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Everything posted by ogrezilla
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I really didn't get the impression that it would be the same system as DA or MMORPGs. They still talked about strategically choosing spells and specifically avoided the rest system in the old games. Most importantly, these game developers aren't stupid. They know what they are doing. Too bad there are no other current definition of cooldown system.And we are not sure they do.Keep in mind Obsidian survived Troika due to better business acumen.I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of the most questionable decisions(generic fantasy,level scaling like DAO,cooldowns) were attempts to pander to disgruntled DAO fans. long cooldowns still fit that definition but have a completely different impact on game design and combat. Then why haven't they clarified anything?And will there still be meaningful resource-management if they really go with cooldowns?They frequent internet communities,they'd likely know about the rep of cooldowns,yet they don't clear things up.I guess I'll have to wait and see if I should re-pledge or not. I hate to speculate, but its 7 in the morning where they are, so its reasonable to assume its because they are sleeping. And was there meaningful resource management in any of the old IE games? Not really. And definitely not when it comes to spells.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
You can do a lot of different things with cooldowns. Even possibly a combination of vancian and cooldowns where cooldowns are really replacing rest instead of the spell memorization. Ok, so how do you fix that issue? What is this combo of which you speak in concrete terms? Please, its best to respond with specifics when presented with specifics. Responding in generalities does not move the conversation forward, Honestly, the only way to fix the problem I presented above is to use multiple of the limited "slots" JE mentioned earlier on the same spell. If they allow that, what do you end up with? A mage that casts an extremely limited number of spells very very often. I doubt even they will allow this. Instead, you will just have to accept that you will not be able to cast the same spell in rapid succession. That is a MAJOR blow to what a mage should be able to do. Spell sequencers, etc, are dead. This just kills mage battles as they existed in BG2. Proponents of this system have listed TORCHLIGHT II's system... an action rpg.. uggh.. teriible. I am not sure how Obsidian expected folks to react to this. They tell us they are making an oldschool rpg and then they throw in a mechanic for spells that is more at home in an action rpg. You just gave a perfectly good solution in your own question: let us load up multiples of the same spell. I don't see how that limits your number of spells any differently than the Vancian system does. They could give you the exact same number of spell slots. Then the only difference is you actually have to wait for the spells to recharge instead of just resting to get them back. Just use the same style of spell selection as the vancian system but add long cooldowns based on game time. It would work exactly the same as it did in the old games except you would wait on a cooldown instead of resting. As I've said, that is a problem itself though. I don't want the system to simply encourage standing around waiting for spells to recharge. On that part, I really don't have a good solution.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I really didn't get the impression that it would be the same system as DA or MMORPGs. They still talked about strategically choosing spells and specifically avoided the rest system in the old games. Most importantly, these game developers aren't stupid. They know what they are doing. Too bad there are no other current definition of cooldown system.And we are not sure they do.Keep in mind Obsidian survived Troika due to better business acumen.I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of the most questionable decisions(generic fantasy,level scaling like DAO,cooldowns) were attempts to pander to disgruntled DAO fans. long cooldowns still fit that definition but have a completely different impact on game design and combat.- 661 replies
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I hope there is just a level range that enemies can scale between. If I go back to the very first forest I traveled through as a max level fighter, I want to feel like I am stronger than I was the first time I was there. And on the flip side, I don't want high level enemies to ever be too weak because I got there at a low level. There should be content that I can get to that I just am plain not ready to face.
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I really didn't get the impression that it would be the same system as DA or MMORPGs. They still talked about strategically choosing spells and specifically avoided the rest system in the old games. Most importantly, these game developers aren't stupid. They know what they are doing.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Maybe Im misunderstanding but isnt that what a Vancian system does? on its own, basically. But the rest system ruined it because you could get them back pretty much instantly whenever you wanted. The random encounters weren't enough to really keep you from rest spamming because they were mostly too easy. Like I said above, I think cooldowns are more likely taking the place of the rest system as a way to limit when you can get your spells back. That system would actually reduce spell spamming compared to games like IWD.- 661 replies
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Player skill vs Character skill
ogrezilla replied to Jarmo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I picked 100% character skill, but I would consider player strategy and tactics something different than player skill. basically, what Infinitron said. I say who to swing a sword at, but character skill decides how well he swings the sword. -
[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
reading all of the quotes on the front page, it really sounds like the cooldowns are more likely replacing the rest system while you will still have to make choices about what spells you have available to cast. It seems to me that Obsidian as a whole is still discussing how combat is going to work. It also seems like the bulk of the discussion is on how to solve the rest issue that doomed Vancian in RTwP games. I think you're right, ogrezilla. I really think Obsidian is having a very similar discussion as what is going on in this thread and the ones it came from. So everyone should calm a bit and hope we'll get an explanation on what basic combat system they've chosen before the end of the kickstarter. I would also remind people to avoid the curse of keywords. When designing something new, the language isn't always there to easily explain it. Vancian can be described as a cooldown system and likely would be if it wasn't so fleshed out itself. So even if they are working with a cooldown system it may be a lot closer to the Vancian than to previous examples of cooldowns. This is a good point that can't be overstated. The magic system is still being worked on. Everything is still being worked on. Really, I think the most important thing will be making sure the combat mechanics fit properly into the rest of the game. Design encounters based on the combat mechanics so it is properly balanced. The old games were not built this way. If you used the rest mechanic to your advantage, the game was pretty much a joke because you always had your best spells available for any significant fight but the game was designed around you using your spells sparingly. I like this idea in general. Limiting the resting really does solve a lot of the problems of the old system.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Do you have any ideas on it? A cooldown by definition is a timer based mechanic. How would you change that? To me it seem like a punitive action from the developer to remove "rest spam". Who cares about "rest spam" in a single player game? Its up to the individual to play the game as they wish. I suppose a next logical step would be to introduce a checkpoint save system so people cant "save spam". Longer cooldowns based on game time for one. Not a series of 5-30 second cooldowns that result in spell spamming. More like someone said above: you can cast 2 fireballs a day, 3 magic missiles a day, etc. The key is to figure out a way to discourage just standing around to wait for a cooldown to finish because "waiting around" spamming would be much worse than rest spamming. That's the issue that worries me. Tie game time to actual advancement instead of a clock? I don't know. I'm just spitballing here.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
reading all of the quotes on the front page, it really sounds like the cooldowns are more likely replacing the rest system while you will still have to make choices about what spells you have available to cast.- 661 replies
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Player skill vs Character skill
ogrezilla replied to Jarmo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
for combat, largely player skill. Really player strategy I guess. The skill is all the character. I tell him to attack but its up to the game skills if that attack hits. For things like picking locks, 100% character skill. I hate lockpick minigames in every game that has them. I guess thats a vote for 100% character skill. I want to tell my characters what to do, but its up to them whether they actually can do those actions or not. -
[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
This pretty much sums up my feelings too. Depending on implementation, now Im just going to be standing outside of every room waiting for my abilities to come off cooldown before I proceed. Crafting (specifically being able to turn a commom barrel sword into a legendary) is also a bit of a bummer. IMO, it cheapens the legendaries that will be in the game. Its not special if anyone can craft anything into a legendary. these are smart people designing the game. That is such an obvious flaw in the cooldown system that I have a hard time believing that they aren't getting a little creative with the way it is implemented to avoid problems like standing around waiting.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
what's hard for me to grasp is how people think the vancian system led to strategic or conservative use of spells in the old IE games. It simply didn't. It led to knowing the right spells and rest spamming. As I've stated, that wasn't strictly a magic system problem. It was a bad combination of game designs where the encounter design and the rest system simply negated the strengths of the magic system. But unless the game is going to be designed very differently, the easier solution is to fit the magic system to the rest of the game instead of fitting the rest of the game to the magic system. Real strategy pretty much only exists once even with a well made information gathering system to allow you to choose the right spells. Basically, I'm annoyed that so many people are up in arms over a system we know practically nothing about yet while at the same time praising the vancian system for strengths that simply were not present in any of the old IE games.- 661 replies
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Combat log
ogrezilla replied to armitage's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
for a game coming out in 2014, there really is no reason we shouldn't have decent customization options for things like this in the UI. This is the kind of thing that can be added that will allow the game to feel like a classic style game without feeling plain old. -
[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Yes, awful shame, that, but Sawyer & co. are very seasoned game software developers so I imagine they can come up with something different but still under the "cooldown" umbrella. Personally, I'd love to see a cooldown-Vancian-mana-soul combo system of some sort. Its a good group making the game. I'm staying positive. I don't think I'd enjoy being negative all the time.- 661 replies
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Thinking about this more, I do think I'd really enjoy it in the right setting. I would love to play a good low-magic RPG where anything magical really was mysterious.
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
You can do a lot of different things with cooldowns. Even possibly a combination of vancian and cooldowns where cooldowns are really replacing rest instead of the spell memorization. I would definitely have no problem with it if they do it right. More often than not its done in a pretty unsatisfying and very blatant way. You don't feel smart afterwords, you just feel like someone forgot their spoiler warning. But that's a problem of writing and design, not the magic system. I think we just need to wait and see what they plan to do with this. We know way too little to be making informed criticisms. But half of the posts in the last three hours have basically boiled down to cooldowns sucked in other games so they will always suck or the old IE games used Vancian so vancian is the only choice.- 661 replies
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I think it would work best -- as you said your example was -- in a low magic setting. The more common magic items become, the more it would end up feeling like a hassle instead of a mystery.
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Standing-Still spamming is going to make the game worse. This mega-dungeon they're planning means that after you complete one level, you will just Stand-Still spam on every level and never run out of spells, before going down to the next level. In the IE games, the only way to get the spells back is take the chance of sleeping in the dungeon and possibly get attacked. ya I agree. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but I would have to think the people designing this would be smart enough to see that issue: it is pretty glaring.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed. Why not give the player ingame knowledge of what to prepare for? An encounter with a lich written in an adventurer's diary detailing the spells it used on his fellow adventurers before horribly wounding him and allowing him to wander the cave till his minions ate him alive. A rumor overheard after some mead of spell caster X who specializes in illusions. Finding a mage's spellbook in his room long before you actually face him. Etc. There should be ways of finding out info before battles. that definitely can work, but it really takes away the feeling of intelligence for figuring out a fight. Typically when something like that is included it feels like the game just beats you over the head with the answer and the fight ends up lacking any excitement because you already know what to expect. If it can be done well, I would definitely like to see this implemented instead of just removing that aspect of choosing spells.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
ya that's something I hope they figure out how to avoid. Standing-Still spamming would be much worse than rest spamming- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed. ya unless the game itself can lead you to picking the spells before the encounter with some real strategy the vancian system really just isn't very good for a video game. I know in IWD there are townsfolk who warn you about serpents that petrify you so I chose my cleric's spells accordingly. Even that really isn't my own strategy; it was the game hitting me over the head with a remove petrification scroll.- 661 replies
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[Merged] Cooldown Thread
ogrezilla replied to Ieo's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
The idea of the vancian system is to combine strategic spell choice and spell conservation to require smart use of magic. As a system, its great. But the old games were not built around it well at all. The strategic part almost always boiled down to you knowing the encounters beforehand or else just taking your most general "best" spells. But usually you would only know what to expect because you've seen the encounter before either in a past playthrough or 30 seconds ago when you died and re-loaded. The game needs to do a good job of giving you hints about what you will be facing to make it a real strategic decision. Once you have seen the enemy it typically becomes painfully obvious what the best spells would have been. The conservation part was just non-existent thanks to the terrible rest system. It just wasn't an issue at all. a combination of vancian and cooldowns where you still choose your spells like Vancian magic but cooldowns are used as a replacement for resting sounds awesome to me. But the game still needs to be very well designed to actually allow the strategic part of the system to be utilized.- 661 replies
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