Slowtrain

10/10?

Well, suffice it to say then, that I am disappointed DX3 has gone the regen route. It immediately makes the game less appealing to me, so I can only hope that new and interesting gameplay elements will be added in to offset the loss of the health exploration. I also hope that combat is made much more difficult and less clunky and harder to avoid. One hit kills would be nice. That would at least give more of a purpose to the free health. My fear of course is that its going to end up like Invisible War, where everything that made DX awesome was simply removed or dumbed down and nothing was added to replace what was lost. TIme will tell. I'm curious, if nothing else.

The gameplay of Deus Ex, like Thief, is simply to complete your objectives. How that's done is up to individual players. You can explore as little or as much as you want, you can collect and use as few or as many resources as you want. true. But the idea though is that you collect resources through exploration and then use what have to accomplish your tasks. You don't have to find everything, but the expectaction is that you will explore enough to find what you need to progress. It is still a resource based game of exloration. That's simply not true. The best players never need lose any health. In Thief it's very easy, as the player never needs to enter combat, so that just leaves their own mistakes, like too long a fall, or environmental dangers. You don't need prior knowledge to play through without losing health, you just need to be careful. In Deus Ex there are situations where combat is forced upon you, but entering combat doesn't necessarily equal taking damage.. As I said in my response to Alan, its a valid point you are making. ANd yes, it could happen. I suppose if you reload enough, then yes, you can make it all the way through without ever needing to heal. I just think it extradorinarily unlikely that a first time player is getting through without setting off a mine that was hidden around a corner or taking fire from a turret they didn't notice. Health keeps all players alive when they take damage. I'm not claiming anything other than that. That's why its the most valuable resource: because it saves you when you need to be saved. SOme play styles will need more, some will need less, but no play style can escape the need for health. Unless, as we said, the player is very skilled and knows the game. Then it is possible. I see what you are saying and I sorta agree. I just think the the GUARANTEE of always having access to full health regardless of circumstances, which is what health regen does, lowers the thrill and tension of survival. That way seems better to me though. Having the resources to continue and survive is up to the job I do as a player. I'm not being given anything. Health regen is simply a handout that I've done nothing to earn. What I was saying was weak was the developer statement that we don't want people to have to explore for health kits, not that the developers wanted to limit exploration. People should have to explore for health kits just like everything else in the game. And again, my statement about health being the key aspect of exploration is under the assumption that every player is going to take some damage. I've played DX many many times (I know you did as well) and I am pretty sure, despite the fact I knew every facet of the game in and out, I never made it through without needing to heal. That's anecdotal to be sure, but that is the basis for my assumption.

Not really relevant, but it's funny how positive this thread is over all, compared to the BSG forums on the sci fi channel. Man, are they hammering the show over there. Have been for the last couple years, really. The concensus on the BSG forums is that Moore and the writers are making it all up as they go along and have no real idea what they are doing. The word retcon comes up more there than any place I've ever seen.

I missed this the first time and it is an interesting point, since I am maintaining that health is required to finish the game. FIrst of all, I do agree that if you have played Deus Ex a lot and know the layouts of the levels and where the guards are and where the turrets are and what not and how to get the killphrases for gunther and anna, then it is possible to play through a huge chunk of the game without taking a point of damage. I know because I've done it. I've also played through the entire first half of the game without spending skill points on anything except pistols. SO, with enough knowledge of the gameworld, you can do unusual things like that. Is it possible to get past Walton Simons and his plasma rifle without taking damage? I don't know. I can't remember if I've done that or not. I know by using the energy shield aug at full blast and running right up to him and emptying my assault rifle into his face (becasue I know exactly where he is going to be and what he is going to try to do), I can get by him with not a huge amount of damage. But no damage at all? DOn't know. I think one time I tried to just run by him without fighting him at all. Did it work? Again, can't remember. Either way though, I would argue that such a playthrough is a special case. For the average gamer playing through the game for their first time, it is extremely unlikely that even if they went a total non-combatant route that they would be lucky enough to miss all the turrets, bots, snipers and what not. In other words, regardless of whether they choose to hack computers or zap people with the cattle prod or tranq them with the crossbow, they are still going to take some damage. Not as much as the character who uses the rocket launcher to open doors, but they are still going to need health. DEus Ex is a game about balancing all your resources to survive. It IS actually a lot like System Shock 2 in that way. Deus Ex is not just a puzzle or adventure game where the goal is to solve the puzzle to advance. If it were, then I would agree about health being a non-issue. Rather Deus Ex is a game where you need to solve puzzles and advance under the constant threat of character death. It is not about solving puzzles in a a vacuum. Doing all your proper exploration for health is a critical part of being able to deal with situations where things go wrong and suddenly you need health to survive. It keeps the tension up. Regenerating health in Deus Ex would do the same thing that those free res chambers in Bioshock did: remove a whole bunch of tension and excitement since full health (or non death in Bioshock's case) is suddenly always guaranteed. ANyway, it is just my opinion that Deus Ex wouldn't have been nearly as fun or exciting with free health. You're free to disagree, and of course, you've already won since the devs agree with you and Deus Ex 3 willl have free health regardless of what I think. All I can do is chew on my old bones and mutter under my breath.

FIne. I'm not going to argue the point. If you think the question was stupid and want to express your thought in that manner, it's OK with me. Just remember I wasn't the one who started throwing the word stupid around.

You pick it up; you put it in your inventory; you click on it to use it; you can spend skill points to make it go further. Just like multitools. Its a resource. The most important one. The one every character needs. Some need less; some need more; but they all need it. You can't finish the game without it.

EXACTLY! Which is why it was stupid for you to ask what the difference was between the two.. Please can the "stupid" references, alan. I haven't called anybody stupid or referenced their opinions as being such, so there is no need for you to do so. Both health and multitools are resources (along with others) vital to completing the game. The gameplay of Deus Ex is to go forth and collect those resources to aide you in your journey. The difference is health is more basic because you can finish the games with 0 multitools or 0 lockpicks or 0 rockets; you can't finish it with 0 health.

If you run out of health, the game ends. If you run out of multitools, it doesn't. Giving players free health for just standing around is bad for the gameplay. Giving people free multitools for just standing around would be bad, too, but not AS bad.

My point is that nothing should be done to lessen the importance of exploration in a game life Deus Ex. Don't remove anything. Heck, add more stuff. Don't reduce the game. Invisible War tried that, and failed. But if you have to not remove ONE thing, that one thing that should not be removed is health pickups. Because health is so basic to the gameplay. And the gameplay of Deux Ex is exploration and resource gathering and survival. Giving it away for free hurts that gameplay. ARe the other reasons to explore? Sure. But why take away the most basic one? Its this damn streamlining, is what it is. This idea that continually reducing a game makes it more accessible and sells more copies. And maybe it does. At least if that is the motivation, I understand it.

I don't know how I can be any clearer, finding health is the key aspect of a game like Deus Ex, which is about exploring and staying alive. If your character runs out of health nothing else matters. Yeah, the developers are going to do what they are going to do, but it doesn't make the rationalization of why they are doing it any less weak. You don't take away reasons to explore in an exploration game. Its ridiculous.

Except in the real world, I don't have to look at my back to see if I got my legs blown off. In the real world, somehow, my body just knows.... Yes, it seems a bit illogical to hide your injuries. Maybe in a few years you'll have to rotate the camera around and find the bullet holes to make sure that you are ok. WHen you're playing a computer/video game you are interacting with a world in a manner that limits your sensory input. Basically, you can only use 2 of your senses, vision and hearing. Forcefeedback can give you some semblance of feel, but not really. Therefore, in order to represent things that you cannot see or or hear, the game has to present some sort of representational meter or gauge. WHen I am playing a game, I can't tell if I've been shot because I can't feel my body, because of course, I don't have a body to tell me what is going on with it. The health meter is a visual representation of the state of my body. It is a neccessary artifice because of the current limitations of our interactions with virtual world. Although a health meter may seem "artificial", in fact when we play, it quickly becomes normalized, just another part of the world. Removing the health meter, so it becomes difficult to know the condition of our virtual bodies, or making it come and go, prevents us from getting information that we need when we need it, and thus in fact draws MORE attention to itself as an artice. It amazes me that game developers don't understand these things.

Except in the real world, I don't have to look at my back to see if I got my legs blown off. In the real world, somehow, my body just knows....

Combat can play a minor role in DX, that's a decision left up to the player, and in this regard Hitman is the same. In other words, you're still wrong, "finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration. Very true. If you choose to avoid combat then you will not need as much extra health. How does that have anything to do with not putting out health packs as part of the exploration process. In Deus Ex your play style can miminize the need for one reosurce and maximize a need for another. Its all part of the gameplay. SImply removing one key aspect is silly.

Explain to me the difference between exploring for mutitools vs healthpacks.

Med kits were somewhat plentiful in Deus Ex, but I always ran low at some point or another. I always either had to increase my mde skill or take the regen mod or I would run out. It was sweet that way.

This is simply wrong. "Finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration. I already mentioned Thief, which you yourself said earlier has a better quality level of exploration than DX, and finding health plays a very minor part. FInding health plays a minor role in Thief, because combat plays a minor role in thief. If you play the game well, you should never lose a point of health. That being said, finding health potions in Thief was an AWESOME reward. I was always totally excited when I found some. Because it gave me room for making the inevtiable mistakes I knew I would eventually make and get a hammer to my skull.

Making staying alive a key reason for exploration in a game where people are shooting at you with plasma rifles is doing something wrong? I don't understand what you mean. How can it not be a key, even THE key, aspect of exploration.

Yes, but only at the expense of finite resources. Trade bio energy for health, but risk not having it for other things. That's an all together different argument. We

I agree completely. Far Cry 2 did the same. The HUD was invisible most of the time, so you never know how much health you had. I had to rpess the reload key which would bring up the hud. It was far more immersion breaking than simply having a health meter on screen at all times. In a game you don't have a real body to kbnow how much you've been injured; the health meter IS the representation of your real body.

They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive. There's no reason to do that in an exploration game.

Yes, but only at the expense of finite resources. Trade bio energy for health, but risk not having it for other things.

I'm not anti-health regen in any militant way. I just question the removal of reasons to explore, especially in a game like Deus Ex, which is an exploration based-game. In a straight shooter, where exploration isn't so important it is a more valid reason. In a game like Deus Ex, it really isn't.

I don't understand the need to differentiate exploring for health vs exploring for other things. You explore to find health, ammo, loot, all to help you survive. Its all part of the fun. If you find more health, you can play differently then if you find less. Just giving a player all the free health they want isn't as interesting.

That's true. But even worse, imo, is that there is an infinite supply of everything in the vending machines. Why even bother scattering stuff around a level when the player can go to a vending machine and buy whatever they want without limit? System Shock 2 had the same basic system, but the nanites you had were a precious resource that could not be wasted. The whatever-you-call-it in Bioshock (the Bioshock version of nanites) were easy to find and not the least bit precious. Especially since rezzing was free in Bioshock but cost nanites in SS2.