metiman

Although I prefer no level scaling at all, keep in mind that level scaling can be done right. For instance by changing your encounter to a different monster type. At level one you might encounter a few Kobolds. At level 20 you might encounter a few ancient dragons. In some cases even that sort of level scaling sucks, like in fixed dungeons with stories behind them where it makes no sense, but in other cases simply switching the encounter type by increasing the number of foes and/or the type of foes seems to work fairly well if used in moderation. In BG2 Watchers Keep was level scaled in a somewhat annoying way because the monsters at higher levels were more interesting and fun to fight (the difference was minor or major depending at what level you arrive), but it was still much better than Bethesda style scaling where the same puny bandit stays as powerful as you throughout the entire game. If level scaling is the price of nonlinear locations I'm not convinced that it's worth it. It may be more fun to have to progress in a certain order geographically at the penalty of being instakilled at your first encounter. It does more or less force you to proceed in a certain way, but at least the monster levels and types don't feel so ad hoc or random.

The choice is not DA:O and DA2. It is either one. Do you understand the difference between logical AND and logical OR? It's a logical OR. There are only 10 choices in a poll. I had to do the same thing to all of Black Isle's games. Do you think IWD1, IWD2, and PS:T had the same combat system? IWD2 wasn't even a 2nd ed. system anymore. I removed the Electronic Arts reference from the New Bioware even though it cannot be denied that Bioware is now owned by Electronic Arts and that the founders are gone.

The idea behind this thread is to encourage people to point more precisely to the kind of cRPG combat they like best and what cRPG they consider to be the best representative of that sort of combat.

Scouting seems to mitigate if not outright eliminate the "guessing not strategy" criticism of Vancian. If a designer is very concerned about it he can simply offer improved scouting opportunities. Rangers with stealth. Mage familiars with stealth or invisibility. Scouting spells that only other mages can detect. And of course thieves with excellent hide in shadows abilites.

Memory is limited. If you imagine a single spell to consist of many complex incantations and hand movements and the more powerful the spell the more complex and lengthy the incantations are, you might have some idea as to why memorizing 100 different complex spells and being able to recall all of them instantly could be...difficult. It is generally easier to remember something you memorized recently. That's sufficient for me. You could also imagine that something about magic makes it especially difficult to memorize. For instance perhaps the incantations and hand movements have to absolutely perfect. Perhaps even the slightest variation will make the spell fizzle. Anything but a fresh memorization may not be sufficient to recall things so perfectly. Not that any of this really matters. For me the bottom line is how enjoyable a magic system is in practice. My favorite combat systems are BG2 and ToEE. One was 2nd Ed. D&D and the other was 3rd, but both used Vancian magic. I couldn't play Dragon Age for more than one hour before uninstalling the game. The combat was even worse than WoW. That system was not Vancian. It was mostly cooldown based. Hence my preference. The fact that Vancian may be a bit more difficult to explain with a narrative is less important to me than the fact that it is a hugely enjoyable system to actually play.

http://www.formsprin...733585262007490 Josh on cooldowns: So...Dragon Age combat then. Well that's it. I was trying to decide between the $140 and $250 tiers. Now I won't be contributing at all. An old school game with cooldowns. Nice. Unless MCA or Tim Cain can convince Sawyer of the wrongness of them. I'll wait to see if cooldowns are officially ruled out until the end of the kickstarter, but this game is dead to me now. Enjoy your Biowarian twitch-based popamole kiddies. I'll go back to replaying BG2 and anticipating Wasteland 2.

It would be nice if more people would give actual examples of a good implementation of the spell system they are advocating. What's missing from many arguments is "This is the sort of thing I am talking about". Or if their favored system has never been implemented well then at least admit that it has never been done before. At least in a way that they approve of. It would also be nice to see people giving examples of games that demonstrate their point about how bad the system they dislike is. My examples would be: Vancian = BG2; Mana = Arx Fatalis; Cooldowns = Dragon Age;

Do you have a link for that? I don't recall reading that at all.

So it appears that a true Vancian system is not currently favored by Mr. Sawyer. Most of my favorite cRPGs have used a Vancian system, but that does not mean other systems cannot be as good. Arx Fatalis and Ultima Underworld used a mana system combined with glyph stones. Arx Fatalis added in mouse gestures as well and I thought it had one of the most enjoyable casting systems of any game I've played. I liked that active participation aspect of mouse gestures and how they were traced in the air. I wanted to include a fatigue system that some people have described here, but didn't consider myself sufficiently familiar with it. From what I have heard it sounds good. A nice variation on a mana system. 1) Vancian. A spells per level per day memorization system. Advantages: Well understood mechanic with much history. Obsidian has used it before and is familar with balancing it. Many of the greatest cRPGs have used it. More examples of succesful implementation than any other system. Complex enough to require real strategy and uses multiple mechanics: a quantity limit of spells per level per day and a timer as well as a location requirement. It is necessary to find a sufficiently secluded spot to avoid being randomly woken up by monster attacks. It encourages an adventuring party to sleep at least once a day which is more realistic than the alternative. Disadvantages: It's not possible to have a 100% optimal spell selection for every battle without either some kind of scouting system or reloading after being defeated due to your mage's lack of preparation. Finding a secluded spot to rest can be tedious, sometimes requiring you to exit an entire dungeon to do so. In situations where resting is not possible mages become useless or nearly so. If finding a safe spot to rest is easy and you know what foes you will be facing there is not much of a difference between this system and an unlimited one for the length of a single battle. This might be considered an advantage by some. Some argue that this method lacks a convincing narrative explanation. 2) Mana. Basically a points system. Each spell is assigned a certain number of points and withdraws those points from a 'pool' of them which regenerates over time, often the same amount of time to fully regen as the Vancian system--8 hours or more. The pool typically gets larger as the character levels up allowing a greater number and more powerful spells to be cast per battle or day. Potions (or refill stations) are sometimes available to instantly refill the pool by a fixed amount. Advantages: Is arguably a finer grained system than the Vancian one so that a mage's power can be adjusted more precisely. Has a long history of use and is well understood. Some argue that the system is easier to explain than the Vancian one--that it makes more narrative sense. Its greater simplicity compared to Vancian may make it slightly easier to code and debug when problems arise. Disadvantages: Obsidian has less experience with this system. I don't think they have ever used it in a fantasy setting. A pure Mana system is a simpler (solely time base) system and may require less strategy than Vancian to use optimally. This lack of complexity is somewhat mitigated by systems which use additional mechanics such as glyph stones. 3) Cooldowns. An in-between action delay system. What makes it different from other timer mechanics is that the delay occurs between individual actions instead of groups of actions. The delays are also usually short, typically occuring within a battle and measured in seconds or minutes instead of hours. Usually used in real time game systems. In a RTwP system would more likely be measured in rounds instead instead of seconds/minutes. This mechanic was introduced to the PC world by MMORPGs which wanted to 100% perfectly balance every class so that there would be no advantage of one over another in PvP combat. It allows combat efficacy to be measured in Damage Per Second for easy comparisons in the MMOG PvP setting. Advantages: The simplest of all systems. Probably somewhat easier to code and debug than most other systems. Although a relatively new game mechanic, it is well understood by developers that use it. Allows DPS measurements to precisely measure the potential power of each class. Some find it to be the most narratively sensible mechanic, perhaps conceptualized as the time it takes to cast a spell or perform a ritual. The most common system used in the most popular MMORPGs and most popular cRPGs. Younger and casual gamers are far more familiar with this system. Can greatly reduce the power of mages or any other class for that matter. Relatively easy to combine with other systems. Disadvantages: Waiting is in real time and can be considered boring and frustrating to some. May interfere with the ability to solo a class that uses them because while you are waiting around for the cooldown to end you might be getting pummeled by your foes. Not a single great cRPG has ever used such a system. At least not for actual combat. Obsidian is probably less familiar with this mechanic than with any other. As arguably the simplest mechanic it may also be the least strategic although this can be mitigated if combined with other mechanics. Those who dislike this system for whatever reason seem to have a greater tendency to dislike it very strongly and may not play the game at all if this mechanic is present. This can be mitigated by not being such a person.

That Vtm: Bloodlines track is intensely beautiful and interesting enough to listen to on its own. Anyone know who did that?

And what is the alternative to that?

By always available do you mean being able to spam 30 fireballs in a row? Or are we still talking about using a mana bar of some kind which can be recharged by sleeping?

Fine. The cooldowns will be 24 hours. Of CPU time, not game time.

I don't recall ever playing a computer game with permadeath. Zork perhaps? I can't remember what happens when your lamp goes out and you do actually get eaten by a grue. Presumably start over from the beginning. And consoles have never really had save games I suppose. The only console games I've played were on the Atari 2600. I never actually owned one, but some of my friends did. None of those games had saves. If you died that was it. You started over from the beginning. I wonder at what point all that checkpoint save business started. it wasn't until my Atari 400 that I began to play games sophisticated enough to allow you to save the game state. I guess some people have never liked the idea of save games. I would never have become a gamer without them. Certainly no long games like RPGs. Much too repetitive and frustrating.

Whose idea was the question answer and psych test format for character creation in FONV? That was really awful.

I'd only support cooldowns if they were measured in decades or centuries. For instance: cast a fireball and then wait until 2024 or 2114 before casting your next spell.

I believe they do expect to be paid for their work. If all the artists and programmers and designers etc were willing to do this stuff for free they wouldn't need a kickstarter. The project might also take 10 years or never instead of 1.5 - 2. Putting the project on hold wouldn't solve anything. When it starts up again people are still going to want to be paid for their work. Also the fact that they've raised more money than the absolute minimum to do the project doesn't matter that much if they use all of it. It's not like they are just going to spend 1.1 million and save the rest in case it's needed. They are talking about larger worlds, more features and essentially more man-hours with greater funding levels. Maybe they'll be willing to do some bug fixes after the money runs out, but I wouldn't expect them to keep working on the game until they feel it is "perfect".

Are you going to pay their salaries when they have run out of money?

I don't think there is enough information about the game to even begin to speculate on such things.

I want sentient weapons that I can threaten to melt down/smash/destroy if they get on my nerves. BG2 had a sentient sword. So it has been done before.

I like climbing. Didn't Daggerfall have it? I don't think that was 3D. Maybe 2.5D though. I also thought flying was kind of cool in Ultima Underworld.

I like the idea of wounds and blood loss lowering certain stats/abilities the most. Locational damage is also nice. Why people want the stats hidden I haven't the faintest idea.

I like the idea of a slightly more defense oriented magic using character that gets his power from his god. Whether that is actually a called a cleric I don't care. I think the distinction between offensive and defensive magic is useful though. Of course if it doesn't fit with the story or setting then it's not a necessity.

Have you played Arx Fatalis? It's not so much a question of liking it. It's just a way to get free food when you are hungry and your stats are dropping. If there is no food mechanic in the game it is utterly pointless.

I voted for a larger world because I think that is one of the reasons I can still play BG2 after a decade has passed. OTOH, A compelling, suspenseful story tends to kill replay value for me once you have played once or twice. So looking for replay value may be pointless. In that case I'd want more time/effort spent on the text/story. Even without replay value a larger world / longer story is worthwhile though.