BruceVC

Hi Nepenthe, are you Finnish? The reason I ask is that during World War 2 the Finns had a hard time with the Russians and Germans so your grandfather must have had some fascinating stories Yes. And yes - but let's just say that being a frontline unit chaplain involves, to a large degree, the identification, and if possible, evacuation of the fallen (in addition to the morale role). Not the sort of stuff you want to discuss at length with your 5yo grandson... Yeah, I can imagine. His experiences were not exactly "Xmas feel good discussion material"

Morrowind is considered one of the greatest RPG of all time for many, so I interested in why you think it is a terrible game?

Hi Nepenthe, are you Finnish? The reason I ask is that during World War 2 the Finns had a hard time with the Russians and Germans so your grandfather must have had some fascinating stories

In that case (where I'm not missing content) I'd like to toggle romances off like it has been suggested. If all I'm missing out is some dialogue with no real consequence I wouldn't care. Another question around this, don't you think that the various Romance dialog options lead to a deeper kinship with your various party members? Getting to know what makes them think and act. I just can't imagine a game where my characters are just names and are there to win combat. I firmly believe that Romance/Sex options give our characters personality But I suppose you can get to know your party without the Romance option?

You funny Monte, I may not always agree with you but you do make me chuckle As I've said in my Mature Themes thread, I think romances are probably mandatory today. There's a younger generation of players that probably grew up with romances in RPGs and they expect those to be in there. Also imagine the average gaming journalist's verdict if there was no romance, zomg! I just want it to be either well done or optional but without missing any content (like, the only thing you'd miss out on would be dialogue) I see your point, okay what about in BG2 where you are courting Viconia and eventually you get attacked by Lolths followers. So the Romance thread leads to an encounter but not missing content. Would you be happy with this?

Oh, weren't those your words? So, as I understand, you couldn't prove this position anyhow now, neither you could answer question you asked yourself. Wouldn't you admit that your exaggeration and comparison altogether were a little out of the place? And logics like: "if we have X we definitely should have Y, and if we not - there shouldn't be X" - is ill by its nature? Can't you read? Where in these two posts did I say that romance shouldn't be in the game under any circumstance? I gather you didn't get my point, that is romance and a food mechanic are both not inherently necessary. Yet I like the latter (which isn't fashionable), and that's just as subjective as wanting romance. It has often been brought up by promancers that they feel romance is necessary to their immersion/ character development, that's why I used food mechanics as a way to show that this is not only true for romance. Oh, weren't those your words? So, as I understand, you couldn't prove this position anyhow now, neither you could answer question you asked yourself. Wouldn't you admit that your exaggeration and comparison altogether were a little out of the place? And logics like: "if we have X we definitely should have Y, and if we not - there shouldn't be X" - is ill by its nature? Can't you read? Where in these two posts did I say that romance shouldn't be in the game under any circumstance? I gather you didn't get my point, that is romance and a food mechanic are both not inherently necessary. Yet I like the latter (which isn't fashionable), and that's just as subjective as wanting romance. It has often been brought up by promancers that they feel romance is necessary to their immersion/ character development, that's why I used food mechanics as a way to show that this is not only true for romance. But Sacred lets be realistic, I agree that both Romance and food mechanics are not necessary but if we have to see what is important to the community I guarantee you that Romance will be considered more important. Also Romance allows you to build more of an identity with your characters, well Food is more an aspect of survival.

Being in logistics doesn't detract in anyway from the contribution someone made to there country. Besides we both know if someone had said " I was in the 101 Airborne or a Marine Sniper " you would have said something like "baby killer" or "did you enjoy killing innocents in remote villages" So its a lose lose scenario with you.

Thanks the information guys, its impressive to see how many people on these forums have served there countries in the military

What is it, then? Maybe I'm dense, but it seems like a simple issue with simple solutions available to me. Well, not everyone has the same reasons, but the most common are: 1) The existence of romances in PE means that a certain demographic of people overly obsessed with romances will be attracted to PE and to these forums, bringing their habits and expectations with them. Did you see this post at page 2 of this thread? Those posts from the BSN aren't outliers, because many topics found there are just that romance-focused. Many people don't want the Obsidian forums to resemble the BSN. 2) The existence of romances in PE leads to sacrifices in character design that many people don't want to see. I wrote a post explaining the biggest ones here, if you're interested (it's really long and not really that detailed, but hey, this topic has been going for a while). 3) Even if you minimize the sacrifices in character design, far too many times there's problems with the implementation too. Ieo voiced here the impact romances can have on companion content. Sylvanpyxie wrote some good posts here and here about her experiences with romanceable characters, and she's not even against romances anyway! There may be more, but I already gave you a bunch of stuff to read. I know that's a lot to throw at your face, but bear in mind that this is a long running topic. A lot of stuff has been said about romances already. Might as well try to be up-to-date with the discussion Hi anti-Romance people Lurky, I don't troll. I occasionally joke, there is a huge difference. But then its obvious. Trolling is craven and a waste of intellectual capacity. So please going forward remember everything I say I believe and I can justify. Thats not to say my opinion can't be changed. I debate in the world of facts and pragmatism. I leave the emotion out. What I find amazing about the anti-Romance crowd is the way you happily ignore or dispute the facts about whether Romance\Sex should be in PE and also has it worked in other games. Firstly the Poll on this thread, 56 % of people want Romance of some sort and only 9 % say no. So I am battling to understand how anyone can argue that the community doesn't want Romance\Sex in the game. And please don't say "people are using multiple alts to embellish the numbers". If it was so easy why isn't the anti-romance crowd dong the same to skew the numbers? So the first bitter pill to swallow is that " the PE community wants some sort of Romance\Sex in the game" Then all the reasons you give above why Romance\Sex is fundamentally flawed in RPG and why they won't work show people have really spent time and effort thinking about it. I respect all that. Expect for one major and glaring flaw. For many people games like NWN2 and BG2 are excellent RPG and they had Romance\Sex implementations that did not detract from the gaming experience, unless you feel these weren't good RPG? And for the record I also enjoyed the Isabella Romance\Sex in DA2. But she was smoking hot, so who wouldn't like that . Second bitter pill to swallow, " Romance\Sex has worked in several of the most cherished RPG of all time" Lurky you mustn't be the reed that stands in the path of the Romance\Sex hurricane. Rather accept that Romance\Sex will be part of PE, acquiesce to his and you'll be a much more happier person

This doesn't surprise me at all, this is the model that all dictatorships have to follow to stay in power. They generally curtail the influence of free press ensure that independent political parties are marginalized control the police and army rigidly restrict the Internet Its funny but you see these steps almost every time a country go's the authoritarian route. But Russia is still an important player in the world and doe's have influence in many area's so this is something we need to accept begrudgingly.

Nice, thanks I'll use that version when I play the game

Interesting, so are you saying you didn't play the GOG version for the second QFG but a newer version? I have to chuckle about how hard those games were. You are right, I remember spending hours just trying to get commands correct. We would always over complicate the commands. So for example, I would type in "open the strange door", instead of saying " open door" and the game would always respond with "unknown command" I didn't even know what a candelabra was back then and there was a part where you cut it down to stop the bandits

Happy Veterans Day I didn't realize you guys were veterans. If you don't mind sharing where did you serve? I think it is very important to recognize the role that people played in our various armed forces. Its something to be remembered and to be proud of in most cases. In South Africa due to the history of Apartheid many people can't or won't talk about there military service in the 1970's, 80's and 90's. Certain white people were conscripted and fought against the spread of Communism in countries like Angola, Mozambique and Namibia. They weren't racist and didn't fight for the system of Apartheid but during the Cold War there were many ideological wars fought in Africa between people that supported Western\Capitalist views and Communist views. So South Africa was a launching pad for many countries into Africa who fought against Communism. The USA and Britain were both involved surreptitiously in various conflicts throughout Africa. But nowadays this isn't spoken about in public but there are loads of books written about this era and many people and forums who do discuss it.

Those are good tips. I think I'll do the same. I am close to finishing Rome so I'll head off to Russia and Taiwan now

"Horny old grognards" generally are getting it in the r/w dude. I completely agree, which is why I don't think they feel uncomfortable seeing it in a game. My post was less directed at this thread (although still somewhat) and more at the previous one were certain people were harping on about "platonic love" and the merits of celibacy. Well said, your point resonates with me. I not embarrassed to admit that I think Chainmail bikini and characters like Viconia are attractive. Sorry if that makes me some kind of sexual deviant

Nope sorry Monte, as I have mentioned numerous times I was happy with the BG2 Romance\Sex implementation and I'll be happy with something similar in PE. So I don't expect anything unreasonable or difficult to integrate into PE. I don't mean to be dismissive because I am one of the people asking for Romance\Sex but aren't we expecting too much to ask Obsidian to represent all these aspects of Relationships? C) I am asking for something simple. A)You need to court the person and if you succeed you have sex with them. There should be straight and gay options. This is similar to all classic fantasy that I grew up reading, like Conan. B) I don't want to over-complicate it? It's all pieces of a cake and many people value Friendship faaar above Romance. A) "Need" to court them? I don't "need" to do anything. B) Maybe I do. Love isn't easy, and Romance is oft sporadic, impulsive "Heat of the moment" type of thing that's something easy that gets complicated. It is a game, but it is a difficult, snakey, devious and lustful game. You have to play your cards right, "The Game" is a great book (never finished it but read about 1/3rds before I lost it somewhere). C) I feel that you are asking for fan-service, you are asking for the pron content. You are the horny teenager when the rest of us real romantics don't want it to degenerate to the level of sweaty diaper sex, it ruins the entire thing about the romantic feeling. Romance is an art. Sorry Osvir but you are going to be very disappointed if you think that Obsidian is going to be able to implement Romance\Sex as an art. This is a fantasy RPG and we need to have realistic expectations. I could recommend some good poetry if you are looking for Romantic inspiration, but in PE the Romance\Sex should be a part of the game through dialog options and response to your actions by party members. It shouldn't be a huge part of the game but how it was done in BG2 would suit me fine

I am an original QFG fan but I feel we are just inundated with games that we feel we should fund, I guess you can't fund everything?

Nice link, good news. I admire Bioware for trying to change there image. You can see that there is obviously a directive that they need people to identify with the Lead Designers on there various games , these types of open and honest introductions go a long towards fans seeing the "human element " of Bioware and not just a name on a box or a greedy company that just wants to make money

I don't mean to be dismissive because I am one of the people asking for Romance\Sex but aren't we expecting too much to ask Obsidian to represent all these aspects of Relationships? I am asking for something simple. You need to court the person and if you succeed you have sex with them. There should be straight and gay options. This is similar to all classic fantasy that I grew up reading, like Conan. I don't want to over-complicate it?

How are both these Romance/Sex options?? Look don't take any offense but how much do you think about Sex? (obviously not Romance) Thank you SGray. Yes you are correct only one is a Romance\Sex choice. In fact I should have said 2 moral choices. But it was just an example, there could have been another Romance\Sex choice but it needs to be appropriate. I don't know what you mean by "how much do you think about Sex". Do you mean in RL or do you mean in the context of where I want my characters in the game to have Romance\Sex

I doubt it, I also noticed the lackluster financial support

You want more detailed situation? Not too hard, really, to fleshen such event in proposed mood, say: Exploring the city you accomplish some righteous quests for respectable and noble family, in fact representing the law in the city. They are always generous with rewards and quests are doing good for city, they are obvious good guys and you sympathize them. On one of the quests you cross your ways with some rogue who leaves the trail of dead bodies after himself and occasionally helps you by distracting enemy attention elsewhere. You have some clue that rogue is not "he", but "she". Later on you hear the rumor of some horrible murderer was caught and sentenced to execution. Some time later you find mansion of your respectable quest-givers burning. You manage to enter it through the basement, where you find mentioned above rogue, locked in one of cells. She is absolutely clear female (imagine Viconia as a reference) half-naked and all other fanservice and begging you for rescue. She couldn't offer anything but herself literally in reward (not as a companion, no reason for that, but bluntly as sexual favor), proving her words with some oath or magic adjuration. Key to her cell is somewhere on the first floor, so you have to find it and return before the building crumbles, instead of trying to reach family barricaded by someone on upper floors. So we have classic (or not-so one) "damsel in distress" vs some loyalty. No oaths involved from your side, just what you think is right and what you decide to do. You have to consider if you could trust her, if she knows something important about what's going on, won't you get a stab in the back anyway, could you really save those men upstairs at all, couldn't they handle themselves etc. So i could double that: moral choices and Romance\Sex options can be interchangeable. They don't have to have this dichotomous relationship. I like this example, good one. I would like to add to it. You find out the thief/dark elf female is the only person who knows about a certain cure to a rare poison that is killing one of your party members. And she is also prepared to offer herself to you sexually and as a party member. But if you rescue her the family dies and this family apart from being "good guys" is a noble family that will carry influence in the next city you need to go on your quest. So you now have 2 choices Rescue the hot Viconia lookalike. Save your one party member and get laid (but getting laid isn't the only reason you choose to rescue her) Recuse the family and gain important allies in the next city but one of your party members dies and you lose the impressive skills of Viconia and her Bikini Chainmail So in fact these are both moral choices and Romance\Sex choices

Thats going to be interesting, I know we all have fond memories of those classic games but I wonder if the gameplay is just a little too dated to really enjoy? Keep us updated. I also want to buy this series on GOG for nostalgic purposes but I'll wait for what you think.

Very early days, I have just finished Saudi Arabia and I am now in Rome

So it was not no-brainier decision? Which is definitely so, when you are familiar with her already. What i tried to tell is that same situations observed from different points of view (different experience) could lead to much more or much less obvious decisions even with same morality in mind. And personal relationships is often the thing that matters. Romances only promote this to higher extent and add more meaning to player's actions. That's why i love Witcher - everything is up to who you like and emotionally/morally attached to, you understanding why are you doing this. And that's why i don't like FO:NV as much - I don't care about anyone here, there is simply no motivation to not to settle in some remote village and shoot everyone who approaches. Pronounced with pathos: It has be done for...!! What? Revenge? - don't care anyhow. Abstract Greater Good? - sounds funny, but i don't care also. Exp? - uh, well... ok. Games without strong emotional connection feel just empty. Romances are good and reliable tool (true for majority of players, as all polls depict) to create more ties for player with a world, to make him actually care about the world around. Well written romance could be a good addition to any role-playing game. Only if they are not purpose by themselves. SGray my friend I agree completely with your post. I absolutely believe that Romance\Sex adds to the depth and realism of an RPG. No arguments here As someone else mentioned "an RPG without Romance makes the characters like emotionless Robots ", and who wants to play an impassive robot? *shudders* Sorry man. EDIT: I understand the concept but, no not interested. Your entire example is tailored to a certain audience. Why would she be dressed up in chainmail bikini? Why does she have to be hot? Why is she imprisoned by the family, is the family entirely good? How long has she been a prisoner? Would she not be given a prisoner's outfit or would the family keep her half-naked in their basement? EDIT EDIT: How long have I known the family and the prisoner before the house started burning? Is this something the prisoner is yelling at me as I'm walking by? "If you save me you can lay with me!!!!" or what? How much time did I have, up until the time of the house burning, to assess and gain a relationship with these people? Osvir I appreciate your logical rebuttal to my concept but don't you think you are over- analyzing the scenario. Remember its a fantasy RPG, not everything is going to make sense? The thing is I hope that P:E will be well-written, and for something to be well written it needs to have some sense. I also dislike that argument as it seems to be the "lazy last resort" argument. Couldn't you at least try to paint a scenario where your idea is in it's prime triumph where it makes sense? Where a burning house doesn't appear out of nowhere with a hot dark elf prisoner and a family in peril, but with some history and background to it. What's the agenda with the family? What's the agenda with the prisoner? But most importantly (like some said "I'd be at the bar and gamble all my money away") what is it to your character? It needs some sort of "entrance" to matter or be important for your character and not a "troll event" from out of the improvised blue. EDIT: Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't have brought out the "it's a fantasy RPG" card. Osvir I use to DM for many years, so trust me when I say it would be really easy for me to create a story or context for the example I mentioned. But I don't believe that would change the anti-Romance sentiment. Anyway this was Monte's example, I was just highlighting why moral choices and Romance\Sex options can be interchangeable. They don't have to have this dichotomous relationship.