BruceVC

KP its inaccurate and unfair to compare Saudi Arabia to ISIS ISIS is much, much worse

And? Should we just accept it now in a connected and digital age ?

Thats a good question In the case of SA currently no they wouldn't be justified as the private sector is suppose to be separate .....but personally I would prefer SA would be more concerned with this type of cyber attack but we are still dealing with certain disruptive social, economic and political realities that are due to Apartheid and bad government decisions, so SA is probably a bad example

I'm glad you asked " what should be done next ", that is a very relevant question The current punitive steps Obama took is fine for the short term, it sends a message. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/us/politics/russia-election-hacking-sanctions.html?_r=0 But going forward we need Trump to at least acknowledge the threat, failing that we need reinvestment in the USA cyber-warfare division so the USA can protect itself going forward and Russia needs to be made aware these types of cyber-attacks are unacceptable Sanctions can be increased if Russia ignores this but no one is suggesting the USA must go to war with Russia....thats ridiculous and will never happen because of mutually assured destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

There are several Republicans equally concerned, people like Lindsey Graham http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/gop-senators-join-dems-condemn-russian-political-hacking/

Very pithy words, very wise

Because there is no evidence. And these agencies are responsible for security are they not? I think I already stated that, but if those 17 agencies would state that Russia "hacked the election" AND their chiefs would all place resignation letters the same day, because they feel responsible, I would consider that something happened. Right now it's just word against word. So: "If you don't believe in this theory then you don't believe in Democracy"? That's an old leftist song and no one buys this narration anymore, sorry. Wanting proof for claims has little to nothing to do with democracy. If anything wanting proof and holding gov agencies responsible is STRENGHTENING Democracy. Do you think that Russia is a good example of a Democracy? Do you prefer the Russian view of the world to lets say the view of the EU has where we recognize and enforce human rights and tolerance ?

Despite some Republicans disputing this Russia also hacked the RNC http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/russia-withheld-hacked-rnc-emails-to-help-trumps-campaign-report/ But I dont think this will change your mind about whether this was an attack on the USA so let me ask you this Dont you believe in a Democracy the election process needs to be as free and fair as possible, for example we know there is always some negligible degree of domestic vote rigging in all Democracies which we expect and normally doesnt impact the end voting outcome If you believe the process of the election should be sacrosanct then surely you can see that hacking the computer system that maintains vital information around any political party should be considered an attack on the election system because you are undermining one of the core components of that Democracy , a political party And if you seek to undermine the Democracy of any country then is that not an attack on that country ?

We need to discuss the Russian hacking of the DNC, thats what the thread is about but as it pertains to Russia this is about a history and culture of these types of events so the context needs to include how Russia has been involved in interfering in numerous governments for the last 10 years through there skill around cyber-warfare There is no doubt Russia was involved. It makes any discussion around this topic impossible to have if a person actually tries to claim " Russia wasn't involved or there is no evidence " 17 different US security agencies have stated this, why would you doubt this? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/10/21/17-intelligence-agencies-russia-behind-hacking/92514592/

Happy Birthday young grasshopper

But again I have acknowledged certain countries spy or are involved in cyber-warfare. I also gave examples But no country has directly used cyber-warfare like the Russians lately to impact foreign governments institutions like the power grid of a country, this is unprecedented

But just to reiterate the broader point, this is not about the left or the right There is a real and sustained attempt by Russia to implement political change throughout the world through advanced degrees of cyber-warfare I have posted real links and evidence. This is not about fear mongering because that would suggest its not real or not a substantive risk , this is real. The question is " do you care that any country can impact the social and political stability of the USA "

Sup All I have realized that for some people there is a misunderstanding around the relevance and perceived impact around this whole " Russia hacked the DNC ", personally I have always been very concerned about the Russian hacking but I never explained the context and history of aspects of cyber-warfare perpetrated by the likes of Russia and why it should matter. This post is a discussion around this First important consideration is this whole Russian hacking is not about changing the election result, Trump won, and is not even about the hacking of the DNC. This is about something much more significant and is more about the principle and global position of " should the global community accept this type of interference and potential impact that the Russian hacking represents " Many countries engage in aspects of cyber-warfare\hacking and in many cases this is state sponsored, state sponsored means the actual government is involved which means hackers have increased access to resources and state funds which logically makes the hacking more effective than some guy living in a basement trying to discover if aliens are in control of the CIA For example China has hacked the USA in the interests of corporate espionage on numerous examples http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chinas-great-brain-robbery-hacking-us-companies-national-security-emergency-1538590 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/07/09/hack-of-security-clearance-system-affected-21-5-million-people-federal-authorities-say/?utm_term=.129e3ed13ed4 NK hacked Sony http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-behind-sony-hack-u-s-officials-n270451 Israel and the USA hacked Iran and created the Stuxnet virus to impact their nuclear program http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/Stuxnet-virus-set-back-Irans-nuclear-program-by-2-years But in almost all these cases, except Stuxnet, the objective of the hacking was corporate espionage or a political statement. So in other words the Chinese want access to the corporate and government IP of the USA so they can grow there own economy But the Russians under Putin have been doing something more insidious and more advanced than any other country over the last 10 years. They have taken hacking to a different level and there hacking has directly impacted the government institutions and infrastructure of numerous countries....there objective through cyber-warfare is not just economic gain, which is normal, but rather an attempt to implement social and political change. Some good links to read for a summary of this An overview of Russian hacking over the last 10 years targeting the USA and other states http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/russians-hacking-dnc-america/ The attacks on Estonia http://archive.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/15-09/ff_estonia?currentPage=all The attacks on Georgia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_during_the_Russo-Georgian_War The attacks on Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/22/dnc-hack-crowdstrike-ukraine-malware-russia So in closing anyone who cares or supports the principle of a government being independent or anyone who cares about a free society needs to ask themselves a very important question " do I believe a foreign country has the right to impact my government institutions, like a power grid, through hacking and cyber-warfare" If the answer is " no " then these Russian hacks should matter because as I mentioned in the beginning this is not about the DNC but rather the fact Russia has the view and ability to attempt to influence the social and political stability of a country like the USA the same way it has impacted other countries like Estonia and Georgia

Oh yeah. Sorry, I forgot that years working at the top of Apartheid system turned you into this. But please remember that we're not a black people in SA during that period and we're not obligated to treat you as a deity. And black people in SA are not required to do so anymore too. You really weird, you know that ?

I am not sure that is accurate? You never seem to raise any concerns when black people are killed by police or the police are heavy handed in the USA In fact sometimes you seem to almost dismiss violence or bigotry committed by white people as if its not real, like that ridiculous suggestion you made about " is there any proof that any of Trumps supporters have been involved in any hate crimes or involved in committing acts of violence " ...and I think you were being serious about that suggestion ? We all were and you still didn't produce a single evidence. Or are you suggesting that asking for proof is racists itself and we should believe such claims just because? Its simple really , everything I tell you is true. No need to question it further, just accept it as the objective truth

I am not sure that is accurate? You never seem to raise any concerns when black people are killed by police or the police are heavy handed in the USA In fact sometimes you seem to almost dismiss violence or bigotry committed by white people as if its not real, like that ridiculous suggestion you made about " is there any proof that any of Trumps supporters have been involved in any hate crimes or involved in committing acts of violence " ...and I think you were being serious about that suggestion ?

So if its not a hate crime are you saying we shouldn't charge them at all, do you think maybe counseling will work ?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/03/health/two-year-old-rescues-brother-video/index.html Guys you must watch this video, its really heartwarming and cute

Link?The OP thinks I am an alt. My name there is Barnabas same avatar.http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/final-solution-to-the-alt-question.112795/ You know I am going to make an account now on Codex just so I can comment.....you made me think of something funny Let me know your user name if you do I will be using my normal name, no need to hide my name BruceVC when I will be making constructive comments about how the Codex can become a more cordial place and attract people who have some SJ values? I imagine some of you may be thinking they wont care but why wouldn't anyone want to improve themselves if confronted by reasonable criticism ?

Link?The OP thinks I am an alt. My name there is Barnabas same avatar. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/final-solution-to-the-alt-question.112795/ You know I am going to make an account now on Codex just so I can comment.....you made me think of something funny

I am impressed, I always thought of you as someone who wasn't really cultured and would never spend that much money on dinner as you saw no value in it So nice one, you really put effort in. Your gfriend must be loving you

And why should they be friendly with Russia ? You're one of those people that are friendly with everyone until you have a reason not to ? Russia has hot strippers ......isnt that a reason to be friendly to Russia

Yes I would also never eat anything we consider pets like dogs or cats. For me things like snails, marrow and chicken livers are " normal " but pig intestines that sounds interesting? I have never tried that I still would love to get your opinion on the Buckhorn Exchange, I know you said no one wants to go but they serve unusual meat Elk and Yak http://www.buckhornexchange.com/suppermenu.php

Don't worry Turkey is part of Nato, and they also like systematically oppress their people. So you know how much freedom means for freedom army Yes Turkey has made some controversial political choices but they also a very important strategic partner to the West in the region so we cannot be too judgemental For example, one of the many benefits Turkey provides is the processing area for refugees attempting to get to Europe

The rise of homophobia in Russia is not a big factor for the tension between the West and Russia, this would be a minor issue in the world of global-politics. But it creates criticism from some circles towards Russia but this is more on a SJ\equality level The West has a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, they are both united in the war on Islamic extremism. After 9/11 Saudi Arabia didnt care about fighting Islamic extremism until they started getting targeted. So the West and countries like Saudi Arabia have a common enemy We have to ignore the obvious issues around some human rights abuses in places like Saudi because we face a greater threat from the likes of ISIS and Al-Qaeda Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?I do, but I'm just finding it a bit ironic and a bit funny that USA wont get along with Russia because of difference in beliefs BUT in USA christians and Muslims and atheists are all supposed to get along even though they have difference in beliefs and ideals by LAW.Just seems a bit hypocritical of USA especially with tolerance being shoved down our throats over here. Why not do what they force their citizens to do, get along and work together even though culture/beliefs/morals are different and go against each other. You are asking a very pertinent question, I have realized people like myself who have been raising this whole " guys Russia is hacking the USA,.,,,,,,why aren't you getting upset " are not explaining the context or going into the history of cyber-espionage so it probably seems we are making at times an unreasonable fuss over something that for many people doesnt appear serious I am going to make a separate post around this to explain in more detail why the Russian hacking is a concern ...I look forward to your comments Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT infrastructure of countries is also a relatively new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes seeYou are talking about new methods and new technology not new mentality. As always you don't dissapoint by being clueless and oblivious to reality and facts. Volourn is right, mentaly Russians didn't change at all for... well it will be a century in March.Oh you guys are talking about the historical behavior of Russia and not what they actually do nowadays....its still inconsistent to the criticism but I see the point I'd like to know, it's always good to get as many sides of the story even if u may not agree with what's being said. Also I'm a bit on edge with RL, so don't take my rants personal lol I enjoy your views and dont see your posts as rants, rather as honest manifestations of frustration around some societal dynamics