BruceVC

Volo please, false concern for Iraqi's is beneath you., you dont care about Arabs who live in the ME. It actually makes me feel nausea's when you pretend to care And yes the USA pulled out end of 2011....al-maliki was left running the government and was told to incorporate the Sunni's He failed to do this, its not the West fault for this failure They were aware of the risks, they just didn't care miscalculated the threat entirely. http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/06/14/hillary-clinton-received-secret-memo-stating-obama-admin-support-for-isis/ Obama may have read this but once again it was time for the USA to leave Iraq. The creation and success was a group like ISIS only came after the USA left Iraq But for me even if the USA knew about ISIS why must they get involved in Syria? The Russians and Chinese vetoed any military intervention in Syria http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/world/middleeast/russia-and-china-veto-un-sanctions-against-syria.html?_r=0 So the Syrian was left and predictably it got worse and worse, the country now must be one of the most damaged places in the world but I'm not sure what people expect the West to do?

But Volo you are comparing a modern movement for greater recognition and fairness from how the police treats them to a fundamentally racist white supremacist movement founded after the civil war...its terrible comparison and completely unfair They aren't for greater recognition and fairness. They are an organization based on lies. Black criminals are killed by police at the same rate they are arrested for crimes. White criminals are killed by police at the same rate they are arrested for crimes. There is a disproportionate amount of blacks in prison because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime. There is no big conspiracy by the government or white people to oppress and kill blacks, they have been taught that there is though, so they act accordingly. They also have a culture that glorifies criminals. They also seem to be in denial about what kind of people these guys are too. You can hardly describe a guy with multiple domestic abuse convictions, multiple prison sentences, a warrant for his arrest for failing to register as a sex offender who is carrying an illegal weapon while owing 25,000 in child support as a "good man" As for earlier, if they reform their methods, and actually take their name seriously and start tackling the real problems of violence in the black community, then maybe I will respect them as an organization. Right now they are a hate group with 5 deaths under their belt. Okay I am not going to give up on this point http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/ You should read some of there principles before you say they stand for racsim ..for example see below Black Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

Oh dont get so defensive, people get so defensive sometimes I am telling you the truth about the EU, it can only work if there is a central government. Yes it appears many people who live in the EU have forgotten this and somehow this has become a huge criticism and is seen as a failure There are real social and political that the West is undergoing, these things dont have to be seen as something serious but they can be. So for example BREXIT and Syrian\Refugee crisis have made people start questioning the actual sustainability of an institution like the EU And there is nothing wrong with a different view to me or a negative view but there are also people on this forum who care about the EU and I want to set the record straight Criticize the EU about many things but this whole " sovereignty " point is just misplaced unless someone can explain exactly what freedom or laws they want from Brussels ....but lets not criticize something that cannot and shouldn't change because its necessary for EU to survive

Geez you weren't joking when you said you were unphased by what people in Kazakhstan thought about the USA...it really doesnt bother you

I cant view the video?

Volo please, false concern for Iraqi's is beneath you., you dont care about Arabs who live in the ME. It actually makes me feel nausea's when you pretend to care And yes the USA pulled out end of 2011....al-maliki was left running the government and was told to incorporate the Sunni's He failed to do this, its not the West fault for this failure

But Volo you are comparing a modern movement for greater recognition and fairness from how the police treats them to a fundamentally racist white supremacist movement founded after the civil war...its terrible comparison and completely unfair

Haven't we played this game before? Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links No because we've been done this road before multiple times. It's like riding a merry-go-around ..... And you seriously don't remember this? And I thought you had a photographic memory ........ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79124-road-to-the-white-house-2016/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1701567 And once again, Obama was not responsible for the troop withdrawal from Iraq. That was dictated by the existing SOFA agreement that expired in 2011 and put in place by George Bush. Without a negotiated extension, the troop withdrawal was going to happen anyway. Giving him credit for something that was going to happen if he did nothing seems a huge stretch; especially in light of the fact he actually attempted to negotiate a NEW SOFA which would have kept troops in place.* In fairness, I'll give him credit for the massive effort to stop the further spread of the Ebola outbreak, normalizing relations with Cuba and focusing more on relations in SE Asia. Beyond that, I can't think of many positives from his foreign policy. *Zoraptor would arguably point out that the Iraqi parliament wanted the troops gone so a SOFA extension was highly unlikely. While that's certainly got a lot of merit, it is immaterial. It doesn't matter whether it was the Iraqis or USA that were being intractable during negotiations. The point is that when they failed, the existing troop withdrawal deadline took effect Yes but I only remember things that are true or relevant .....imagine if I remembered all the nonsense I heard Sure, okay the withdrawal troops was sort of discussed before Obama but was it ....read this http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/02/14/82082/despite-opposing-withdrawal-from-iraq-cheney-takes-credit-for-withdrawal-success/

Volo you do realize you are adding another group to your large, varied and unfairly targeted hate/dislike list of people you have issues with...my advice is learn to accept BLM, they will refine there tactics and become more reasonable

Shady does this embarrass you? Comical. We're to believe this has nothing to do with political showboating? Nevermind the risk of getting capped by an unruly civilian is far greater. More so statistically black on black crime is a greater cause of black men's deaths. This whole BLM is just manufactured chaos by a power elite that have decided that sowing discord is the best way to keep the more politically minded away from the realization of what the actual problems are and divide them into conflicting groups. The problem becomes race and gender instead of class and influence. No guys come on, lets give BLM a little more respect than that ....they have some valid objectives

Haven't we played this game before? Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links

What part you laughing at, its true what I said

No happiness is a choice if you live in the EU, not that you have done much to assist our EU friends in feeling happy in living the EU In the example of the EU its a unusual construct, someone like Meshugger or Dark may feel the EU needs to change and they say " I'm not happy " ...but they happy they just dont realize how happy they are The EU is exactly what its suppose to be, it wont function without the central government and EU institutions...these are mandatory. So it makes no logical sense to say " we want more sovereignty " ...thats like saying " I want to watch a movie but the screen doesnt work "

Volo!!!! Stop being racist, he was not Latino,yes he was neighborhood watch ...that case was the beginning of the perceived bias society and the courts had towards African Americans. It started here

WOD I dont think Trump is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain strategy He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters Trump never targeted "Latinos", he targeted illegal aliens. What he said it the truth and needed to be said, although he could've been less inflammatory. I've never denied the man has his faults. http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/07/05/200k-criminal-aliens-booked-texas-jails-past-5-years-says-dps/ He's right in not apologizing, once the sharks smell blood, they close in for the kill. If we lived in a more responsible and civil society I'd agree with you. He made some off-color remarks in the past, but most men have. Again, I'm not denying he has faults. The first question Kelly asked at the debate wasn't a question at all, but a vicious attack which no one would be in a position to answer, the equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Someone had clearly charged her with taking out Trump, and Kelly is insufferably self-righteous and smug. Trump was right to react the way he did, but he shouldn't have obsessed with her so much. Then again it's all part of the show. He was attacked as much as he attacked. He's pretty ruthless in going after what he wants, but that's not necessarily all bad in a president. Don't think so, although a couple of occasions he could've handled better. Yes we do see some things differently around Trump but lets wait till after the election because I have a much more detailed point to raise but only once Hilary wins ...and I wont be gloating but rather discussing some interesting developments I have observed in the USA

Shady does this embarrass you? Now now Bruce, people in glass houses... Oh no the difference is SA is facing real economic and social challenges not some exaggerated police violence perception....I wish that was our only issue I can tell you things that you wont believe but end of the day I see real positive changes in SA so I'm optimistic

Dont misunderstand me I do understand how you view things like freedom of speech, I just dont think its applicable in the SA context ...in fact I know it wont work here So for me what you see as an agenda I see as a valid social issue but now I see your broader point, the president should maintain himself with a certain level of decorum and yes he did make certain comments personal. I have no issue with that but I can see how that might have made people think he was being unpresidential Well foreign policy decisions can be summarized for me as He respected the veto of the UNSC in regards to Syria, we should respect this He refused to agree with Israel and Saudi and just bomb Iran..the negotiations with Iran have worked for the moment The idea that the US has to be seen to be strong by invading a country due to some red line being crossed seems unnecessary considering what a mess the region is Obama has made meaningful foreign policy decisions like using drones and stopping Ebola He pulled the troops out of Iraq He avoided unnecessary confrontation with Russia and unintentionally the Russias have destroyed there own economy ...this is a better lesson for them than some US military rhetoric He has still assisted traditional and real allies like the UK in certain conflicts like Libya So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have? For me this whole police violence has been exaggerated on some levels and the media is feeding the hype .....even though they mean well

I hear you, if its any consolation I did refute that point last night I dont like unreasonable or untrue criticism of the West because its then used as an excuse for then not improving our own reality ...so someone may say " well we have corruption but look at the USA and all the racism "

Because now people are saying "as a black person I am scared to go on hoilday to the USA because the Police will kill me " I heard this last night, so people have an inaccurate negative view of the USA

Shady does this embarrass you?

*sigh* whether you believe there is larger problems in the US system o' justice (and trayvon martin is a horrible example for reasons we mentioned elsewhere on these boards... bad bruce,) the shootings in MN and LA do not necessarily represent such problems. to use the incidents in louisiana and minnesota to advance possible unrelated agenda issues is irresponsible at best. be Presidential. am agreeing that there is a problem in the US given the current relationship 'tween law enforcement and citizens... particularly young, black and male citizens. you think obama's recent comments did anything to reduce the tension? regardless, at this point in time, to claim that the videos from louisiana and minnesota were anything other than isolated incidents, and to claim that they is symptomatic o' larger problems facing the justice system is wrong. advance dialogue by advancing the possibly false perception that the recent shootings in louisiana and minnesota were symptomatic? is not necessarily a lie, but is pretty darn close... and is irresponsible given the current racial tensions. we do, as a nation, need more dialogue on the issues o' how police interact with citizens. as leferd mentions elsewhere, the fed is actual taking steps to deal with those issues. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88037-dallas-sniper-shootings/?p=1826545 so why didn't obama do as did leferd? acknowledge that there is a deep perception problem and explain that the Federal government is committed to dealing with the problem through education programs that is already in place. counsel restraint. advise 'gainst premature rushes to judgement. be a President. HA! Good Fun! You dont like Obama much? Thats fine I know we can still have an objective debate on him What possible agenda do you think he is pushing? Maybe I need to understand how you view Obama to see where you coming from on Whats interesting about Obama is this whole " he polarized the USA " is a minor thing compared to how we differ on his foreign policy decisions but only time we prove who is right about that

WOD I dont think Trump is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain strategy He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters He decided in the beginning of his campaign that PC was wrong and he would never apologize. This whole " I dont apologize " view is actually a much bigger issue than you may realize He then made the egregious mistake of offending the majority of women in the US in various ways, that Megan Kelly interview summarizes this He intentionally brought a level of belligerence and personal attacks on his fellow Republicans and degraded the Republican nomination He did encourage racial divides in the USA because he came across as arrogant and dismissive of anyone who differed with him and seemed to suggest " white supremacy " to me?

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African Americans are treated in US society? Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas ... am not seeing a point. if obama had stayed complete silent on the dallas shootings, particular after seeming to rush to judgement on the earlier shootings in louisiana and minnesota, there woulda' been a p00p storm o' epic proportions. no gold star for obama for the no-brainer. and don't fail for false dichotomy. is not condemn shootings as part o' a symptomatic problem OR ____________. obama can sympathize and advocate restrain while _________. again, fill in the blanks with any number o' responses. is no dichotomy as bruce seems to wanna present. we expect sympathy, but we also expect obama to be Presidential. failure to say anything that mighta' helped prevent ferguson riots were disappointing. drawing conclusions 'bout larger problems related to police practices based on no more than a grainy video o' an armed man being wrestled to the ground and then shot AND video taken AFTER the shooting o' a person pulled over 'cause o' response to a BOLO? sorry, but the commentary at this point is irresponsible. w/o knowing more, to conclude that the recent shootings is symptomatic o' bigger problems for police is just... wrong. be sympathetic. be concerned. but be freaking Presidential. for chrissakes, one reason we dislike trump is 'cause he shoots his mouth off when speaking from a point o' ignorance. obama did the exact same thing you has criticized in trump, yes? HA! Good Fun! Maybe we arent on the same page, we all know there are issues within some sectors of the US police force. You know this, Obama knows this, I know this. Many African Americans from the Trayvon Martin story felt very agitated about how they perceive they were being treated by the Police, so I doubt Obama would have prevented the Ferguson riots or any other for that matter by his words. So for me people have this expectation for how they expect Obama to behave but all he did was recognize an issue that exits in the US society and then say " changes need to be made " ...he didn't vilify or demon the entire Police force in the USA? And I'm sure his overall view on how some African Americans are treated would be based on his own life story and not just some video Unless what he said wasn't true which is a different story

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African Americans are treated in US society? Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas

we would say that trump is more symptomatic than. cause. is few, if any, folks who but for trump commentary would be peaceful and productive members o' society. and to be fair, obama handling o' racial tensions in the US is arguably adding as much (and likely more) to the chaos than anything trump says. yeah, we sympathize with obama as there is frequent no right thing to say, but generally when he does speak on racial issues, obama errs and helps further polarize an already concerned public. HA! Good Fun! I I have spent the first few months studying the rise of Trump and only now do I understand most of what he stands for Can you mention some examples where Obama has polarized the USA public by his words, I have often watched his comments on these matters and they seem reasonable ?