Razsius

I really don't understand why everyone seems to love Planescape. I just don't. I've hit Curst... finally. I have to say for a goodly chunk of this game it has been a slog. A slow creeping death through the seemingly endless amount of fetch/delivery quests. Now some of them have some wit to them but more often then not they are more of the "Why am I everyone's runner again?" type. Delivering flyers, coming up with an answer to a stone warrior's question only to find him a worse trainer then the one in the previous zone, getting a guy's outfit for a costume party, delivering a message between siblings and the list of utterly epic quests goes on (let me go grab my pillow real quick here). Occasionally through the slew of atrocious questing you get a memory or two which is basically just enough to drive a man dying of thirst slightly insane. But hey there's always combat right? No, that's lackluster as well until you hit the Modron Maze. Yep, that's right folks a randomly generated dungeon where literally every single room in said dungeon is exactly the same. All rooms contain between 1-3 constructs and because Chris Avellone has a hand in this game they have to talk to you every *single* time you enter a new room. This is, of course, completely not infuriating. Next, we have companions who come equipped with such riveting banter involving Morte staring at Annah's tail, Annah complaining about Grace and Morte telling me to dump Mr. Human Torch (aka Ignus) and here I was getting tired of Jan repeatedly ribbing Keldorn (absolutely hilarious), Keldorn telling a rather grisly story of his past to a too eagar Anomen (he even shut me up) and Imoen sharing experiences and stories that only two Bhaalspawn could really understand (Imoen being vulnerable was one of the best parts of the game... you got to watch her heal from it as well). Getting anyone besides Morte to talk is like tearing down a brick wall by hand (and yes I know I have to talk to *them*... the lazy bastards). I mean when Grace isn't trying to beat off her nature with a stick she... err wait *is* she even doing that? I can't tell. Why should I care about Deionarra's love again? Wait, I made a weapon to kill *myself* because...? I'm looking for my mortality so I can... what? Mr. I Think of Fire 100% of the Time follows me because...? Brass tax: I don't like games based entirely on mystery (games ending in no Naku Koro Ni being the exception). I'd really like to know what's so compelling about Planescape.

You do realize that within that article you linked me are nested both the Jedi and the Sith codes (or perhaps creeds would be a better word) right? You might want to read the both of them as they tend to be well.. polar opposites of each other. An *extremely* simplified version of them would be: Oppress Emotion (Jedi) and Express Emotion (Sith). There really isn't much in the way of a middle ground there which is generally why all of Jolee and Kreias arguments fall flat. When the chips were down at the Sith temple in KOTOR I Jolee sided with exactly who you'd expect him to side with (the Jedi). He could've been the first vengeful "grey" Jedi.. except he would've been a Sith and he basically said as much thus his choice. A great many of Kreia's teachings if not all of it was basically Sith teachings but assuming you completely ignore that fact you might have forgotten *how* a Sith becomes a Master. I'll give you a hint: Kreia used the method on you the player character. But all this is neither here nor there. I don't think he was quite getting at what you are saying. When you use a blatantly simplified version of course it sounds really stupid. But if you murder people to save others is that really a good or an evil act. Even more rare are the instances where the actual influence of the event has any meaningful consequences for the action. I like how in Dune Paul ends up absolutely destroying House Harkonen and taking over. Strangely, though he completely eliminated a vile and evil faction it ends up costing him (and the Fremen) a great deal in the immediate and somewhat distant future.

I wouldn't exactly call Kreia a "grey" character largely because despite her vast characterization and relationship development she was at the end of the day a Sith through and through. It was essentially telegraphed at the very, very beginning of the game that she'd "turn out" to be one. At the latest it should've taken you the very first influence option choice with her to figure it out. It wasn't so much that she didn't allow you to answer neutrally (the very few times you could) but that you'd almost always get docked if you answered like a Jedi *would* (or perhaps should is the better term). It also didn't help that there is no such thing as a "grey" Jedi or a "grey" Sith in the Star Wars universe period. Jolee never convinced me and neither did Kreia they basically stuck to the teachings of their respective orders and that basically is the fundamental key. Still, i'm certainly not against more Kreias in regards to characterization and development.

That's generally not a good example because Kingdoms of Amalur gameplay is only mediocre. A better example would be something like Planescape: Torment vs. a Tales of game or Chrono Trigger or something and i'll certainly tell you Tales games tend to be engaging as hell with only mediocre story. On the other hand i'm sitting in the Clerk's Ward in Planescape feeling like i've done a crapton of fetch questions and still waiting for the story to grab me (but then again having a "big mystery" be the main driving force is generally a storytelling crutch).

At the end of the day, if we're really being honest with ourselves this particular subgenre has it's fair share of problems gameplaywise (IE games specifically and even some of the turn based rpgs we love). RTwP is perhaps my least favorite form of gameplay and it did a bad job of "mimicking" turn based games with it's auto pause feature. I play(ed) them at max difficulty and it was a little more then easy to realize how clunky it played when it's required at such a level to issue new orders after every action which coincidentally come at irregular intervals as well as periods of time they were "out of turn." When the ogre can instantly kill your main tank who's got nearly max level hp this can be problematic. I recently picked up both Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment off GoG. Considering i'm playing both of them at the same time and they are basically polar opposites of each other I find that both struggle to keep my attention in the way that Baldur's Gate I+II could (ah the hours and hours of lost sleep...). Each of them feels like it's missing something and each of them can certainly improved on where they are considered "strong". Personally, I don't think a truly great game will be made unless BOTH story and gameplay get the attention they deserve.

I'm a little miffed my first post was immediately grouped into a subset of players that supposedly lack taste in music. Gee thanks. The funny part is orchestral pieces are some of my absolute favorites. So I did go back and listen to the main Arcanum theme and found it quite good actually. On another note how about songs in Latin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2FGCFKFz3A Which translates to: Marrow, Never to Come The moon silently tells With a voice unheard by all Of the ever-repeating rise of the tide Whose sight I remember from my fading memories The stars secretly tell With letters known by none Of infinite, swirling words That birth books beyond count The sky is too vast for one such as me And the pace of time is far too swift Forever lost The words gathered for naught Will simply rot inside the earth Even so I will shout out I will raise my voice not knowing why At least its echo can reach the heavens And before long the sun will rise Also, did everyone *forget* how awesome The Witcher music was or something?

Ah makes sense now. I do finally remember there was a single existential encounter in Bloodlines. That was when Isaac turned Ashe against his will. That truly was a very human moment portrayed by a vampire and the consequences were pretty far reaching for the both of them. Not really. If you know anything about how your body works with a lack of blood it's no laughing matter. If I recall correctly you have something like ~8 liters of blood in your body (hmm google says ~6 quarts I think i'm close... maybe). If you lose over half of it you're basically dead or will be in the rather immediate future. The vampire would have to suck something like 3-4 coffee mugs worth of your blood before you're toast. That's not exactly a very big "meal". Even if it drank 1-2 mugs worth you'd basically suffer from anemia (due to blood loss obviously). 3 mugs worth and you're basically not getting out of bed... starting to see the problem? I don't see how satelite weapons which would need a massively advanced targeting system would not be useful against humans as well (just how the hell do those things work in that universe?). You know what I don't even care anymore. I'd be a little more "in game scared" if the threat didn't have a blatantly simple solution to it. Even if the doom of the vampire race *was* actually contained in that box all you had to do was not open the thing (apocalypse averted). I'd kind of expect the vampires that did live more then a couple of decades or centuries to be able to figure that one out. A vampire can kill a single human quite easily.. they can also kill a great many humans again very easily. This constitutes "absolutely no threat level" how again? You may have forgotten but nuclear explosions tend to have long lasting effects after a bomb is dropped. Napalm sets *everything* on fire then continues to burn the hell out of everything around it. Not exactly precise weapons. Tack on the fact that vampires as I recall congregated in cities amongst humans. How do the citizens, who hypothetically are supposed to be protected by their respective governments, remain unmolested in such a scenario? Why does this even matter seeing as how humans don't even know vampires exist? I'm very afraid of the murderer who doesn't know I exist after all... err wait. While I don't know about lions (I think if I was dumb enough to run i'd have a very good reason to be afraid) I do know one thing: Yes, very much so especially ones that are barely phased by guns, regenerate and wish to eat me. Bonus points go to vampires that can turn invisible or turn my mind into mush. Pretty sure I don't have much of a chance then... ...And with that I will wish you a very good day sir. These conversations are far too tiring by the time I actually type them to debate whether World of Darkness mechanics/lore/or whatever will have an influence on the general idea of what i'm getting at. Keeping my yap shut about it from now on. I'll tell you one thing I did rather enjoy the whole Necromancer's Guild approach our latest forumites posted. Keep it up guys.

Now we're talkin! That would definately be an awesome version of "quest markers". I was always sad when an NPC would point out on your map a quest destination as it meant very little to me because it wasn't visually displayed. I usually thought "I wish he/she would mark it". Getting a quest then having the npc mark where it is on your world map where they'd mark where it should be or circle an area to find whatever it is you are looking for along with some text written in as a distinctive note from the NPC itself would be pretty cool. Getting a quest from a drunk where his note is basically chicken scratch and almost illegible would be a nice touch. Want a clean map again? Just buy a new one from a nearby store.

*Chuckles* Well it seems Monte also gets it. Why *do* you always find a lich or necromancer in some hole in the ground or better yet a blatently obvious tower? The Nosferatu being tech savvy aside as I recall it was an extremely small subset of *humans* that performed an experiment upon you in game. The Kuei-jin were just backing/behind them (yes I was paying attention in class). As for the vamps being highly technologically advanced doesn't that make one of my points for me. "Ancients help us all it's the humans we might even have to fire our satellite lasers to kill them dead." I can see how nukes they totally couldn't blow out of the sky might concern them. Also that means vampires are not a threat to humans. Again, yes I was paying attention. The supposed Gehenna threat "end of days" thing was pretty hard to take seriously considering it was just a Schrodinger's cat thing with the coffin. Beckett himself basically says it's all hogwash then changes his mind telling you not to open the box that's largely because there's a bomb in there (which of course will end your unexistence). First, the vampires in LA do not I imagine constitute the entire vampire population. Second, vampire political squabbles can be bloody and may even lead into war. Third, there are things like pyrrhic victories even for vampires. The Kuei-Jin threat was not at extinction levels. As for other "stronger" supernaturals you're probably refering to say werewolves which coincidentally Nines manages to kill with his bare hands (I killed one as well by outsmarting said "stronger" enemy). As for Jack's speech about napalm and nukes overuse of either of those (ie apocalypse levels) could also kill every human and seeing as how humans (aside from the really stupid ones it seems) don't even know that vampires exist it's a pretty non-existent threat. Not to mention with the more advanced technology they apparently have couldn't they just blackmail all the human leaders into standing down? World of Darkness lore is starting to look a tad comical to me... I haven't watched an Underworld movie since the first. Though if there are vast amounts of this stuff (I really don't keep track) then maybe vampires should simply not be in Project Eternity. Tell me about it. Wait why was I arguing with Giant again? Man i'm going to bed.

I really need to play that game... Wait, there was existential horror in Vampire: the Masquerade? Or are you refering to Redemption or something? I certainly never felt bad about being a vamp while playing (again humans amount to just above cattle in game). You had to go on a massive feeding spree in broad view just to arouse any kind of vampire hunter presence and the ones you *had* to fight were almost comical. On the other hand, what kind of world is one where the vampire is ceaselessly hunted and or enslaved to near extinction by an extremely powerful organization or nation(s). You'd really have to wonder then who the "bad guys" were when a "race" that strong lives in constant fear for it's err "life". Regardless Project Eternity's world doesn't feel like one that will even include vampires but it's just a thought. I love history i'll have to check that out. I knew you'd understand. All kidding aside i'd definately like some giant monsters to be able to kill me dead. I'm not exactly afraid of ants after all. The World of Darkness "life" for a vampire was basically a civilization that would go absolutely nowhere and do the same exact crap for eternity. It's enough to make you pity them.. almost. Which is also portrayed in other vampire mythos like say True Blood. You remember any scientist or philosopher vampires in Vampire the Masquerade because I certainly don't (Beckett and Grout were about the only ones doing anything meaningful). Fear was never truly explored or at least for me it wasn't. I wasn't exactly afraid of anything even including breaking the Redemption or going on a titanic killing spree for the hell of it. As for death and close to extinction those really weren't worries either as vamps in the World of Darkness lived sort of "outside" humanity they weren't being actively pursued by a *relevent* threat. Lastly, vampires were a threat in Vampire the Masquerade you even chased a vampire that used his power to exact vengence in a quest. Vampires are known to exist. Vampires are either enslaved to humans and the other races or ceaselessly running from them to remain in existance as a whole. Vampires are *not* higher up on the food chain because they are too busy trying not to die.. again. Something like that... I've never really heard of this scenario however it is probably largely irrelevent regardless. I think I have that game. As I recall I played it for a half hour and then could never play it again because it bored me to tears. I can't remember why that was though. Edit: Missed one.. or two. Yea I hear ya. It's certainly hard to get some fresh takes on these things. I especially like your latter two examples as if they both exist it implies that the player himself can be fooled into thinking he understands the Project Eternity world but could actually know absolutely *nothing*. Always hated the fact you could figure out all the workings of say Baldur's Gate (the city). Life isn't even like that let alone a fantasy world you don't even know the history of.

I have played Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines so I know you're definately not refering to how awesome LaCroix was as he was this: to the tee. Now Jack... was a nice change of pace (because he actually learned something in his implied long lived lifetime) but even his vampire philosophy was basically "Unlife sucks or it doesn't... your choice." Also, there's absolutely no interaction with humans that don't involve feeding on them, pseudo turning them, mercilessly slaughtering them or exploiting them (ie the usual vampire stuff). There was definately some enjoyable stuff in the game to be sure (like the "woman" in the hospital) but it didn't totally redefine vampires either. Do tell. I'd really like to know about your compelling necromancer/vampire/"normal" monster stories or fresh approaches. Look, it's not like I want this stuff to be the main theme(s) of the game but if I stumble across a necromancer I want him/her to have a viable reason for being as such. Is that really too much to ask? Not to mention the fact that you might just might be able to extrapolate most of this stuff into the greater whole. Take dragons as another example. They've become more and more pansy as RPGs have gone on. Occasionally you have to gain a few more levels before you fight them but the reality is if a dragon could rend you in half with a sweep of it's claws at level 1 it should still be able to do so at level 20. When was the last time a dragon roar blew you 5 rooms back allowing the concussive force to kill your entire party because their bones turned into powder? How about when said dragon turned the forest you were fighting it in into a giant crater? Exactly...

Nothing bothers me more then how one-sided these two enemy archetypes have become. It's so bad there's probably a trope (or tropes). You see the irony is one (the necromancer) is an enemy archetype based on bringing back that which is forever lost and the second (the vampire) is based on the concept of an *unwilling* death with an almost eternal afterlife. In regards to the necromancer the encounter usually involves you vs the power mad/completely evil/totally insane necromancer and the conversation usually looks something like this: Necromancer: "MWAHAHAHA you will now become new recruits in my giant army of the living dead. They will cut a swathe of dest... bla bla bla bah BLAH BLAH BLA!" You: "Your reign of terror ends tonight!" *queue butchery of said necromancer* Obviously not very compelling. But if the moment you found the necromancer and decided to have a chat with him/her resulted in you getting an eyeful of an illusion spell cast upon *showing* you the events of said necromancer's persecution and subsequent death/torture of family/children or even grandchildren you might rethink your actions. Waiting long minutes in game as the necromancer tries fruitlessly to reattach a soul to a mangled corpse and fails... over and over and over and over and over and Over and Over and OVer and OVer and OVEr and OVEr and OVER and OVER again. THAT'S compelling. On the other hand, we tend to slaughter vampires by the dozens (the undead monstrosities totally deserve it because they're all evil of course). But again useful storytelling would make them once again very compelling. As I stated before vampirism in most mythos is usually a *very* unwilling event that happens to the soon to be vampire. Strangely, near all media concerning this particular variety of the living dead ends with the vampire aging many hundreds of years and losing any and all wisdom it may have gained in it's hugely extended life as well as developing an ego so massive it's almost always the downfall of our almost immortal. Yet, rarely do I see the vampire portrayed as a compelling existentialist struggle (for it certainly would be). The ever necessary hunger that needs to be sated to continue the unlife. The total change of sleeping and waking hours (Vampires don't ever get to see the sun again). The instant and massive power granted upon turning and so much more. What is "life" to a vampire? What is "fear" to a vampire? What are "friends" to a vampire? What is "death" to a vampire? What if the vampire race was the one close to extinction? What if they posed absolutely no threat level at all to the other races? What is choice in Project Eternity? Compelling... Do you think the developers could take this kind of design challenge?

Oh hell yea the Pirates of Darkwater was a great cartoon as a kid. I always wondered why there was no game for it either. Ship battling would certainly be an interesting take on RPGing. I haven't the slightest clue why it's not done either. Best you can do is buy FTL which is an epic win game (not an RPG though).

Oh? Never played any Arcanum myself but how does liking it's soundtrack have anything to do with what RPGs you play? While I rather enjoy some of the pieces being posted, I am much of a minimilist myself. I'm alway amazed at how much you can accomplish when you largely feature a piano. Such a horribly versatile instrument and by far my favorite. You get some legendary tunes that are extremely "small" like: This tune is almost cruel when you get to it in game. I'd say the overall feel is "Hope" but *when* you're listening to it you feel nothing but "Loss". Then there's: Music is definately mega important to a game. I'd say the most important part is creating your own style that fits the game (Planescape: Torment and The Witcher come to mind) as well as not overextending the music itself. I'm going to go cry in a corner now because the Clannadverse takes it's toll even listening to 2 songs.