BruceVC

Gorthfuscious, how is the Victoria lockdown going? Its early days I know but hopefully it slows down the spread and leads to better citizen participation in best virus prevention practice

There are definitely elements in homeless communities prevalent in many countries that fit this profile. I have personally seen this since moving to Cape Town that there are homeless people involved in the crimes you mentioned

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/07/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-positive-coronavirus-intl/index.html The Brazilian president has tested positive for the virus, this is no surprise considering his appalling rejection of the nature of the virus and its spread

Thanks for sharing, I dont understand all the sentiment that Americans feel about the Civil War..I am going to read this detail and maybe ask other questions because there are some things I dont understand about the negative views but it is probably because Im not American Edit : Your post has already been revealing .....the detail is exactly what I need to analysis this historical event

Hurlshot I am a little worried that a liberal and well meaning state like California could alter there history interpretation of the South, in other words the Confederacy will be seen in history as nothing but an attempt to justify slavery and that would paint the entire movement in a negative light Its unlikely and I know you probably have no visibility on this but has this been mentioned ? This will just lead to additional frustration from most Southern states as they will feel vilified which is unnecessary

They cant just erase history, the loss of Confederate soldiers should absolutely matter to people in Southern States. It doesnt mean you support slavery but your ancestors death or commitment is still relevant ....and I cannot believe most people in the South will just accept this Surly we can separate slavery from the fact many Confederate soldiers didnt even own slaves but believed in the doomed cause ....of course the reality is the South breaking away would definitely have weakened the overall USA immeasurably so the South had to lose to ensure a better world with a united USA we all know about ?

Gromnir I am glad you are asking a valid question around the true importance of statues, they do matter and are important in countries that have had a great loss of lives due to events that I will explain. I am not sure this will apply to Confederate statues but in the case of the UK statues like the Cenotaph and Churchill are important And any form of damage like vandalizing or actually trying to destroy the statue will always been seen as unacceptable because of the overall principle I will just use the Cenotaph which is one of the most sacred. It was elected after WW1 as a permanent tribute towards the millions of British soldiers and there allies who died fighting. The outcome of WW1 was the entire old empires of Europe were destroyed forever and a new better world was suppose to be the future....ironically it took WW2 before this lesson was truly learned But the damage done to individual countries after WW1 was the real devastation, in the UK for example the second wave of volunteers were allowed to enlist based on villages, companies and social groups. So you had whole villages being part of the same unit....these units were deployed initially at the Somme which was a real disaster for the British in the first 2 days because the British miscalculated that there massive, unprecedented artillery attack did not destroy much of the German trenches because the Germans had literally designed deep trenches unlike the allies which meant the entire artillery attack actually didnt destroy the German front line at all....the Germans basically went underground The British then after several days deployed there new regiments expecting to find no enemy but the Germans literally came up from there trenches and used there murderous machine guns units to annihilate and kill thousands of British troops who died in no mans lands. In one day the British lost 60k troops ....the actual outcome back home was whole villagers lost all there men due to this mistake Every family basically lost someone in WW1, my own SA family had my great grandfathers brother die at the Somme and our English families lost 2 brothers but there was no such thing as people going unscathed So when the war ended the impossible thought of how to remember all this death was summarized in the Cenotaph, this is why many British people still actively support Armistice day. I have many books about WW1 and there are many tragic losses but I will never forget is a Scottish family who lost 7 out of 8 sons and single crying women at the day of the surrender who was asked " why are you crying ...we won " ..she replied " I lost all my 4 sons in the war and at least I know there deaths werent in vain " So when small groups decide to damage statues like this with no understanding of what they represent it will be never be acceptable for obvious reasons. The irony being many people immigrated to the UK exactly because of the sacrifice this statue means and yet they want to damage it And for countries like France they suffered even more losses

Gorthfuscious please can we have this debate because I enjoy your debating style and I havent been able to have this debate with anyone in a meaningful way? And you have shared interesting links that often explain your personal views around things I may not agree with but once I read the link I can see why you feel that way....like the Oz banks and the bad perception that people feel towards them. So I would like your honest opinion around what you dont agree with And it is specifically about Churchill and should his statue be taken down. But to understand my point you have to try to be objective and ask 2 very important question about any statue that people want to take down. Because certain statues should go but others represent something greater than the need to take them down So the 2 questions about taking any statue down should be What country is the statue in What is the person most famous for and what was there overall contribution towards that country Churchill played a critical role in leading the UK in WW2 and wast just about morale, his equanimity and fortitude ended up representing what Britain stood for in a true battle of "good and evil ". This cannot be ignored in the same way Stalin was for USSR and Roosevelt for USA In history and generally how people are judged its about there overall contribution, they shouldn't been vilified for certain comments or views unless there comments and views are more significant than there actions. Zora was actually the first person to suggest Churchill was racist due to his actions in India, I hadnt heard of that until he mentioned it. I did some research and it had some truth to it but that is not is overall contribution towards the world we all live in In other words its difficult to look back at most historical figures and not find something wrong with them if you only consider certain offensive comments they made as what defines them ....dont you feel its unfair ? And then another point which is more for people in the UK proud of there history or rather respectful of the sacrifice millions made in WW1 and WW2 is statue of Churchill is in London because of what he did basically in WW2.....I can honestly say I dont know one person who thinks of Churchill firstly as a racist because WW2 was literally an existential war between Democracies and the final evolution of what would represent White Supremacy or the flawed belief that certain white ethnic groups were superior to other races So I would assume anyone serious about BLM would recognize that Churchill fought against true racism and a world where if the Nazis had won the future of any black person would be beyond terrible So in closing, you right Churchill should not be seen as a humanitarian role model. That was not what he did to make a the world a better place

You make sense to me, sometimes I wish you got more involved in asking these types of questions because that way I also can see if what I am posting is coming across in a negative way And you are one of the many people on this forum who I have learnt certain things from and that in turn has made me a better person. This forum is the first forum from a non-work perspective I have been an active member on for so many years without getting banned or people ignore you so you leave. It use to happen to me about 2-3 times a year on other forums and I never really understood why I was getting banned or people didnt seem want to talk to me which makes a forum experience boring. I was never really concerned because there are hundreds of places on the Internet to discuss things I enjoy and I never thought I was in the wrong I remember 2133 years ago called me " thoroughly, revoltingly condescending " , now of course he was exaggerating because I have never been called that in my life and that includes huge arguments in RL. I have often been called condescending but never " thoroughly, revoltingly condescending " But on this forum people have sometimes PM in the old days to chat about certain comments I had made which could be offensive ...anyway it allowed me to understand where I was being rude or misunderstood. For example if BLM was only in the USA then it would be very strange and offensive for someone outside the USA to be critical which is why I wanted to clarify what I was saying And just to be clear. I think BLM is well meaning and most activists I hear about offer constructive comments about societal changes or raise valid issues. Its just the extreme groups or certain outcomes that I object to. For example in the UK vandalizing certain statues like Churchill and the Cenotaph is going to far for many people

Definitely, but there are movements that address African problems that I do support But BLM is not just an American movement anymore , I wish it was because I would never criticize any legitimate social justice movement that develops in other countries. But BLM is basically in many countries outside of the USA and the latest outcomes impact people who live in these countries that in some cases have no link to the USA So in other words I am not criticizing aspects of the USA BLM but rather how it evolves in countries, like South Africa and UK , and how we all get associated with racial problems in the USA which are different throughout the world and then there are real societal changes or expectations based on BLM USA but its not the same in our countries I could ignore it because in SA its already basically died down but I have real connections to countries like the UK where its ongoing so it does effect me and people I know But please dont think I am really spending energy concerned about the USA BLM, its not my country and that is really the concern of Americans but it does have an impact or influence globally and that does matter to me I hope this makes sense ?

Interestingly enough their is a real African diaspora, some BLM activists go on news networks and believe the African diaspora is there lived experiences in first world countries where they are often second , third and older generation. Many valid concerns are raised and Im not dismissing racism or discrimination, but the real suffering of black people is not in first world countries ....terms like " micro-aggression " and " structural racism " become more relevant than what you have raised unintentionally and in a joking way African people that immigrate to countries like Sweden come from certain African countries where in most cases there is no future due to bad leadership, wars and or egregious corruption and lack of governance. But its not all African countries, for example how many people become African refugees and look to Europe from Namibia, Botswana, Zambia, Rwanda, Kenya and many others There are real rising stars in Africa but you cant compare them to any first world country because that is an unfair comparison. South Africa is a hybrid country where some people live between first world and third world in the sense we are well aware of the poverty and levels of inequality that exists due many factors....but in closing no one ever wants to leave there country and go somewhere else. I never understood this until I started travelling for work in Africa and the ME and I met many immigrants But end of the day the real problem and question all of us living in Africa need to ask and address is " why are citizens leaving certain African countries and immigrating to places like Sweden " Its not sustainable, it doesnt help the objective of the true African renaissance that many of us support and it undermines the institutions like the African Union which lack any political will to address internal problems. I wish BLM was about the problems of the African continent because all that energy and effort would be much more appreciated and constructive in the goal of " Black Lives Matter " which should start on the African continent

How many countries in Africa have you traveled to GD ?

I dont know Malc, there are very hot ladies from the Caribbean, Nicki Minaj is from there. It may be worth going on a reconnaissance at some stage for you

That is cool, nice one

But that is exactly the global problem with federal systems of governments.....there is intransigence and rejection around how individual states decide to address virus spread which ultimately impacts the entire country and that would include states that follow best practice

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53218704 Its the last thing we want to have to deal with but there has been a new virus identified in China, yes China AGAIN, that has the potential to be a pandemic

Its interesting because Oz has a relatively low level of infections...yes you can argue that can always get worse but that risk is normal in any country that has pockets of the population that ignore basic virus preventative measures...like the USA Im surprised the Australian government is still not allowing travel between all states or rather isolating Melbourne and Victoria but that is the nature of the reaction to the spread. Its understandable from a health perspective but I dont believe end of the day it can stop the actual spread because that is about citizens taking responsibility and again you can see from our friends in the USA the failure, in this time of virus, of allowing too much freedom of speech and too much freedom of choice As I have mentioned in the past this is one of the very few times I admire the Chinese one party state and how citizens basically do exactly what the state tell them to do Before the virus it would have been difficult for someone to give me a valid reason why Democracy has its real negative outcomes

GD you not considering all the advantages with this modern world, how are you going to play Skyrim and sip on delicious red wine if you living in the mountains ?

I hear you guys and this call to " defund " the police is a reaction to the heavy handiness of police due to specific cases like the George Floyd death But a police department is not generally considered an institution that has a target and must be profitable, of course it shouldnt run at a loss. So even though I can understand your examples the practical outcome of cutting any budget\defunding is less revenue in the beginning of the year will be allocated to that department which means either police will be retrenched or you will reduce other expenses like overtime or training. This will obviously impact morale and make the overall department less effective. Is it fair that all police in any station now have to suffer because of some bad actors? And there should be a level of real police training before we outsource any task to other groups like you guys suggested ....in other words surly you have to have real police responding to disturbances because until the police arrive how does anyone know that the issue is just " people using fireworks " and not an actual violent criminal encounter ?

Can you provide links or can you explain further ? And the USSR invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's and the role the CIA played is not the same thing as that was a proxy war and part of the Cold War

I find any suggestion to defund any police department counter productive and will just add to more crime and general instability

Thanks for sharing, one of the reasons I was interested in Melbourne is that is where my cousins on my moms side, they not in finance as that is my dads side of the family, immigrated to in 1996 after Apartheid ended . These cousins played an important part in my early years being raised by my mom so I am concerned with there well being and the virus spread in Melbourne The irony is I dont have much a relationship with them anymore so its sometimes just easier to ask a non-family member who lives in Oz information about Oz ...like you, I hope this makes sense

Gorthfuscious what is a summary of what is happening in Melbourne ?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russians-offered-taliban-bounties-kill-us-troops-military/story?id=71495576 There is a new development that Russian intelligence have been paying bounties to Taliban factions for any USA and coalition soldiers killed in Afghanistan I have been researching this appalling story and even though it cannot be corroborated I believe its true. This needs to be heavily condemned and of course Trump is denying he knew anything about it which I believe .....but it doesnt change that it is ongoing

So examples like this will undoubtedly lead to virus spread but so will some of the BLM protests where people disregarded masks and safe distancing And its not unique to USA, I see similar outcomes in SA and other countries