Renevent

Yea, and Fallout never had any mods / total conversions etc. come out... Oh wait they did have those and people are still making them. I didn't see anyone claim otherwise...the point is DS has tons of fans and tons of mods/maps/conversions/ect were made for it and the support has lasted a very long time. The games also have high scores from reviewers as well as high player aggregate scores. These are facts.

No, I expanded my point. Also, more content is only part of the reason. DS3 could have 4X the amount of items and still not have a lot of re-playability. It's not just the quantity, it's how in-depth the systems are and how they interact with other aspects of the game. Regarding D2 only having 1/3rd builds being viable...well first of all that's a made up statistic. Second of all even if only "1/3" builds are viable there's still a **** load more options than DS3 that being the case. People keep mentioning skill spamming as an argument against the older games too, and really it's the same exact thing in DS3. I spammed the same skills over and over against the same group of enemies over and over with little variation sans boss fights. DS3's combat while fun and fast pace suffers from the same kind tactics. Doesn't really bother me much though...just saying. I don't believe the foundation is as strong as you say...at least not from a "unlimited dungeon" perspective. The item system would need a thorough improvement (not just adding more items), level system would need improvement, higher level cap, and a bunch of other pretty hefty improvements. This game will probably have story/quest focused DLC. Anyways I do like the game (read my review thread) but let's call a spade a spade. This isn't a dungeon crawler, this is a console style story focused action/adventure rpg.

How can any sane person actually believe the DS games are among "the worst games ever"? There's opinion, and then there's just idiocy. Dark Alliance was cool though, fun game.

"Dungeon Siege 3 has more varied looking armor than Dragon Age" That's not exactly saying much...

I have another nitpick...what was with the intro dialog? Jeyne Kassynder Jeyne Kassynder! Jeyne Kassynder! Jeyne Kassynder!! Jeyne Kassynder!!!

Even if that is true I only died once (and it was right outside the save spot) I doubt I spent 50% of my game time in a menu. At most it's another hour or two.

Who knows what could account for the extra time...maybe steam is inaccurate. Maybe you have left the program running at the menu screen. There's more than one explanation. Either way, I don't even have the steam version I have the 360 version.

I think 10 hours is more accurate than 15. I know basically how long I played each day and there's no way it was 15 hours...at most it was 12 hours and even then I don't think that's accurate. Honestly I see no reason to believe the timer is off anyways...

Oh, I'm notoriously slow when it comes to going thru any game the 1st time, sometimes even the 2nd time. It's just my nature. I don't mean to imply that the game can't be completed in 10-15 hrs or whatever, if you just go from point A to point B as the plot/quests dictate. It most certainly can. I spend a fair bit of time testing things out when I level up, or get a new item I'm curious about, so I'll stay in one area and beat up on respawning monsters to check numbers and various gear set-ups before I continue following the plot. A lot of time spent in the gear menus, or the skill menus, thinking about those percentages etc. and what path I want to take with those. That sort of thing. Well I do tend to play around with gear and think pretty hard about builds (although I did loose slight interest in that later in the game)...so it's not like I just ran from a to b. With that said I was genuinely curious and just wanted to make sure I didn't miss some huge chunk of gameplay somewhere hidden in the game

25 hours? What exactly did you do to extend the game so much? I'm pretty sure I did everything that was available. The ONLY quest I know I didn't finish was the one of the side quests in the mines (clear all monsters). Wasn't because I didn't want to do it though, I guess I stepped past a "point of no return" unwillingly and the main story progressed, the way back was closed, and the quest auto-failed. I didn't want to reload a saved game though and I did explore the entire area anyways. Even if there was a few quests I missed, I can't possibly see another 10-15 hours content there.

Well I have the game on the 360 and I see no reason to believe it's lying to me lol.

Bakercompany does have a point though. In a combat system like this that isn't going to become party based what other stats do you want? All of the stats that Bakercompany brought up are very useful and go a fair way towards diversifying characters (i.e. attack vs will do you want stronger basic attacks or stronger skill based attacks. Will you sacrifice retribution for momentum. Is it more important to gain focus quicker with momentum or is your build more focused around getting crits with agility). Instead of strawmanning people defending the game as "Obsidian defenders" or whatever can you actually explain what additional stats you think the game needs. I agree with you on deeper character building though, it had some basic elements of it- but it could use more of this variation. I guess, at least the game doesn't suffer too much from jack of all trades syndrome- sure you can unlock all abilities but they won't be very good unless you actually build on them. Btw bakercompany you forgot Momentum, Warding and Retribution in your stat list. Go look up all the stuff available in TQ/D2/ect...there's a lot more. It's not just the quantity though, it's how the item system really integrates with the class system and opens up a really substantial amount of unique builds from it. There's other things too like every character being tied to a specific weapon...I'm sorry but DS3 has a very restrictive and shallow item system. There's just no other way to say it...it's still fun finding items and all, but it's just a little disappointing that's all.

In game, and how do you know the in game timer is way off? I played the game for three or four days and honestly 10 hours sounds about right just thinking about my approximate play time each day. Honestly I really don't think there's a whole lot of diversity between the character tbh...they are all heavy damage self healers. Looking at the skills there was a lot of redundancy between them too. If there was a little more dynamic between which party member you chose that would be cool...but there really isn't since they are all self reliant. I do think the different choices are worth at least checking out though, so there's some re-playaility there.

Well I said practically zero...anyways in comparison to other arpg's yeah the replay just isn't there for me. I could see myself playing once more through...maybe.

Ok so just finished the entire game so wanted to make a little review/feedback topic (before I begin just wanted to say I tried looking at the game on it's own merits and not bring other games in the genre into it too much) Graphics - Ranges anywhere from ok to very nice. Overall I would say the game looks solid. Occasionally there's a muddy texture, or certain areas look drab, but the skills look nice and there's definitely a nice art style going for the game. Character models were visually impressive though a big disappointment was there was only a few graphics for each character armor wise. That's kinda going back in time really...but...what is there does look good so it doesn't detract too heavily. Sound - Thought the music was really good, and overall sound effects were good too. Only complaint is there was very little in the way of environmental sound effects and other ambient or dynamic sound. Story/Dialog - I am not a fan of heavy story telling in video games, though I think what Obsidian did here was excellent. I enjoyed the story and the decisions you were presented with made sense and had interesting effects. Most video games go kinda nuts when they introduce twists and turns, but DS3's plot made sense and the motivations behind most characters was reasonable. I enjoyed most of the side quests too...they were a bit too conveniently placed along the main path but ok...it's a linear game. Many of them fit into the overarching plot too. So big thumbs up from me here...you got a guy who usually just skips through dialog to actually read and invest in the story Gameplay - Combat was definitely the other highlight of the game. Fast, furious, and there was a nice amount of tactics one needed to deploy on the battlefield. Between dodging, blocking, getting hits in, and using skills the combat kept me interested through the entire game. I would have liked more control over my party members though, but they were capable enough (I think the game cheats here though ). Leveling mechanics were fairly standard (for a console game). By level 15-20 I really didn't care about getting a new level though...at that point your character is pretty much fleshed out and after you unlock your final skill you are just left with tiny % increases/chances to certain stats/effects. Classes do feel distinct in some ways, but in they end they are ALL damage dealing self healers. I would have liked to see a little more dependance on your AI companion...it is a party game after all. Item system is also just average....but definitely not bad and finding items was fun. There were too few item stats, anemic types (would have loved to sets), few real options and variations...overall just wasn't a very deep item system and considering it's pedigree this was a major let down for me. Also did not care for the fact each class had pre-determined weapons/armor they and they alone could use, just a very simple and yet restrictive system. Level design was VERY linear to the point where the majority of the game was basically a corridor. Towards the end it got a little better, but not much. Best dungeon in the game is hands hero's crypt but even that was pretty short. I could have lived with the fact the main game world was so linear had there been a lot more side dungeon like that too explore. There is however a nice amount of scenery and even some cool vistas...it's along the straight and narrow but at least the game give you some nice visuals. Re-playability - Practically zero. Biggest issue with the game imo...especially for a game series that I previously put a good couple hundred hours collectively into. I *might* replay the game once more with a different character and try the opposite decisions, but that's about it. Even then that's about 20 hours total...my first run through was just under 10 hours and I really tried to do every single quest. I don't think I missed anything and if I did it probably wouldn't add much. The online doesn't have persistent characters so don't have a whole lot of motivation to play it, and even if it did there's no new game+ and I can't continue my characters past the ending. It's not absolutely necessary for a game like this to have extensive MP, but if it doesn't, I really think it should have provided a little more content in the SP. Conclusions - Dungeon Siege 3 is a good game that benefits from fun combat, great narrative, and a tightly woven game experience that stays fresh throughout. It's really a different animal than the previous games though which is disappointing. It lost a lot of depth and variety in exchange for story telling and action...fine...but I really wish it could have beefed one or two areas of complaint up and not played it so safe. With all that said I did have fun...and in the end it's a game and that's all that really matters. I just REALLY hope that if Obsidian is to ever make DLC for DS3 that they at least look at these complaints and try to improve the formula further.

You know, I keep hearing that you can beat the game easily when you focus in "insert stat here". It almost makes me wonder how difficult the game would be if you played a character with muddled stats. For a warrior having absolutely zero armor is kinda...well...crazy lol. I think my point is no matter what stat you insert where, it doesn't really matter, it's more of an action game now so success doesn't have much to do with smart character building but rather quick reflexes.

It's visually very clear when your character causes or suffers from elemental or bleeding damage. What's the difference between real elemental effects and lame ones? DS3 has auras and buffs, by the way, just not on items. The right choices of equipment can alter the optimal gameplay considerably. Still, you're right that equipment isn't as crucial to a player's success as it is in the original titles or in Diablo. however, conversely, player skill and reflexes affect the chance of victory in Dungeon Siege 3 than in the first Dungeon Siege. It's a question of focus. It's not visually very clear...and I have no idea how much damage they actually do. This is all besides the point...I already pointed out a whole laundry list of stuff. Complex systems are the sums of their parts, not just a few here and there. If you honestly think DS3's item system is as complex as say Diablo 2 or Titan Quest, I don't believe there is any evidence I could present that would convince you otherwise. Not the actual loot lists, not lists of all the affixes, rune system info, nothing...you have drunk the cool-aid and made up your mind lol. And right, it does (auras), like many other games, just not on weapons, which was my point when I listed all that. By the way I beat the game with 0 (ZERO) armor on Lucas...attack and stamina are the only stats that count. I only died a single time throughout the entire game too...at the very beginning with the fish bait. Kinda caught me off guard.

"This game has 6 Primary stats, and "on hit" effects, or Chaos: Doom, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Poison, Bloodletting, Weakening, Withering, and Vampire. Not to mention other stats such as Warding, Momentum, Stagger, Retribution, as well auto calculated Sttack/Ability DPS and Crit%." That entire list is almost exclusively things that are just chance to proc a simple effect...the majority of it you have no idea if it even proc'd or not. I have never even seen fire/ice/ect proc at all. I have a 56" 1080P TV and have not noticed it once. Beyond that, these aren't really game changing things. Whereas other games items grant things like entirely new skills from other classes, charged spells, elemental effects (real elemental effects, not the lame ones DS3 has), aura's, buffs, ect, ect. These effects are tangible, they have major implications on gameplay and the way you can play and fight with it. Moreover, the way the items are balanced had much more of an effect on a characters power and the way it played, where dungeon siege III doesn't seem to have as much effect or the same amount of options. And of course the absence of sets and the other things I mentioned that are just flat out missing. There's a clear difference in the quality and scope of these games item system. I don't think DS3 has a bad item system...it's serviceable...but that's it. I couldn't with a straight face say there's really no difference between DS3's item system and something like D2 or Titan Quest though. If you've spent enough time with either you know it would be dishonest statement.

This kinda feels like a non-issue. I mean, it wouldn't hurt the game if they had a brief mention of your wealth at the game...but I really don't see how it's exclusion seriously degrades the game in anyway.

What other stats does this game need? Agility Attack Stamina Will Block Chaos effects What's missing? The stat system for this game is fine and doesn't need changing. Crafting in most games is tedious and boring, this is a personal preference and I prefer it be left out of DS3. I agree with New Game+, or some sort of repeatable game mode. As far as the class design and levels I think its also perfect for this game. They can add on that as needed to accommodate DLC and future expansions. That list just says you should probably just be playing World of Warcraft. Well if you like your porridge that's all that matter I guess. Anyways what's missing? Have you actually ever played the games you referenced earlier? I do see a pattern with Obsidian defenders though...first pretend there's no difference, and when you realize there is pretend all that other (awesome) stuff doesn't matter and DS3 doesn't need it. *edit* No, I don't need to play WoW...there's plenty of PC arpg's with robust mechanics (past, present, and upcoming).

Sacred 2 is a PC game ported to the consoles. You're missing the point. The same amount of data fits onto a disk regardless. So why would features have to be removed to accommodate consoles? Are you familiar with the porting process and its limitations? EDIT: Here let me just end this. Porting isn't what you think it is. Porting is just re-writing the code to work on another system. Most games are made for Xbox, and ported to PS3, thus the quality of the game (frame rate, graphics, sound) might take a hit. But in no way does it limit the quantity of the features in a game. It's just copying the code from one platform to another and re-writing it so it functions. Porting doesn't mean they had to dumb down features, it just doesn't make sense. The data limitations for a DVD, CD, or Blu-Ray are the same regardless of system. What can fit onto a PC DVD is the same as an Xbox DVD. Consoles simply have lower graphical potential, which would be the only area affected by porting an xbox game to PC. Understand? Thanks captain obvious What you are missing is in many cases porting is more than just the nuts and bolts. There is differences in user bases. The types of audiences different consoles/pc/ect attract. Different expectations and different ideas of what constitutes a good game in a genre. Different types of game play that works well with one established control scheme, and perhaps not the other. How many war sims are there on the consoles? None or almost none? Why? Is it technically impossible to do on a console? Of course not...is the audience there for these types of games? Probably not. Based on these many variables, when one title get's ported to another system (like say, from PC to console) there different design decisions that need to be taken into account in order to satisfy the expectations of both the consumer and the content provider. Because of this, certain changes or modifications happen. For an already established game (Torchlight, Sacred 2, ect) this usually means more nut's and bolts changes. Controls, graphics, interfaces, ect. For a game like Dungeon Siege 3, since they wer no longer doing a PC exclusive all those other considerations I spoke about probably had a more of an effect on the general design of the game, rather than just porting the nuts and bolts. There's CLEARLY design decisions in DS3 that are more in line with typical console games, and not PC specific games. The influence is clear as day. You would literally have to be blind not to see it. That doesn't make it bad, mind you.

Actually, you are missing MY point. Go back and read my first post. You are currently debating against an argument I never made.

Sacred 2 is a PC game ported to the consoles. But that wasn't really my point anyways...if you noticed the first thing I said is I wasn't sure if consoles are to blame anyways. Could be publishers wanting to reach out to non-typical (ie joe shmoe) players so they have to spice up the action and simplify the mechanics. It's not about some technical limitation, I think it's more about audience. Maybe that has something to do with consoles but I think it's more broad than that.

And how is the item system dumbed down for consoles? There are more than a few slots to equip, quite a few stats (Diablo had 4, mind you), and several quality types. WoW, the #1 MMO of all time has 4 quality types (that matter). And thats considering the massive scale of an MMO. I fail to see how the item system is dumbed down for consoles. Keep in mind several of the most popular games of this type had sockets/runes/gems and such added much later via expansion pack. So its not fair to judge DS3 for not having it on launch when the item system is fine as is. You must be out of your mind...or simply are ignorant of the differences. -no sockets/runes/enhancements -no crafting -small handful of pre-fixes/suffixes and stats -almost no secondary effects (on hit, ect) -very low level scaling -each item does not have it's own graphics...it's shared based on class (what are we back to 1999?) -no set items -very small amount of uniques This is a very weak item system compared to Diablo 2/Titan Quest/Sacred even the original Dungeon Sieges. Doesn't matter how many classes of items are in WoW, it has a HUGE robust item system complete with crafting, sets, enhancements, ect, ect. A unique item layout can fundamentally change the way a character plays in those games...not just stats...on a fundamental level. Not the case with DS3 because...well...frankly the item system isn't as deep or in depth and doesn't offer a lot of meaningful variation. If Diablo 2 had an item/class/skill system as shallow as DS3, people would NOT still be playing it to this day.