Llyranor

<3 MCA \o/ ^^

There is no spoon... Yet. That is to say, the basic goal which we have set up - and I think Volourn would agree here - is that we will do our best in creating a module which we like. For the record, my admitedly ambitious plan is to combine the uniqueness of Torment's gameworld, and Arcanum's take on technology. And a fair bit of their storytelling and roleplaying. I could go on about the plans we have and the ideas I've been developing but we would be discussing just that: ideas. I wouldn't mind presenting them but they are still at their infancy, and if there's one thing I would like to avoid is to hype this before development has even begun (not that I'd hype it after it's begun, though). Then again, with Volourn on board that might be hard - his name alone will propel this module's fame into great heights. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not so much interested in the ideas as the philosophy behind designing such a mod. What would be your focus in terms of storytelling and roleplaying?

"Failure" could teach you lessons that "success" would not. Effectively, this could mean you would learn different "abilities". This is in a way how I'm implementing the journal system. It just doesn't automatically get updated. After a mission/quest, the PC goes to write down what has occured in the journal. It wouldn't just be an objective process ("Today I killed Mr. Volo!"), s/he'd go about reminiscing about what s/he would have learned from that mission, what to retain for future, self-doubts, etc. This might affect XP and such - if you haven't learn anything from the events that came to pass, it should make senses that you get less XP. One could learn different lessons from the same event, depending on perspective. This might eventually affect the ending, but that's another story. Case in point, rewarding failure when appropriate = good. It's much better than simply making the player reload because s/he didn't get what s/he wanted.

I'd be interested to know a bit more about your project, how far you are in it, etc. Haha, you're finally officially teaming up with Magical Volo, eh? Magical Volo as main coder, R00FLES. That being said, LilacSoul's script generator is a boon. Good thing I have some skilled programmers to abuse, though.

I think the trick would be not to make it feel like 'Academy syndrome'. Making it as thrilling/compelling as the rest of the game, making the player FEEL like s/he is in the 'full game' already, but with the character creation process as a SIDE-effect of the scenario. It would need to be made both un-tutorial-like, and un-OOC, as well as conducive to replayability.

From Sharpei_Diem in RP's RPGcodex thread: I was thinking this had some merit, and points out why people consider character creation is an 'OOC experience'. What if, upon starting the game, there would be no character creation screen, no 'OOC experience'. You'd start off in whatever scenario, in full-fledged "roleplaying mode". As situations are presented to you, you get the choice in how to go about them, how to solve them. If the PC has a penchant to talk his way out of things, or just likes to hide and sneak around, is it not because the character (who already exists prior to the game actually starts, after all) is more proficient in said methods of conflict resolution? If the player opts to have the PC solve each of the problems in vastly different methods, is it not because the player expects the PC to be more of a generalist rather than a specialist? You'd be effectively roleplaying. No stat-assigning required, it'd all be done behind the scenes. There is no 'learning' process - the PC does not become good at these skills because s/he uses them in the game during a 'tutorial', s/he uses them because s/he already found him/herself good at them before the game ever started.

That is true.

Interesting thread, and sounds like a nice character creation process. I'll looking forward to playing your NWN2 mod (which, btw, does not have a FPS view, though I'm sure you could emulate it via making the PC cutscene_invisible). I get the point of replayability being an issue, as the others have pointed out. Some of comments you said in the thread: I think that's where our philosophies in terms of 'character creation' might differ. Growing up on console RPGs, character interaction has become a pivotal part of my expectations in RPGs (though I'm completely dissatisfied with the way both console and PC RPGs have handled themselves as a storytelling medium, but that is a story for another time). The purpose of boot camp wouldn't be purely 'character creation'. When in school, for example, you aren't just there for learning - it's an entire social entity in itself, and so many others things occur while there. You would be effectively actively playing your character. This would in effect be like a 'mini-hub' (or a pseudo-'town', if you will). I think I see where my mistake was. Replayability in a long and arduous character creation process can be a chore. Perhaps I was putting too much emphasis in it, then. What if, you were given relatively free reign to roleplay a character that would have ended up in a such situation, and that the character creation process was a secondary effect? The focus would thus be in the character vanquishing obstacles in such a setting, much like in any other setting, rather than a direct focus on 'making' a character. Much like learning is just a toxic side-effect from going to school

Yeah, in the sense that, even upon being set up with certain instructions during a particular lesson, your ways of tackling it and thus what you would learn from said lesson would be be defined by the actions/choices you would take in order to accomplish your objective. Don't want to study? Sneak into the kitchen to steal some food. Learn the trade in the process. It would something of a balancing process, where you weigh the benefits of studying as opposed to acquiring more 'practical' skills. Ah, but you would already be in the process of defining your character not just as a gameplay entity but also as an individual in said world, developing relationships with those around. This would be the place where character development would start. Learn about your comrades - how they react to some situations, what makes them tick. What is story if not a scenario enabling you to interact with the environment and its people? You are propelled in the role of a soldier, your obstacle is to graduate - how do you proceed in tackling such a task? Sure, nothing 'happens' as in the city isn't being attacked, no one is being murdered, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Capturing the thrill of being a new recruit having just joined and going through a training session - more as a storytelling sequence than an actual 'tutorial'. Drama, emotions, plot twists - all those can be developed within the setting of a 'classroom' without resorting to external factors driving the world and the story. There is a real impact in terms of the characters. That would be the focus of such an area - character creation, but more importantly: character development. The point of replayability is one worth mentioning. I guess making it skippable would work. I think the solution could be to make the scenario *interactive*. The point isn't to spoonfed the player 'how to play'. The player already knows how to play NWN2, it'd just be a process of defining the actual character. In effect, the player would be actively roleplaying the character. It wouldn't be a 'save the world' situation, but it could a much more personal process just as well. 'Deflect your opponent's blows. Do not be lured by the desire to directly oppose it.' 1) 'I see. By deflecting it, I would redirect the opponent's strength away from myself, and potentially unbalance him/her in the process.' --> 'Yes. In doing so, you might uncover an opening, and thus an opportunity to retaliate.' A) 'I understand. I will retain this lesson.' B) 'Hmm, I'm still unsure whether simply preemptively striking wouldn't be more efficient and effective.' 2) 'Nonsense. If I cut him/her short, his/her movements would be halted mid-way, rendering the attack ineffective. This would give me the opportunity to strike as well.' --> ''You make a good point. Though, would this course of action not lead to wasted energy from your part as well. Taking a full blow head-on is no simple task.' A) 'Not if I can easily overpower the enemy. I refuse to avoid a confrontation on the mere speculation that I am too weak.' B) 'That makes sense. Still, I believe the subsequent opening would be worth such a price. If I can disable the enemy quickly, the problem would be solved.' C) 'I would know more of what you have spoken of, then. Perhaps I did not register the technique correctly. Please show me again.' 3) 'Hmm, perhaps if I simply dodged it. There would be little danger to myself, and the opponent would waste his/her strength.' --> Perhaps, but would that lead simply nowhere? You would be no closer to defeating your opponent. A) 'If the sole objective is to defeat him/her, then wearing him/her down is a valid tactic. I am not subject to a time limit, am I? B) 'Hmm, what if I dodged in such a manner that I would position myself in an advantageous position, either to permit a quicker retaliation of my part, or to put the opponent in a position where striking again would be more awkward.' C) 'Or I could try as you say. Deflecting the blow.... Is this correct?' So it wouldn't just be a process of character 'creation'. You would be defining his/her personality, effectively roleplaying him/her. Add in meaningful character interaction (fellow students would interject their own beliefs into the previous example, for example), and is this really less appealing than a tense situation where 'stuff happens'?

Overall a nice read. It was already known that MCA would be doing all the companions for NWN2. Definitely the part which has me the most looking forward to its OC.

I doubt many people are fans of the way NWN handled the tutorial. Yay academy! 'Go attack the dummy for XP!' Now, what if such a 'tutorial' was a full-blown scenario? What if character creation took 5 hrs, for example? How much 'character creation' are players willing to go through before actually tackling the 'real game'? I'm sure many RPG players are fans of character creation, but is there such a thing as too much of it - regardless of how it's being fleshed out? Let's say, in a completely hypothetical situation, you were to play an RPG where you start off as a new army recruit. Let's say the game is made from the NWN2 toolset, and that it was modded to disregard the default character creation screen, except for gender and race/appearance. Classes, abilities, skills, feats, spells would be a thing of the past, at least as they work in standard DnD. What if, say, for example, the game would start with you having already signed up your name to enlist. You would start off showing up at boot camp. You would get a brief interview with the recruiting officer, confirming your enlistment, asking you a few questions - why you joined the army, who you are exactly, your background, your areas of past expertise, previous jobs/professions, what role you would prefer having once you wear the uniform, etc. Basically, setting up a name, a background, a face for an otherwise nameless character. Much like Arcanum or Fallout, you might get some advantages and benefits depending on your background. Were you a pig farmer? +1 to charisma towards pig, -1 personal hygiene or whatever. At some point, you would be subject to a physical examination and an evaluation of your mental status by the medical staff? Again, you can list out things you've had in your past medical history, which can confer pros and cons. You can be assessed. "Fairly strong individual, but appears unkempt, intelligence seems of average or above average caliber, appears to have auditory hallucinations, etc" Again, bonuses and penalties. This would, of course, require sufficient balancing. As well, this wouldn't just presented as some sort of Q&A session or something. You'd be interacting with NPCs - the recruiting officer, the medical personel, fellow new recruits, and so on. This is where you'd be beginning to form and define your relationships with those around you - those you'd be spending time with during the 'real game'. Eventually, you would end up getting formal training as a soldier. This wouldn't consist of a tedious tutorial on 'how to play the game' (click on a spell, click on the target, get xp and a free scroll! congrats!). It would have to be presented in a realistic manner. The instructor would teach you how to maneuver efficient in light armor, how to handle basic weapons - the sword, the spear, the dagger, etc. You might get some basic teaching on stopping bleeding, stabilizing wounds. This wouldn't just be a matter of 'learning new skilsl for your character' such as obtaining new weapon feats. You are in a teaching session. There is a teacher, and there are your fellow recruits. There would interaction between NPCs presented as realistically as possible. You would learn HOW exactly these skills would be learnt, not just something purely abstract. 'Hold the spear this way, follow your opponent's movement, do not loosen your grip, etc', 'apply this type of herb to the injury, the piece of cloth you use to tie around it needs to be tightened and the knot must done this way'. There would be some give and take in terms of interaction between you and the teacher and the other learners. Depending on your preferences, you would get some elective courses as well in areas of specialty that you were deemed suitable for. Advanced wound care, specialized swordsmanship, perhaps some magic. These would be your 'class'. Depending on how you actually perform in these courses, you might learn different abilities. During a swordsfight, you might learn either 'power bash' or 'kick dirt' or 'swift feign' depending on what actions you choose during the lessons, for example. You learn when to strike, how to strike. Is it best to attack the legs in this situation, or should I got for the weapon arm? In magic, perhaps your grasp of it is limited at first, and spells you try to control are a bit random. You learn to feel its flow, understand the philosophy behind it, how to visualize and take control of it. Perhaps initially, for example, you learn how to handle fire. As you cast it on an opponent, does it heat up his weapon and cause him to drop it, does it blind him temporarily, does it miss completely, or does it hit you back in the face? As you gain 'levels' and your control becomes more refined, you get the opportunity to affect it more to your will. Perhaps you get some teachings in terms of martial philosophy. You learn how to apply tactics both during battle and before it, you learn that much of the battle's outcome comes from your preparations before it occurs. And you would get evaluated. You would get study time, you would go to the library, perhaps read more on the subjects. Your fellow recruits would be there. You would get to know them better. You might choose to slack off, perhaps offering you new abilities as well <_< Now, this wouldn't be the start of the real game yet, more of a prologue/tutorial. After all, story-wise, nothing much as happened. Though, you would be learning the ropes, your character would learn how to be a soldier, the player would learn about these new gameplay additions, and you would develop interactions and relationships with your surrounding NPCs. In that sense, the story is already flowing, it's just that nothing has 'happened' yet. Thus, this would still be character creation. How do you guys feel about character creation? Is there such a thing as too fleshed-out a process? Would too many options keep you away? More to the point of this thread, what exactly about character creation (and I mean in general - the above is just one possible example) do you really like? What features thrill you, which ones wouldn't you like to see? I ask this in terms of already existing games, possibly upcoming ones, or hypothetical/ideal games. What does well-executed character creation mean to you? I appreciate any feedback.

Apathy is death.

R00FLES!

Sounds interesting. My fav released mod (beta) so far is Plan of Attack. Get the beta at http://www.planofattackgame.com/ Basically, online team+objective-based mod. Two teams, each with a base. Each map has 3 other objectives. Each round, one team attacks and the other defends. At the beginning of the round, one member of the attacking team is randomly chosen to be the leader, and dictates WHICH objective is to be captured. There is also a 'strategy maker' in which this leader draws a plan on the map to show HOW the team should proceed in said assault. Very conducive to teamwork. Each objective grants different rewards, varying amounts of XP and money. Very fun.

I'm a consumer too!

How long did PST have in terms of dev time? How long exactly is NWN2 getting again?

Is it really our life mission to turn every thread in this board into Ep3 spoilers?

The ghost mansion in Bloodlines *was* pretty cool.

HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!

Hah. Say what you will, I'm looking more forward to NWN2 than any other title Obs (or any other company) would come up with at this point. I can't wait to mess around with that toolset, which sounds better and better the more devs post about it on the NWN2boards. Mod project has progressed from pre-planning to planning phase since Jan 2005 \o/

Hmm, I guess this helps http://www.obsidianent.com/jobs/prod_full.htm

Setting aside finances and PR then, what does this 'creation' part actually entail? Is the producer actually involved in making the actual game?

Just a quick stupid question (remember, kids, there are no stupid questions - only stupid people). What exactly is the role of a game producer? As opposed to a designer.

.... Babies?