BruceVC

benchmark for Gromnir is ps:t, but is not the romance story o' the protagonist that we thought were fantastic in that game. ravel's love for tno were distorted and hopeless and more genuine than any other crpg romance story we care to name. best crpg romance were ravel's love for tno. took most o' the game, were almost complete one-sided, had no sex scene, and concluded with mebbeth's wonderful post plane-hopping encounter. am not seeing how to do a decent tangential and optional side-quest romance. go through an entire romance story arc in a half dozen dialogue encounters? what a tragedy. romance ain't necessary for a good story, but if you are gonna include romance, you better make it central to the game story. game developers, understandable, wanna do multiple and optional romances in a crpg, 'cause choice is paramount. result: doom. "but let me assure you, this like any story worth telling... is all about a girl. that girl. the girl next door. mary jane watson." try and make a movie or game in which a romance with mary jane watson, gwen stacy and flash thompson is all possible 'til mid-point o' game (after which one is rushed into a predictable and puerile sex scene with said romance option) is not our notion o' good design or good romance. the problem for Gromnir regarding crpg romances is not that we hate romance. the problem is that we like romance. optional and tangential crpg romances is, by their very nature, flawed. fine. keep 'em optional so we need not endure such. you simple cannot give the requisite attention and depth to an optional and tangential side-quest romance to make it anything other than ridiculously rushed and immature. so either don't do 'em at all, or keep 'em optional so we need not suffer. nevertheless, the only way to do crpg romance any kinda justice, to have it worth exploring, is to make such romance integral and pivotal and essential. can't do half measure romance. solution: if you want decent crpg romance, the obvious way to include is to add such to games without making the game protagonist a romance protagonist. you can have a well-written romance in just 'bout any crpg just so long as the player is not part o' the romance. HA! Good Fun! Yes the whole PS:T Romance was interesting I agree but I cant imagine an RPG where Romance is the core objective? Romance is suppose to be about party interaction and as you said a component or side quets , I enjoy movies like When Harry met Sally but despite what some people maintain an RPG without a compelling narrative and places to explore and decent quests would be pointless for me I only end up Romancing one person per RPG because I imagine the reality of being in a party and actually dating that person and to be honest Romance dialogue is interesting but never inspirational ....but its a RPG, not a novel so my expectations are reasonable So then you may ask " but why do you like Romance "....its about the RP experience the same as I consider my choices when they have real consequences. I always play a " good guy " but I am interested in wealth So in Witcher 3 which I'm playing now I generally ask for money when people ask me to kill monsters But for me if I'm not part of the Romance that would be pointless?

Fair enough, I'm glad you reminded me because I was about to respond to LN and I wasn't sure how honest I should be ....and some of his comments really annoyed me @ LN I'll reiterate in the US political thread why Hilary will be the right choice for US president

Which is no doubt a large part of the reason why you believe so much of the ridiculous BS that you do. You can ask me to substantiate everything I tell you and I can produce a link...I wont expect you to sit through a 1 hour video Its unhelpful to produce a video to justify a point because now the only way I can have this debate is to watch the video....why cant you just send me a link like everyone else?

What I find embarrassing is your constant attacks on Clinton as if you know what you talking about " most corrupt president ever " I dont suppose you could name just 3-4 bullet points why she will be a embarrassment to history and no I dont want to read several pages of your normal posts ...just bullet points ?

Not to worry

A

Yes...those writers were brilliant Its weird ...I even remember some lines from that series "there are universes beyond universes and my Master is destined to rule them all " ( similar to that )

Sorry dog I dont understand this sentence "why do you talk about video game romances like someone who doesn't want a tacked on dating sim is against love " I want to have this debate with you so please clarify?

No offense Tigranes but this post sounds like something you would read on the Codex....are people on the Codex supportive of Romance generally ? You see many people who dont like Romance will use a variety of perspectives to undermine the overall appetite for Romance , I have heard them all. For example its common for people to imply things like " Romance implementations are normally juvenile and cater for kids who want to have cheap thrills " ..I'm not sure if this is meant as a veiled insult but it doesn't make any difference to Promancers like me because we dont see Romance like that What game offers your ideal Romance just so I understand your benchmark?

Yeah, when you put it like that, it sounds like common sense alright. But I'm not fully convinced that's the case. See, Bioware have been writing LGTB characters into their games for some time now. Bethesda too. And yet it's BD who have managed to stir a hornets nest, and having played all the games in question, only in the case of SoD I honestly feel that the accusations of tokenism and virtue signalling are warranted. I'm all for having female characters who are not terrible stereotypes. In the cases of Safana and Corwin, that at least seems to be the intent. However, the whole thing with the tranny cleric goes in the opposite direction because the character is there obviously to be inclusive and stuff. Not only is her dialogue atrocious (execution), the character has zero depth. You can't discuss the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity with her, or anything else, just react with "cool story, tell it again". Not even a stereotype -- more like a cardboard cutout. This fits with the writer's statements that everyone should get a chance to see themselves reflected in pop culture. Whether that reflection is accurate, fitting, respectful or elegant doesn't matter, it seems. And if you think it does, well, "too bad". If the intent is what you say it is, then great. If the intent however is to secure the moral high ground by ticking a series of checkboxes, then not so great. In their defense, they have committed to expanding the character, we'll see how that goes. No the outrage is understandable but misplaced IMO its because games like BG are like this indelible great memory that should be " incorruptible"..its like BG is suppose to be a inviolable sanctuary For many people Bioware has changed for the worst, I still like Bioware and support them, so I imagine most people had high expectations for Beamdog to resurrect the BG series So now when this type of unusual " out of BG theme" writing occurs its like a betrayal of what we remember But I really think people are being a bit overly negative ?

Because if that's all there is to the character, it's a lazy, two-dimensional stereotype, and beginning to write with the explicit goal of creating lazy, two-dimensional stereotypes is not the hallmark of an artist who takes pride in their work? I mean, you could create a character who is motivated by greed and self-interest, has gigantic boobs, and openly enjoys both her sexuality and the influence over people it gives her while being an interesting and multifaceted person on her own right, but at that point, we're past the lazy stereotypes people have problems with. I dunno, "maybe have female characters who are not terrible stereotypes" and "maybe have characters who are not straight" doesn't sound like "an attempt to piggyback issues into a popular game series" to me. It sounds more like, well, common sense. I mean, you can fault the execution, but I see nothing objectionable about the intent. I don't mean to cut in, but I found this remark very interesting. The way I see it, people rarely, if ever, fault the execution. Of anything. It's the doers intent they object to. I have a hard time comprehending anybody having problems with the intent of "let's make a diverse cast of characters who aren't lazy stereotypes". Because that's basically her intent. I agree with alum on this ....its really not a big deal to have characters from various excluded groups in games nowadays Personally I would like to see more people from the LGBT community But also Mam I like your character suggestion, she could be hot and seductive but also interesting?

Damn that sounds delicious.... What type of pickles did you use and how did you make them if you dont mind sharing We tend to pickle a lot...not so much me but my family

Thanks Gfted1 ..I didnt know that but maybe some people have used different names ?

You right...I wont give those up and the Conan And I have CLASSIC legion comics like the Darkseid story and when they fight the LSV and Karate Kid dies "The Great Darkness Saga" and the big return of the LSV to launch the 1984 Baxter series. Yeah a real good period for the Legion. Remember how hectic it was when Darkseid brainwashes those people from Daxam ( mon-el world )

Thanks for responding, I appreciate the feedback I know Romance isn't something that all people on this forum support or even think is relevant in a RPG ...we have had debates about this for ages and I am always interested in why people dont like Romance because all the reasons I have ever heard have never really convinced me ..which is fine as we all have our own RPG preferences In summary for me I always immerse myself in the RPG experience and imagine I'm the actual character or member of a party and if I was on some epic quest to save the world why wouldn't I also want Romance with someone like Isabela or FALL-from-Grace So Romance is part of the overall immersive interation when I engage with my party members

Hah, yeah same here - I remember trying to hold my own in a discussion with Metadigital - and not doing so well... or just discussing politics as a young ideological Scandinavian on an American board heh Hah, yeah same here - I remember trying to hold my own in a discussion with Metadigital - and not doing so well... or just discussing politics as a young ideological Scandinavian on an American board heh Metadigital handed my metaphorical butt to me a coupleof times too. And the guys was the WoT as interesting as it is nowadays? It was actually pretty contentious back then. Keep in mind this was directly during the aftermath of the Iraq invasion. Ender and Mkreku went round after round nonstop it felt like. Of course...time tends to distort memories.. Good point ....it must have been very ideological Leferd how long have you been here?

Ros I meant to tell you, I have been supporting the Danish economy as I have been buying lots of Danish blue cheese I like the Rosenborg and Castello...I'm seriously into my cheese. I have at least 4 different books on how to cook with different cheeses and one small cheese book that you can take into cheese shops to confirm what certain cheeses are ..its small so hopefully people dont notice it

Malc I have been meaning to ask you something, when I first joined these forums over 3 years ago you use to be very cynical all the time...well thats how I remember you. Anyway you have changed a lot for the better IMO....you dont seem cynical anymore and you often say very funny or insightful things Have you changed or did I just misunderstand you previously? Sorry if I'm putting you on the spot but you really seem different and I wanted to mention it

LSH fans don't give up their Legion comics. LLL! EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious, I read comics. But I mean, really, it should be obvious. You right...I wont give those up and the Conan And I have CLASSIC legion comics like the Darkseid story and when they fight the LSV and Karate Kid dies

So is that part of the Greek Orthodox religion when the body stays in the house ?

Vals I appreciate the fact you posted this and want me to watch it ...but remember I have explained this numerous times, I'm not going to sit through a 1 hour video. Can you summarize it ?

You dont think if there was real evidence against Hilary the FBI would have charged her by now? You seem to foolishly believe the FBI has any integrity. Yes I trust the FBI, thats why I supported Apple assisting them with the backdoor access to there devices Ah yes, supporting pure evil you are there. Realize it though you may not. Well considering the fact I dont really believe in the word " evil " that doens't bother me Take a group like ISIS, I dont describe them as evil but barbaric, medieval , vile , brutal and reprehensible are all preferred words

Using common sense about your appearance is not judging

Maybe you were joking, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of games either have nothing to do with SJW issues or are pretty clearly not in line with the 'SJW agenda' Simply put, there is no evidence that people like Sarkeesian are actually affecting the direction of the gaming industry. It's all about the money, and games like The Witcher and The Division are setting the tone with huge profits. Yes I was joking and teasing Bruce a little bit :-P I still hope, that humanity has still enough intelligence to not change everything to Gattaca-style sterile world where any difference from the only "socially accepted" norm is punished ;-) Also I'm not sure why anyone thinks I'm a " SJW " ? I'll be honest those words have no positive or clear meaning..its meant as an insult and also it means different things to different people But for me after GG I stopped judging or criticizing any PC game....but I will defend the right of a company like Beamdog to make an inclusive game. Thats not the same as your typical Sarkeesian type irritating " lets attack PC games because its easier than addressing RL sexism " So for me I'm involved in several RL SJ campaigns in South Africa ..these are real and matter I refuse to get pulled into this adsurd "lets attack white, male gamers because they...........like to play games "

Thats fascinating, tek where do you live?