Dakoth

No they did not which is why we get mixed messages. If they thought religion should have nothing to do with civil government they would have removed everything religous from said government. We would not swear the president in over the bible, our money would not say in god we trust, we would not swear an oath on the bible to tell the truth in court. What they were afraid of is like what happened in England were the state made a church and forced all to use it, and the church went along with it because it meant wealth and power. You notice no where in the constitution does it forbid a clergyman from running for public office, odd if they wanted complete separation of church and state. It also never forbid a person from running for office if backed by a church. So please tell me again how your interpritation is right and mine is wrong? You think it is ok for the state to impose laws and taxes on the church but the church should have no opinion on government.

No because it is not later intrpritation that is in debate. Those are wonderful quotes but I noticed no oppositin to the church only to men in the church politically motivated. Those men believed in religion thats why we swear on the bible in court, congress is opened with a prayer as has been tradition, and the president still places his hand on the bible when sworn into office.

{Quote}Whoa, I completely missed that statement from Dakoth. That's just crap. The provision is in the constitution to protect the state from the church, not the other way around. You forget that many, many Americans ended up in America during the founding days to escape religious persecution. The founding fathers did not want church interference; they weren't worried about state interference with the church. Those are 2 completely different statements Comissar which is right? I also don't see where it was there worry the church would take over the state as much as the other way around as they experienced that in England already. Please explain as I find it interesting? Do you also feel this way about the rainbow push coallition which is headed by Rev. Jackson?

It is pretty much the same basic thing. I wish we had places in our area like you speak of because that sounds like fun.

Never played air soft but it looks interesting.

Then we agree I never said I was against gay marrige, I said a lot of fears would be aliviated if people could be assured the law would not become a weapon of the gay agenda. I am not saying it would but the people we are talking about are not always rational are they. Really so you are saying in a time when almost everyone had religion, and most of the settlers were running from a government that had a state sponsored church that was helping fleece the people of money it was the other way around? Interesting concept and even though wrong I know I will never change your mind. No we are not I stated my views if you didn't read them thats your problem. I simply am telling people why the religous right believes so adamantly about things when it comes to marrige. Really thats funny neither did mine. What injustice is there in calling someone a stewardess instead of a flight attendant? Yet if you do people look at you as if you have just hurled a racial slur. That no matter how you want to debate also falls under political correctness and is a bit rediculas. Yes but both hold strong political views and try to motivate their comunities to vote for democrats. You are 100% right Farakan is an extremest but for the most part so is the religous right while you have no problem with one you condem the other. Mr. Jackson lives for nothing more than to create conflict between african americans and whites that is why he went to Decatur to defend those fine young gentlemen that held that boxing match in the bleachers at that school. Gee thats funny what happened to the separation of church and state? If the state can preside over a church matter which is what marrige was for a long time why can not the church reside over affairs of state? It appears you think that that provision should only go 1 way right? EDIT: Comissar read carefully what you just typed because it explains what I said exactly. Why were they running from England again? Religous persicution by a king who when he got in a fight with the pope started a church that answered to him and outlawed all other religions thus making it the only church people could attend with out fear of legal repercussion. The reason that provision was written into the constitution was to keep that from happening in the new world.

My problem with your statement was we knew what we were getting when Dailey was elected. The same can be said for the presidential election. Then we do think some what a like as I feel the same about a lot of republicans. I don't bring them up 1 because no one else has and 2 even if you did I would not defend them because I don't think like them. Limbaugh tends to be a blow hard as does Hannity at times.

Sorry should have said way to tow the party line, don't speak bad of a dem to loudly that would be wrong. Who was in charge of that wiser it sure as hell wasn't republicans because Chicago is run by demecrats and has been for many years. Really why not ask the suburbs like Naperville, Plainfield, Joliet, Peotone, Manteno, Bourbonnais and Grantpark they were all small towns at one time and have exploded population wise because of people looking for a better school system than the Chicago public system. Incidently it to has benefitted from legislation by democrats hasn't it? Way to show your superiority again as if there were many places you can go in Illinois and not have a working sanitary system. That should show the rest of the people reading about your attitude that if you don't live in Chicago you don't count. Please show me the forced religious values you follow, and no what I said was this over polite, no one is to blame, we can't hurt anyones feelings that is normally being shovled by the left is just as absurd as a religious person saying they don't like the state to marry gay couples.

Think of it as the game war with guns that shoot actuall projectiles. Small paint pellets that are water solluble(?SP).

Interesting to find out New York is the utopian city we are all loking to live in. No crime, no impatients in traffic, people stopping to give rides to people who have broken down on the interstates, no drug problem through out the city either huh. Whats rent like, how much do houses cost, whats the average salary, the reasons I want to know is I am packing my bags to move right now. P.S. Who was responsible for all that stuff?

Ah so once again a dem choses inaction because it doesn't affect him. Way to go with people like you around I am sure all the things you fear will come true. Once again the miss use of the separation of church and state some thing else the left is good at. I have said it before and will again that was a provision of the constitution to protect the church from the state not the state from the church. That changes the fact that marriage was a religious cerimony a long long time before governments got involved how? Nope just think it needs to be said that there are secretaries, garbagemen, and that it doesn't take a village to raise a child. Does it truly matter if you are called a secretary or an administrative assisstant why not just do your job and give up on the self agrandisement. Well how about I throw out gentlemen like Louis Farakan and Jesse Jackson 2 men that know reverse discrimination very well. Care to defend Farakans view that blackmen should kill all whitemen and form their own Black muslim nation? Nartwak you missed the point churches have been conducting marriges for hundreds of years that is my point.

Interesting wiser you bring up a good point and that is the one about the failed social program called welfare. The projects of Chicago are some of the worst places to live, crime, drugs, gangs whole high rise floors burnt out people afraid to go out at night because they might get mugged or shot in a drive by. Also just because you are a Chicago elitest doesn't make you not from Illinois although I would like to claim that myself. You are right it does depend on a lot of things I also notice you didn't adress the question directly. Also let me throw this out there why are people who can are leaving Chicago in droves for the Subburbs, and how much does a house in Naperville cost again on average 250-300,000 plus 8000 at least in property taxes a year. Not really it was happening even before Clinton got in office. You see wiser people from small towns resent the fact that you city people leave the city for a better life in a small town, then when you get there and relise its not what you expected you try and change it into a mini Chicago. All you do is make it extremely hard for the people born and raised there to continue to live in their home town all for your version of progress. I was born an hour from Chicago and can remeber when you could get a good house for under 100,000. Now because of urban flight you are lucky to find a good house in a decent neighbor hood for under 180,000. Oh yeah I am by no means poor either wiser I am a tradesman and my wife works for the post office so we do quite well, I just think its rediculas to pay Chicago money for small town life.

Really here is something interesting that was said by our states favorite son Richard M. Dailey (a staunch democrat). I did what I had to do migs field was a danger to the city of chicago. That was paraphrased by the way. He said that when questioned why he sent crews to migs to tear up the runways in the middle of the night when no one could get an injuntion to stop him. You see for ever nut on the right there is one on the left all politions will use what ever tactics or laws to their advantage. The problem is most people will look past their party doing it because if their side did it it must be right. How about we talk about the burgler who broke into the same house 2 nights in a row and when the home owner shot him the second night the home owner went to jail.

First of all I hate to break it to all you atheists, but marrige was a religious cerimony a long long time before the governments took interest. I almost gaurantee if you can assure most christians that if this law is passed it will not be used as a weapon of the gay agenda to silence churches (The law said we can marry don't make me sue you for refusing to marry us. That sort of thing) I think there would be less oppostition. I feel more people are like me and could really care less as long as they don't force the church to marry them. Secondly how is that any different than all the politically correct nonsense the extreme left tries to force us to use. I am not a garbageman I am a waste removal technitian. Please this is no different than when Clinton took office the far right thought it was the end of the world as they knew it. Guess what they and you are wrong.

Was just wondering what had changed. When I played there where no tournies on tv and speedball was just getting popular. Is the auto-****er marker still one of the best markers? P.S. It only hurts for a second Darque and even then only if the lumox was really close or uses cold paint.

Is this Bush's fault or was this something happening long before he got into office? To use a line from someone else. Can you provide evidence for this?

So you did the exact thing you accused Nartwark of doing. Hmm interesting.

So why continue to argue with nartwark if they meant nothing to you?

Care to put it to a test?

Hmm where to start? Do you truly care what happens then to anyone or is it all a fasade to make you look good? Once again no one said Saddam would use them on the US the worry was he would sell or give them to someone that would. Also about them not being there Saddam knew he was going down this time so I could see the old phrase the enemy of my enemy is my friend coming into play. Was his rhetoric any different than Clintons when he went into Bosnia and Somalia, the fact is the Iraqi people are better off with out Saddam. Maybe if Clinton had the testicular fortitude Bush does North Korea wouldn't have nukes, or have you forgoten that happened on Clintons watch? Also would you risk pissing China off going in guns blazing into their neck of the woods to attack the very people China helped during the Korean war? How would they fair if a man like John McCain ran? Oh wiser how deluded you are, you of anyone should know the shambles a democrat run state can be put into. Where does Illinois rank in dept for states again? How long has it been since a balanced budget has been passed? Why not enlighten the rest of these people to the cost of rent, property tax, and sales taxes in our great state. What is the cost of a single family home in the city of Chicago again? Yes wiser all that comes from those social programs the dems love so much. So take it from a crazy republican nutcase if you support those things you are the only idiot on this board. Wait a second I thought there were Europeans killed during 9/11, you see we look very similar to Europeans so I doubt a terrorist will check before detonating a bomb near a target. So does that view also apply to the constitution since it was written over 200 years ago and things have changed so much? Lastly I was going to accept this thread for what it was and not respond but after reading stupid **** like this I felt I needed to respond. First off I am sure you understand, it is no longer a division between North and South it is a division between urban and rural, Penn should have proven that. You people from the Big city think differently than we small towners do so maybe that should be taken into consideration before something as ignorant as the above posts are written.

Was thinking of getting back into the "sport" and was wondering how much things have changed. I got out of it in 98.

Ever think he could have been a medic in the military, or how bout an EMT, or paramedic and people assume he is a doctor because of that medical training. My question is who clubbed Saheed at the end of the last ep.

A quote from me A quote from taks Holy cow I was begining to think I was the only one to understand this. :D Quite frankly I am tired of listening to our fair weather friends across the ocean. Everyone is happy to have america as a friend if they need something or have something to gain, but as soon as America looks for help and there is nothing to be gained our so called friends turn their backs on us. They call us idiots because we do not think or act like them. Di said it best our ancestors left because they didn't like living under your rules. Also if you think other governments can not affect things in the US with their policies look at China and relise you are dead wrong.

Just goes to show how differently people think. I voted for Bush but would gladly take up arms against him if he tried to pull any of the stunts listed above. I also don't see where any religious ideas are being foisted apon you by our government. Other than the right for gays to marry, (but that has been something not accepted for a long time, and change is never easy.) that is also an issue that I think if it was cleared up and the message got out that they want marriage by law and not church there would be less of a problem.