot of it). In order to do this, they have to lock you out of specific paths you *could* have taken with a different character. This would be locking you out of content though whether you'd consider this "arbitrary" or not is up to you. You see content that's locked would really only be considered arbitrarily locked if you could actually reach it in the first place. Maybe your second playthrough of the game is actually the prequel to the events that happen at the beginning of it. Your character has "memory loss" at the beginning of it yet the main villain keeps subtly implying that their is familiarity between the two of you. So the first playthrough you piece together events that should be in your memories but are not for some reason. Maybe *you* are the reason for the rise of the villain. Maybe you need to stop this from happening, maybe you don't. Maybe you need to kill "yourself" to save the world or maybe *you* are the shadowy figure that gets introduced halfway through the game that axes the main villain before you ever reach him. Maybe you end up crushing your "former self" resulting in the bad end you get at the end of the game. Maybe you finally get to play a LEGITIMATE anti-hero (Raz's favorite archetype). The possibilities, of course, are near endless. You know now that I think about it Golden Sun for the Gameboy actually did something along these lines. It was a two part JRPG for the Gameboy that followed a boy named Isaac who due to various events was attempting to stop the "villains" from relighting some lighthouses scattered across the game world. Thing is, when you hit the end of the first cartridge your perspective on whether it's actually a bad idea to relight the lighthouses may actually change. You see, in the second part your main character instead becomes Felix who's goal is to actually light them. This makes absolutely no sense unless one thing has changed (your perspective). You basically play the second game attempting to do something you were trying to stop in the first. This would be an example of good world building. Man, sometimes it feels like the Japanese always beat us to the punch...

*Waves to Lephys and TRX850* Hey guys. I kind of formerly posted an idea on this about a month ago only it was a little more complex and less "New Game Plus" like. It went over alrightish but i'm not really sure most people like this kind of idea. Might want to check it out and tell me what you think if you missed it: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63136-design-challenge-new-game-or-true-route/

Now we're talkin'! *High fives Ffordesoon* Yea Fire Emblem definitely isn't your grandmother's SRPG. Chapter 3 was the first time I had to realize that i'd better start taking it as serious or more serious than Advance Wars (made by the same company which I totally didn't know). What happened (because I am a *complete* newbie to Fire Emblem) is I sent Fredrick in to mop up the top half of the map. He proceeded to get one-shot by the guy with the hammer then Sumia bit it to an archer then My Unit got crit and one shot. Bing! Bang! BOOM! You're dead! I generally *start* playing ALL of my games on Hard or above. I just hit Chapter 6 of this game and to think there's a Lunatic and a Lunatic+ difficulty makes me want to cry. This might be the only game I can't complete on max difficulty and I play Ys games as well. I really hope I get better at this game. I saw a developer round table where one of the devs flat out admits that Lunatic difficulty 'just ain't right' basically. I want someone to hold me... Edit: This thread is now about Fire Emblem: Awakening. Oh, and I bought a Gameboy 3DS XL simply to play this game. It was well worth it. Edit 2: We got any Fire Emblem veterans in here that can give us newbies some advice?

So uh i've kind of maybe just maybe been playing the hell out of Fire Emblem: Awakening instead of say responding to this thread. Still I must admit I am a little surprised at some of the discussion that has cropped up. It's almost like how we have to make up new grievances in an effort to never actually agree on anything. I think one of the original reasons of the objective xp vs kill xp 100 year war was to allow "alternate" paths or solutions to be on par or as rewarded as when you take the kill path. Personally, I disagree with this sentiment because assuming you broker something like an alliance between the two strongest factions you should get way the bloody fing hell MORE xp then with the kill xp path. Regardless, I ended up attempting to agree with the sentiments of individuals who number among the objective xp crowd and decided to come up with a solution that allowed viable freedom to the player. Strangely enough, after setting up a minimum sub objective if you will this seemed to be viewed as somewhat arbitrary decision. I have no idea why this would be. Some people wished to express that instead of xp being rewarded for completions that they should instead be rewarded for partial completions. This makes absolutely no sense because these are the same individuals who prior argued *against* partial completions. If you lower the health of a single orc to 20% you get NO xp for this because you did not actually complete the sub objective of "kill the orc". While it is true that you can somewhat arbitrarily set any number of health percentages to lower a mob's health to then reward xp, it makes about as much sense as rewarding xp for a half picked lock. Not only that lowering a mob's health to 0 would easily be the "cleanest" solution. It enables to the developers to set a point of balancing that is simple and easy to provide parity for. As well, it is a point basically all players know and are more than a little used to. So while I can somewhat understand sentiments against setting it up how I set it up it basically boils down to whether I agree with an elder scrolls based xp system. Considering the original goal was to find an objective xp based system that worked you might end up ticking me off just a little if you decide to move the goal posts on me. It should be noted that we have also already largely addressed balancing issues with a reputation system that provides consequences for whatever choice you may make. The answer really is thus. A real life example of the most "efficient" method of getting cash would be to rob a bank. Seeing as how it is the *most* efficient method to get quick cash it stands to reason that large flocks of people would be attempting to do this. However, they are not. Why? Well since noone ever seems to answer my questions anyways i'll answer it FOR you. It's simple, the consequences outweigh any potential "efficiency." In a sense, this is what we look at such a reputation system to achieve. ACTUAL "parity" of choice. Now what was the problem again? Edit: Raz does not condone the robbing of banks. As a side note, Fire Emblem: Awakening is my very first Fire Emblem and boy it sure as hell ain't a cakewalk even early on (Classic Mode on Hard). @KaineParker Seriously is there an easy way to get funds in this game... feels like an actual war. I don't want to lose any of my units and my war chest seems to stay permanently empty. I all but screamed at my Gameboy when some gerbil of a enemy one-shot Sumia. I was like "Like HELL i'll let you kill Chrom's future waifu!" *Ahem* anyways carry on folks.

@TRX850 Ah TRX850 you're breaking my heart man. We usually see eye to eye on things. This isn't a combat xp + skills xp + objective xp + quest xp all in one. That's clearly a ludicrous system to adapt and I certainly wouldn't be a proponent of such a thing. No this is very clearly a simple objective based xp system. Sub objectives are simply divided into the smallest and easiest possible quantifiable number which would be that of the number 1. The interval being 1 allows for complex game balancing on the designers part because they can look at each individual sub objective and balance according to the difficulty it *should* be given before focusing on the "greater whole" (in this case the objective/quest that you are currently pursing) and setting balance and experience points from there. I think this should be fairly easy to understand. Mmm... or am I missing something? Excellent post as always TRX850. Yes all sub objectives should be balanced in a non-trivial form. An above example of breaking into Bill the Uber Noble's house should *not* be an easy task. Avoiding guard patrols should take viable amounts of time, effort and energy as well as brains (from the player). Cracking his safe might be significantly more difficult then something as trivial as clicking your lockpick skill and then hoping it's high enough. No, instead you might have to find the code to his safe by a) capturing and torturing the information out of Bill himself and thus effecting your reputation negatively or b) finding the code written in a book within his hidden library or c) saying "screw finding that code" and instead blowing it open with explosives alerting the western half of the continent of your misdeeds. @IndiraLightfoot I know, my brain tree is defoliated as by the horrid Agent Orange. I have read quite a bit of posts in the thread, and the contention seems to be precisely that: Party encounters a group of leprechauns, but after having killed a third of them for spite, they move on, as they are lured away by a will-o-wisp into a mere nearby. With objective xp, would the party get no xp in such a case? Yes or no. I could ive with no, but it's very rare and brave for a CRPG to do so. Factoring in a bit of Fallout NV and Raz' and others ideas, that third of the leprechauns would be made into objective xp anyhow, no? Case solved? That's a great idea Indira! I kind of wish I had thought just a bit more and come to that conclusion . @Lephys I don't think we'd have to worry too much about that problem as long as the designers properly balance their objectives. Sub objectives are balanced within their own objectives or tier 2 objectives if you will. If kill 1000 xvarts was a completely trivial encounter by the time you got to it then it was stupid game design in the first place. Which is one of the reasons i'm not exactly a fan of fetch quests. There's no actual challenge involved it's more like a chore. Edit: Sorry I was gone a bit. I went to the doc's office and had to find a physical copy of Fire Emblem: Awakening (because yes I like both SRPGs and JRPGs... as well as some ARPGs).