BruceVC

There should be nothing unusual about people getting genuinely upset about the UK leaving the EU. We really should not mock people who really may cry as this is just a normal emotion....remember this is not like in Oz where you guys send immigrants to jungle hellhole islands....and the only time you have to think about them again is where one of the immigrants sets himself on fire in protest Many people feel Oz is in contravention of human rights laws http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-22/human-rights-watch-scathing-on-australia27s-treatment-of-asylu/5212038 http://www.ibtimes.com/refugee-children-australian-detention-centers-subjected-sexual-abuse-denied-rights-1813728 But I do think the way these people in the UK responded was unnecessary. Why would they think they had to apologize to Italians because of the BREXIT outcome? Why are people ostensibly thinking people like Boris Johnson when he motivating leaving the EU said he plans to export any non-British people from the UK So even though I understand real grief they are unintentionally making the situation worse by suggesting the BREXIT supporters are racists ...this part below summarizes my concern Our social media feeds were full of similar anger and grief. Tearful emojis littered posts about people feeling physically ill and shocked by the result. Friends outside of Europe commiserated and asked “WTF Britain?”. Others in the European Union wondered if their futures were uncertain too. So what this tells me is these social media feeds and people are happy to admit there ignorance because for weeks the BREXIT supporters have explained and evangelized there views, it was no secret and the justification easily accessible. So anyone who really cared and wanted to understand this could just have researched this information but they refuse to accept responsibility for there own laziness And this last paragraph must be the most irritating, so old people my age cant possibly be looking at this BREXIT exit strategically ...no we must be racist, sexist and homophobic We worry that those same populists who were so key to this revolt will use their new found influence and justification to start targeting other freedoms the EU has been integral to achieving: LGBTI and women’s rights in particular.

If it's members don't bail out now and make it fall appart, there are about half-a-dozen if not more ways it steers towards collapse. With it's inability to decide anything about the refugees it turned to Turkey, which does hold the EU ransom now for more money to do what they want. Also apparently they've said they would talk about EU-membership, something they would never give to Turkey due to human right violations. Even making that offer is reason for concern. Then there's the war they started in Ukraine and the tensions it keeps poking with Russia. There's the economic instability (mostly hearing about Greece) where more and more money from it's member gets pumped into the EU itself to save it from the Euro falling economically appart. The amount keeps rising and rising to staggering amounts, and it doesn't help at all, no way it's going to hold out without fully draining economies. Schengen has pretty much collapsed due to inability to decide anything and countries had to take their own steps. All the big decisions? EU is useless and countries need to do it themselves anyway. Why pump billions into it if the best they can come up with is "seek it out yourself"?Their entire purpose for existance; they aren't doing. Yet it keeps needing more and more funds to not do it. While other economies long been past the economic crisis Europe still dragged on. Other economies bloomed again with devaluating their currency, the EU can't. Several economies survived by pumping money in, we HAD to lower our expenses, dragging on the economic dispair further. National budgets got really tight due to all the extra money that had to go to Brussel to "save the Eurozone", but still had to keep under that 3% which meant making local economies worse again. So no, I have no idea where you got "world's strongest economy" from, but those past 10+ years or so we've seriously hanged onto a thread of life, thanks to the EU. The actual ideals of the EU... that got wrecked by mismanagement, too rapid expansion (just allowing a lot of unqualified countries in cause they wanted to be big soon), less bureaucratic nonsense. It should be an agreement between nations for free trade, open borders and unity. Not Brussel nitpicking every single little thing, being dictatorish over everyone, sucking giant sums of money (for WHAT?) and in the end when things have to be decided like on economic reasons or the refugee issue is wholesome incapable and out-sources it again (for more money, yay!). Back to the EEG seems a good way, just economic co-operation, not this political one. There is no real "instability"... it's speculators going bonkers over something unexpected happening. That pretty much always happens, so it's not really too much of a concern. Specualators wanted them to stay, expected them and that hope raised the stocks, then when they got a cold shower it dropped again, but it's pretty much an equal balance in the end, so all the fearmongering is people having no idea how financial markets work taking it as "proof" (as always happens). The stocks already started rising steadily over friday, and they will do monday. We'll see a more accurate presentation mid next-week, then I can give you a proper report of the "damage" it has done, as this is just as much fearmongering as during the campaign was done (still waiting for World War III here). All the doomscenario's all assume a break would mean Brittain would have no trade at all, but that's fairly out-of-the-world thinking, rationality of course says the EU trading partners Brittain has will not stop trading since it would seriously harm themselves. The EU is cutting their profits enough as is with the stupid trade ban with Russia without going onto another trade ban, especially seeing how fragile and weak the Euro-economy is. If they would, it would just show how class-act the EU really is, and mean their own termination too. Wasn't going to happen.So yeah, I seriously doubt much will change for Brittain at all, as only speculative economies (which are pretty prone to heavy fluctuations) will change much, and they will veer back. Them having their own currency helps too of course. No it will be far more interesting and unpredictable to see what happens if the EU falls and the Euro dies to all of us here. There are plenty of doom-scenario's too of course (have to threatnen people to stay in the EU since, well, that's pretty much the best argument they got) most of them being around having a very weak currency and being a trading country. Funny thing being, a majorly export based trading country like the Netherlands will very much benefit from such a weaker currency. And if the biggest scare-tactics resolve around a threat of something happening that's actually beneficial to us? Yeah, not scared, let the EU fall. We'll survive, we'll be stronger. I don't want us to be like a communistic USSR country by the time the Iron Curtain fell, let's stay way ahead of that time. I appreciate your detailed response, these discussions are important as we get to exchange ideas and I really want to understand these points. The reality of any forum is people get involved in debates like not because they care about the UK or the EU but because they get entertained by spreading or increasing negativity I dont take it personally but this not some silly GG discussion or a hypothetical debate about " was Turkey justified in shooting the Russian plane down " .....this is in RL and is relevant and concerning to many EU forum members and to people like myself So I would hope and assume our forum members would be cognizant of this reality and not make posts that have no purpose but to exacerbate the situation...and yes some people do this on this forum But I need time to respond as you made several relevant points, I will update this later

Article 50 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. 4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. 5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49. As UK may not give their notification until October and withdrawal agreement negotiations may take years, which means that it is quite possible that we have new European parliament before UK's agreements with EU end and they actually leave the union. But at least we should have couple fun years ahead of us. Hi Elerond How you feeling about Brexit....are you negative....unsure ? Your view on this matter is important to me because of all the interesting posts you make and effort you put in to your comments

I have no fear that Europe will be torn asunder if the EU falls. Greece, maybe, but they will become the better of it rather than being put on death's thread and not allowed to die by the EU for so long. I have little believe that the EU has any chance of saving, much like Greece, it just lingers on, un-death, barely above the brink of failing, but do so by pumping more and more money in it. It doesn't work, it just makes the corpse a more expensive corpse, and the fall the harder when it does spit it's last breath. Rather get out before it gets cataclysmic funds. Starting over will give a much better chance than trying to actually make something worthwhile of this horrid beast. We found the EEG before, we can do so again. And this time hopefully not get megolamaniac over addign as many countries in that are incompatible, starting wars if need be. Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate. Rather than having to deal with several plates of **** before you can start the main course, the unlikely case you get that far. Come on, you cant be serious with this post? Is this your really your view... Okay lets say this is your honest opinion...lets break things down and hopefully we can dismiss most of what you are saying. Please understand this is not personal but finally I am seeing real concern about the EU from members, this is something I always thought was strangely lacking from the EU members so now for me its important we provide accurate views to people who do care and this post of yours really doesn't make sense little believe that the EU has any chance of saving : This is a huge statement, you must have a view of the next few things that will happen that will cause the EU to fail,can you share them ? . It doesn't work: What are your expectations for the EU that you say this ? The EU has always been about the free market and it is the worlds strongest economy. So hasn't it delivered on? Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate : Why ? What you want from a new EU...please mention real points I'm sorry to seem to put you on the spot but I assume with the real instability of Brexit you have done research and can justify your view?

Guys for people on this forum who care about the EU this video is a perfect example of the type of anti-EU sentiment that exists and feeds on the real concerns of people Its really interesting to watch because of how it uses this spurious logic to try to undermine the EU yet he does make points that some people will believe I am keen if anyone believes anything in the video do you mind mentioning the point and what minute its on the video as I can honestly and reasonably dispute everything he says but I need examples

Volo please try show empathy towards what the UK and EU are going through especially since you claim to about the threat of Islamic extremism A persons opinion on matters like refugees and UK leaving the EU can be shaped and influenced by there real exposure to it So you are very fortunate, not only do you live in one of the worlds most stable, progressive countries you are also aligned to the West so you understand and support Western values Now your PM who you think is weak and a SJW Nazi is probably the best person to run Canada at the moment. I like him and what he stands for. He comes across as sincere but he is a real idealist ....he believes in certain things that would be dispelled if he lived in Europe and had to deal with the reality of radical Islam But so what, even if he is naive he really seems to believe it and his progressive attitude seems to work for Canada But anyway in closing you live in North Bay, Ontario. North Bay? As you know most people dont know or particularly about where you live, I had a view of North Bay as this rural, mountainous village where people still want Independence from Canada (isn't that what Ontario wants ) but lets say you gave them independence they wouldn't have a clue what to do next But the good news is if people dont care about North Bay than the chance of you being attack by extremists is almost impossible But I'm sure you can try to understand the reality of the EU and the threat it faces?

Dark I'm going to respond to this in detail Question : Do you care if you EU survives or fails and please be honest and detailed if possible

Thanks. I'd done that before. However it opened only to the $25k list. I did not notice the first time that one had to scroll left. Any idea what the asterisks represent? I can't seem to find where that's defined. First time I'd heard Assad called that. Though it's fitting. Israel would have offed him many years ago if they could have, and no doubt they've never stopped actively trying. Truly though, Assad falling would be very very bad for world politik given who wants him gone and why. Long live that guy indeed. And the Mossad can't get to their ultimate home in the deepest depths of hell fast enough. F them forever. From my experience with Excel and business, the asterisks are usually the result of a lazy import, meaning they used those as line breaks. But sometimes they botched up the macros and they remain here and there since the coder put exactly the amount of work into it as they paid him to. That doesn't exclude the possibility that they are references to an outside document though, so you have to take it as you will. As for Assad, i think i spotted that meme on Twitter and it simply stuck. Meshugger, the view that Vals and Oby have that Assad is a survivor and should be respected because he is important in some ME circles do you share that sentiment?

https://www.zomato.com/johannesburg/erwins-parkmore/menu#tabtop We went to this really good Swiss restaurant today for lunch and afternoon drinks, the food was excellent ...I had an excellent cheese fondue and the menu was very traditionally Austrian and Swiss and the owners are Swiss I'll be honest the decor was austere and vibe very formal and the various people in the restaurant all seemed very serious ...but we started drinking Tequilas almost immediately and our general vibe got more boisterous as we normally do ...it was a great day And when we left the manager told us next time we come we will get our own table in the corner as we made lots of noise ....I have been told that my whole life by some people so it just made me laugh as we are nosy but its not unreasonable

I cant be frank about that statement because its definitely not the only reason for Brexit, its only part of the controlling borders and access to the UK Also I'm not sure if you aware of it but that statement can also be unintentionally insulting to the millions of people who live in the UK who supported BREXIT. That comment takes the numerous reasons for leaving the EU and debases it to a simple " British people wanted to leave the EU because they are racists and dont like Muslims" I have heard that sentiment numerous times over the last 48 hours on various South Africans radio shows but the average South African due to 50 years of Apartheid has very little knowledge of social or political realities outside SA....and I am not being condescending the lack of insight is from our past But you seem to be a clever person who understands how to find information , I'm not sure why you haven't spent 3-5 minutes doing a bit of research. Read this link, I have summarized the relevant part to your question What were their reasons for wanting the UK to leave? They said Britain was being held back by the EU, which they said imposed too many rules on business and charged billions of pounds a year in membership fees for little in return. They also wanted Britain to take back full control of its borders and reduce the number of people coming here to live and/or work. One of the main principles of EU membership is "free movement", which means you don't need to get a visa to go and live in another EU country. The Leave campaign also objected to the idea of "ever closer union" and what they see as moves towards the creation of a "United States of Europe". http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 Finally I am well aware of the various problems that exist within the Muslim world Its not just radical Islam but most Muslim countries need to become more progressive and be more inclusive with there citizens around economic opportunities The reality is the only reason we are seeing the majority of refugees is that they started coming from the Syrian civil war And the Syrian war was caused by the Arab Spring which was basically a movement where the Muslim citizens of various countries wanted more rights and a greater say in the economy So ironically the West and places like the UK has inherited the responsibility of having to integrate millions of people from conflicts that the West is not responsible for (unless you a conspiracy theorist who thinks the West caused the Arab Spring ) And whats worst for me is how many countries in the Middle East like the Sunni states have refused to house any immigrants ....and these are Muslim countries. Yet people like you and others make these cavalier comments like " the UK is racist and doesnt want to accept refugees " But fellow Muslim countries dont want to take responsibility.....you see the inconsistency But end of the day you cannot generalize about the whole Muslim community and say things like " Muslims are warmongers and want to conquer the West , its unhelpful and unfair as the majority of Muslims want the same thing everyone else wants ....peace and stability to raise there families "

I was hoping for this Why would you be hoping for this, Texas is never going to secede from the USA....surly people arent serious about this? You're my friend, so I'm holding this intervention out of love. surly adj 1. Sullenly ill-humored; gruff Surly people are always serious. Ask me how I feel about religion or Barti how he feels about mayonnaise, you will get a surly response. Thanks Mani, I have no issue with people correcting me who mean well and you always mean well but I want to share something interesting about these mistakes I make You may think this is just excuse but I am well aware my grammar is shocking, I still dont know the difference between their and there and at times I can see some overall structures problems in my posts Its not that I dont try to make posts grammatically correct its just that its not a big deal if they not For me only one thing matters when someone makes a post on a forum like this, can I understand them? If you think about it why would anything else matter, so spelling and grammar why is that a factor?

I was hoping for this Why would you be hoping for this, Texas is never going to secede from the USA....surly people arent serious about this?

That something is linked, does not mean it could not be separated, if people in charge decide, that it's right thing to do. For me EU and UK was also linked, and now we see them going separate ways *shrugs* But the EU and the UK are 2 separate entities and politically you can move the two apart..you cant separate a capital city from a country like the UK. The 2 examples are different I dont care what any professor says, there is no legal historical precedent that even remotely is similar to the suggestion that London will become its own independent city state ....seriously the idea is not possible

more than 41,000 votes already... https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu That is never going to happen and any suggestion to do so is idiotic Please elaborate on this London is the capital of the UK It would be like suggesting that Paris is going to become independent to France London and the UK are inextricably linked..how would you ever separate the 2 is not politically or legally possibly

No its not, ignore what people on Twitter say There are many different negative views on this development which ones are you referring to? I'm not properly educated on the matter. I was referring to a lot of reactionary tripe on social media denouncing the patriarchy and such. Haven't seen many examples of how this will be bad for the UK, which is why I ask. You right about all the tripe on social media but just so I understand when you say patriarchy what do you mean in context to the BREXIT development ?

No its not, ignore what people on Twitter say There are many different negative views on this development which ones are you referring to?

Well that filled the BS quota for today I wish Trump would keep quiet and stop pretending his political agenda is the same as why the UK left the EU You see to Trump the entire world needs someone like him to " fix things " .....the arrogance of the man never ceases to surprise me

Yeah this was a good one, I need to send this to my family in the UK who are deeply melancholic with current events

more than 41,000 votes already... https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu That is never going to happen and any suggestion to do so is idiotic

Well as long as you're not a refugee. Or brown. Or east european part-time worker, which took your job, which you would never even consider to apply for it, in the first place There is definitely some unnecessary and unsubstantiated criticism throughout the EU from some sectors of the population towards East Europeans and how " they taking jobs " I wouldn't take it seriously...I know thats probably harder to do than it may appear as it must get frustrating at times

Also just to add to this, Mark Carney the Governor of the Bank of England had the following reasonable and prudent words to say " The Bank of England said it was "monitoring developments closely" and pledged to "take all necessary steps to meet its responsibilities for monetary and financial stability". Governor Mark Carney said market and economic volatility was to be expected as the UK negotiates new relationships with Europe and the rest of the world but that it was "well prepared for this" after extensive contingency planning with the Treasury. He said the Bank was ready to provide more than £250bn of additional funds to keep markets functioning and would not hesitate to take further measures " So we just need to let things stabilize, the UK is fundamentally a stable and strong economy. And it will still offer real sustainable and positive returns for investors And the people who manage the UK financial sector also know what they doing even if at times things appear chaotic

http://news.sky.com/story/1716537/ftse-100-plunges-by-120bn-after-brexit Guys here is some accurate economic insight around the short term consequences of the BREXIT But remember this is mostly due to global economic uncertainty, the FTSE will recover once things stabilize

Her comments are annoying and uninformed Who is she anyway? She thinks it will be great when Trump becomes president because there will be a WW3? Mam just ignore her and the anti-UK comments, did you read some of the views from people supporting her, the degree of invective and anti-Western sentiment never ceases to amaze me

This BREXIT outcome has very little to do with racism and the fact the citizens of the UK are bigots. I reject that completely I find these types of Twitter comments come from people who are ignorant and prefer making false characterizations or assuming the BREXIT is all about issues like immigration, this is only part of it

This is exactly the views and commitment I have been wanting to see from people living in the EU, there has not enough emphasis on the positive aspects of the EU The right wing will focus on the negative and use hyperbole to generate fear mongering and gain support The EU will survive this but with the UK leaving now and the next 12 months or so of economic instability this is an excellent time for all people living in the EU to ask important questions like " Do I like the EU? " " yes there are issues within the EU but its much better to be part of the EU than to be separated from " " I want to be part of the EU but I want some structural changes " But once again dont become despondent and think " now the UK has left the entire EU will collapse " It will be a much different outcome and result if the various right wing groups in the EU think now that BREXIT is done there own countries can just leave the EU And this is a good thing for those that care about the EU