Justin Bell

I think the point here is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some people don't like string quartet, some people don't like death metal, and some people don't like Justin Beiber. And that's ok. I make it a point to feel confident and reassured enough in my own tastes and opinions, and just accept the fact that not everyone will share it.

Yes, that's right. Check out this post from another thread for a perfect example of this: http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1199538 What if you just get both instead? It isn't a question of getting one or the other. Here's why: Music is not a stretch goal because it doesn't need to be. We'll have a full score written for the entire game, and we won't limit the amount of minutes or pieces of music. The main limitation is time, and it's something we have plenty of at the moment. In other words, Project Eternity is going to have a score that's just as rich/deep/long/high quality as all the Infinity Engine games did. That's why we're offering things other than music for stretch goals. It's because music came with the package the moment the project got funded three weeks ago...

For the record, I've played my share of JRPG as well as western ones. I've heard soundtracks for both types are great and others I don't care for. It's all just a matter of personal taste right? In that regard, no one's opinion is worthless, we all bring something valuable to say in these forums. I personally enjoy hearing from everyone wether I agree with them or not. So thanks for posting and keep the discussion alive (and respectful)!

Thanks for posting this Papylon. I designed and implemented the majority of all ambient sound effects for Fallout New Vegas. Ambience is a big deal for us in the Obsidian audio department, and we agree that they are critical to an engrossing RPG experience. I feel confident in saying that I think you will be disapointed!

You got one right! The one at :32 is a Sitar through a guitar amplifier. Well done, and good listening! The bell that you hear is a mixed with a glockenspiel. Any takers on the other ones? There are three more (see below)... (Oh and I lied, there are four non traditional instruments in total, though the fourth one is going to be tough to find...)

You. Sir. Are. Hired. For. Ever.

It's still pretty early to know for sure. Whatever we do decide to use, it will be unified and cohesive. I'd rather focus on a set group of instruments and use those throughout the score than using all the possibilities. I think doing so will help define the musical "voice" of the score. I'm very interested in the possibility of using a unique/eclectic ensemble of instruments, similar (but not exactly) like the silk road example Emeraude posted. As far as which instruments, again who really knows, but I could imagine it might be a mix of traditional western and non-western instruments as well as non conventional elements. What those are exactly, I have no specific idea, just a collection of vague impressions that I can't really put into words yet... South Park is taking up all my time at the moment, and I haven't really had the chance to sit down and think this through, though that day will come. It's really just a matter of time before those impressions inspire something more concrete. I will say that the non western instruments I mentioned could come from anywhere in the world, and if they fit the narrative of PE we'll consider using them. So yes, conceivably they could come from the middle east, but I wouldn't limit it to just there. One thing about middle eastern instruments... some of them have been used to death in game scores (Duduk comes to mind) and I'm keen on avoiding things like that. Back to the trailer, I did use a couple non traditional instruments in it's music! I wonder if you guys can pick them out? Listen to this one: http://soundcloud.co...ternity-prelude Can you guys find them? I'll give you a hint, there are three different ones.

Nice! I didn't know about that. Passed it along to the team for them to consider, thanks Sensuki. Very very cool, thank you for your offer! Sure, especially if we need an NPC that sends people screaming in all directions. Joking aside, who knows? But I think its a cool idea. I think I can agree with you there, but it all depends really. Honestly we will just have to see. It would have to make sense for the project and for the person volunteering. I can't guarantee we'll do something like that, especially since it isn't really up to me, but I have passed it along so we'll see!

!!! That's awesome!

Those are live musicians without a doubt, and of course, it sounds great. That's what we call "source music" in the audio field. Meaning, it isn't a sound track superimposed over the presented material, but rather it comes from an actual source from within the scene (radios and bands are a good example of that). I agree, it would be great to have. I can tell you this is a subject that's come up several times over many projects at Obsidian and people are usually receptive to it. It just needs to make sense in the world of PE...

This sounds great. Just goes to show how atmospheric and versatile chamber music can be. Funny you should mention it though, this something I've been talking about doing for a long time. Maybe PE is the project for it, but we'll see! There's a pretty famous (infamous?) quote from Steven Spielberg where he talks about the importance of sound. "[...]music and sound represent at least 50% of the entertainment value of all my films” Perhaps I'm biased, but I wholeheartedly agree. Still with games, and film, it's very much a collaborative effort. No one works in a vacuum. Francis Ford Coppola says basically the same thing in this documentary. Check it out, its interesting stuff: ! I remember when she did that Skyrim cover. Mesmerizing to say the least. Great music. What you hear there is a mix of sampled (i.e. computer based) and live instruments. Not bad right? The song itself reminds me a lot of the opening of Balder's Gate 1 (up to :12) and afterward reminds me of a blend between the Trine soundtracks with a hint of Elder Scrolls. In other words I think its good Definitely. It's really a matter of whether or not we can get it to work right. It would have to feel right, otherwise it wouldn't be worth it. But its something I would love to do. Not a bad idea.............

Redundant. That is a great way of putting it!

You know what game does this surprisingly well? Kingdoms of Amalur. I just started playing it and I'm more impressed by it than I thought I would be. One thing I noticed was the silence. Music comes and goes, but its far from being wall papered on. Plus its very well written and a pleasure to listen to. Kotaku wrote an article about New Vegas' music that somewhat relates: http://kotaku.com/58...r-without-music I think a lot of this, just like the DS3 example, is that this whole music thing really comes down to personal taste.

Interesting anecdote... I once saw a video someone posted on youtube of someone playing through the Skeleton King's crypt in Dungeon Siege 3. In the video you see the player fighting skeleton hoards as the Skeleton King taunts you. Except this person had muted the in-game music, which was very moody and dark, and superimposed that with the startup screen music which was beautiful, melodic, and haunting. And it worked very well. On the surface you would look at the context and say "Sure! That needs dark music!", but I guess that video proved (to me at least) that this isn't always necessarily the case. Kind of relates back to this post I made a while back: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60342-project-eternity-composer-in-house-or-external/page__st__100#entry1202767 Basically, what I'm saying is yeah I agree that this sort of thing can interfere with the suspension of disbelief while playing a game. It's something we're going to work hard to perfect, because we want to reflect changes in gameplay, but not in such an obvious way. There are, as you guys suggest, subtler ways than switching between layer a and layer b.

Great question, one that we've gotten several times. Ancient is intended both figuriatively and literally. In some cases that will be the implied affect the music will evoke. In others it will mean using period instruments and musical practices (i.e. church modes, motets). We've spoken before about how 16th century Europe is just one of many models that we're using as a reference for PE. Fortunately the musical practices of those times are pretty well documented, particularly for non secular music. Secular music on the other hand is a little more difficult to track down, though there are still examples.

For some reason that duclimer piece reminded me of La Catedral by Augustine Barrios... TOTALLY off topic, but who cares... If you love music, carve out 10 uninterrupted minutes from your life, put on some headphones, turn up the volume, close your eyes and play this amazing piece. I promise, you won't regret it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbD0HLUR6Xw&feature=fvwrel

This is a great point. It's very hard to get virtual instruments to behave like an actual musician. It's always going to be a facsimile. Real musicians are by nature imperfect, and its actually those imperfections that make them sound amazing! Virtual instruments are always at risk of sounding too perfect, and that's the give away for most people wether they know it or not. Recognition of those limitations can make the difference between a succeful score and a poorly executed one. So yeah I agree with this. You have to play to the strengths of your medium, it's too obvious to the listener when you fight against it. I think at the end of the day though, its the music itself that determines how successful a score is. Ultimately, we here at Obsidian are keen on having the most fitting and high quality score possible. And we have plenty of time on our hands to make that a reality. I honestly don't think most people will be disappointed, and I don't mean that to sound arrogant. This is a great discussion by the way!

We're just not ready to talk about it yet... Insert mysterious deflective text here...

Just to clarify, we haven't announced who's doing the music yet. ThIs is still TBD. I can say that we won't use elements that don't seem appropriate to the genre. There are all sorts of synth sounds, some sound very electronic and sci-fi, others sound very organic. I can tell you that if we do use synths, it won't sound this obvious: http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mb324119z#/watch?v=bugi35v1CKk Too cheesy for my tastes!

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet it was a blend of live and sampled instruments. You can tell when listening to the tracks. Live musicians tend to sound more subtle, expressive and nuanced. At least they "tend" to. It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments.

Great poll again jerf, thanks again for going through the trouble. It's up to everyone interested the music to drive this one forward, and I'm interested to see what if anything comes of it!

This is a good opportunity to clarify instrumentation. We will not limit the instrumentation pallet to just orchestra for Project Eternity. My policy on this is that we'll use whatever most effectively supports the narrative. I consider CRPGs like PE longform art, and you need to keep the sonic presence of the score refreshing in order to have that succeed over the course of time. Instruments are like colors on an artist's pallet. If we were to paint the music of the entire game "red", there's a risk things will get boring. To keep things new and refreshing, its in our interest to evolve that pallet in interesting and relevant ways. So if its a renaissance era Sackbut, then its a Sackbut. If its Vangelis Juno patches, its Vangelis Juno patches. String quartet, tabla, classical guitar, 12 string guitar, didgeridoo, orchestra, choir, synths, banging on a metal bridge with drum sticks.... Whatever it takes to make the music awesome, we'll put it in. In the end the score will be cohesive, and nothing is off the table at this point. EDIT: Interesting thing about the Witcher 1 soundtrack... Its all computer based, not live Anyhow, more to your question. It's great music! I have to admit I haven't played the game, though I do own it. I think I'd be in a better position to answer that question after playing it, since context plays a huge roll in how game music is perceived. jerf, thanks for creating the new poll! The first one is great, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression there. But this new one is awesome too if people are interested in getting more granular about this topic.

Great question. I tend to gravitate toward music that has, what I perceive to be, depth and emotional gravitas. And that can come from anywhere, and because of that its hard to single any one source of inspiration out. If I were to name some composers off the top of my head... JS Bach, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Debussy, Ravel, Villa-Lobos, Barrios, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Scarlatti. Even listing out those composers feels a little weird to me, because there's so much more. I really enjoy Michael Giacchino's music, I think he has an incredible gift with musical story telling. Particularly his Pixar stuff. I've said this before, but one of my favorite game scores of all time is from Morrowind. I recently played through Bastion and Limbo, and I thought those were incredible. Shadows of the Colossus was great, and so was Journey. I loved the way music was used in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. I've always been interested in exploring a sort of fictional ethnomusicology for games. So I think this is something I would definitely like to explore, though we haven't talked about it much at the studio. In terms of software, I mainly use Cubase for music and Nuendo for sound design. I own a bunch of sample libraries that I regularly use. Some of the better sounding strings from the KS trailer is from East West's Hollywood Strings. I also own their Symphonic Orchestra but the new strings are way better. I usually reach for Vienna Instruments when I want woodwinds, they sound very authentic. Brass is usually a mix between Project Sam Orchestral Brass and EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. Percussion is all over the place since there are tons of great libraries, but my workhorse library for that is True Strike 1. For synths I mainly use Omnisphere. For basic plug-ins I use Waves Gold or the bundled ones in Cubase/Nuendo. I use Altiverb for verb.

I'd like to reiterate my desire for Classical guitar. I know it might not be possible, but how many actual instruments will you guys use? Guitar holds a special place for me, no question. I started playing when I was 13, and I later dedicated about seven years of my life studying classical guitar performance. I've performed solo, in a quartet, and with chamber orchestras... It was amazing and I wish I had time to do that more. So yes, I'd love to figure out a way to weave guitar in. I miss playing in a quartet most of all....... No way! I love FF music, it's great. Talk about memorable. The opening music for FFIII (VI, whatever) is so evocative. Even today when I hear that music I'm reminded of playing through the game. Funny story, one of the cues that I was writing for PE's trailer ended up sounding VERY FF. It was good, just didn't fit so I abandoned it. 50 minutes seems to be a bit short for a game of this scope. Would it be feasible do you think for an expanded soundtrack to be set as a stretch goal? (subject to Mr Bell's concurrence, of course). Agreed. Let me put it this way: someone is going to have to come in and say "Dude! NO MORE MUSIC ALREADY!" Heh. So 50 is a good estimate I guess? Impossible to say at this stage, though I'm keen on putting as much music in as the game needs. Has anyone every played Castlevania: Lords of Shadow? Amazing game btw, if you haven't played it, give it a shot. Anyhow, the music in that game was reused quite a lot. But it didn't have the effect you might imagine. Instead of sounding repetitive, it sounded more "cohesive", if that makes sense. Brilliant work, really.

No no, not that much at all. A budget for a hollywood caliber orchestra can cost as much as 80-100k+ for a full orchestra (80+ musicians), conductor, engineer, orchestrator, copyists etc for about 60-ish minutes of music. Which is lots of money, especially for a game like Project Eternity. But there are ways to bring that price down significantly. The size of the ensemble, their international location, and other factors play into that. In otherwords, there are options, and the example I gave of the "prohibitively expensive" orchestra is definitely on the higher side of those options. My pleasure. This is what's great about Project Eternity. We're free to talk to you all. I think if the community is vocal enough about it, and it matters to enough people, this could be feasible. I can't promise anything but it's worth a shot. That said, even if we don't get an orchestra or a budget to record musicians, we're still going to do everything we can to make the best score possible for the game. EDIT: One other thing I feel is important to note... In terms of the budget for the game, if there was ever a feature that seemed too expensive or that perhaps threatened to minimize the core experience in some detrimental way, I don't think we would pursue it. So if it's determined that hiring live musicians just isn't feasible for this project, there will more than likely be a very good reason for it.