Elric Galad

It works now

Ahem, but they worth 6 phrases. Which is 4 martial ressources according to my table. And more or less above anything a caster can do. Not sure either. There is no better Single Target damages than Disintegrate and Ancestors Memory is extremely potent too. What blurs the argument is that many high tiers for Ciphers are... Okayish ? But are they weaker overall, I' m not sure. The model is just an approximation anyway.

When I try to balance abilities between class, I take into account their cost. Which can be an issue granted that their ressource systems aren't the same. Brilliant gives 1 random spell, 1 martial ressource, 1 wound, 10 focus and 1 phrase per tick. However, I don't value all these ressource the same. +10 focus isn't much. +1 random spell can be brokenly good. So how much do you value each ressource ? Here is how I do : Martial ressource points are the "reference currency" for me as it is shared by the most classes (6). MC get 9 ressources. SC get 11 ressources. Spell Tier Slots : I use what I call the "Trickster conversion table" (loosely based on Trickster illusion spell cost) : Tier 1 to 3 are about 1 martial ressource. Tier 4 to 6 are about 2 martial ressources. Tier 7 to 9 are about 3 martial ressources. These are obviously approximation (Trickster even has spells from the same tier that don't have similar cost.) Some of the devastative Tier 9 spell could easily be valued 4 ressources. But I think it's not a too bad model. This means that a MC caster has an equivalent 6x1 + 6x2 + 3 = 21 martial class ressources And a SC caster has an equivalent 6x1 + 6x2 + 5x3 = 33 martial class ressources This is much more than martials but : - Casters have much less passives to choose from (and can't upgrade their abilities) - Casters have several spell tiers, so their ressource pool isn't as flexible as the other. This also forces them to pick more active abilities to be able to spend all their tier slots. It also means that SC casters get a significant ressource increase compared to MC. Phrases : Invocation cost varies from 3 to 7 phrases. These abilities worths less than 3 to 7 martial ressources. But Invocations are still very strong spell. They are also often convenient (no friendly fire) and fast to cast. I tend to count 1.5 phrases = 1 martial ressource. It means the first tiers Invocations could be worth 2 martial ressources (which I feel accurate) and stuff like Ancient Weapon could be worth 4 martial ressources (which I feel accurate too). Focus : I think Cipher spells are approximately as strong as their "normal casters" counterparts. 10 to 30 focus : about 1 martial ressource. 40 to 60 focus : about 2 martial ressources. 70 to 90 focus : about 3 martial ressources. Overall, 30 Focus ~1 martial ressource seems a good approximation IMHO. Wounds : This one is tedious to evaluate because there are much less active abilities using wounds than for other ressources and I suspect they are poorly balanced. A reason for this poor balance could be that Shattered Pillar is capped at 5 Wounds, so 5 Wounds appears as the max possible for a given ability, artificially capping Wound costs. But Whispers of the Winds costing 5 vs 3 for Skyward Kick is a bit of a Joke. Twins for 4 wounds seems super low too. I would tend to consider 3 Wounds ~1 Martial Ressource would be a good approximation, bar a couple abilities that "don't cost enough". 1 Martial ressource for Thunderous Blow, Skyward Kick or Torment Reach feels about right.

Ahem And what about Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming ?

No, you're right, it's not working for me either, even if there is a green checkbox. I'll check this evening.

Seems ok now !

I confirm that the same applies to Heart of Fury and Whirling Strikes (Whirling Strikes do not benefit from additional PL beyond 8, but that's because it was buggy anyway). I confirm that the same does NOT apply to Clear Out, Flagellang Path and their respective upgrade. Clear Out has this weird double attacks on Main Target though. I would gladly trade it for a proper AoE display.

New version uploaded as usual : Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com) Included various tweaks to Fighters and Barbarians and a couple more (slight buff to SC Chanter). Basically this version is the consequence of my thoughts about general class balance. As usually check the <Version 1.5.4> tag in the description. Nexus editing is becoming weird, and I have to switch to Code mode to update the dexription. It makes keeping perfect track of previous version with barring super tedious. Anyway barring made the page sometimes a bit messy, so it isn't too bad. NOT INCLUDED : scaling issues with WotW and similar abilities, WotW nerf, wound costs possible nerf, possible Shattered pillar nerf and BPM Empower abuse prevention. This would be for next version. Happy new year 2022 to everyone !

Foor you are to tell me, now I will have to patch it out Enjoy it while it lasts (or use previous versions when it stops )

While I agree with Boeroer point, it must be noticed that MC starts out basically strictly superior as SC, having twice ressource pool, class and subclasses intrinsic passive at lvl 1. So they are usually much better at this point too. Some gamechanging abilities sometimes give a distinct edge to sc for portions of the levels such as Ancestor's Memory between lvl 13 and 16 or Unbending between lvl 9 and 13.

It refunds 1 spell of 1 tier at random for each class ressource (as for Brilliant, but without tier restriction from CP/BPM). It doesn't add 1 ressource on the 0s tick. It might not be enough for solo, but may help sometimes.

Minor remark : Strand of Favor abuse and similar effect don't work with BPM. Minor question : have you tried using Potion of Enlightenment component of BPM ? This potion is very expensive for every fights. But it provides +1 ressource every 30s, so I expect it would affect balance between classes a lot. Anyway, thank you for every element of visibility you give to my mod. It's really rewarding to see people using it and liking it.

I think the 2 main qualities of MC are : - Better Passive / Self Buffs because you pick the best ones from 2 trees and I don't think Tier 8 and 9 make up for this. Pal Aura, Chanter chants, Fighter modals and Monk whatever... It works even without synergies, especially when it adds up to party strength. - More ressources. This is striking with Martials. 11 ressources vs 9+9 for MC. That is significant only because ressource limit is a factor. Classic casters have usually enough spells for an encounter, martials have to save them a bit more. I think this is the contrary to what previously stated : SC tend to be better at performing a couple of stuff, while MC tend to be more well rounded. Passive and ability to perform longer always work in the background in favour of MC. SC Druid is better at launching one big Maelstrom while Helwalker/Druid is going to be better at almost everything else. That said Maelstrom still often worths it ; lifegiver/Helwalker might be better though because these twins are sooooo convenient for Lifegiver, etc... Trade off, trade off... Both are very good anyway.

Stupid question I have never checked : does anyone know how Focus and Shattered Pillar Wound generation interact with lashes (such as Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel and various weapon effect) ? Do they benefit from it ? CP added a 20% raw lash to Biting Whip, I would guess it generates Focus.

There was an issue with WotW in particular, which basically refunded itself. That's just an example, and in this particular case, you'll probably pick Helwaker anyway. Stunning Surge wound regen (because it does give 2 Wounds too...) combined with Enduring Dance give enough wounds for about any of your needs anyway. For any other Instrument of Pain build, I would say Shattered Pillar can feel optimal (for spamming raised torment) I'm still unsure what is the right solution. But I just feel ranged weapon monk niche is quite well fullfilled with Helwalker. I feel I need more inputs about the current status of the subclass.

I think I almost totally disagree with you here. I feel that the argument "why multiclassing if you can have 2 SC instead" is a pretty bad one. The answer is obvious : because it saves you a Party Slot. If you don't take this into account, I don't know what to say. 2 Rogues / Chanters are for me much more efficient than 1 Rogue and 1 Chanter : twice the Chants, about 1.5 more Summons (assuming Ancient Weapons), and probably much better martial damages (unless maybe building around Gambit, then it might be similar). And this is without any MC synergy. That being said your list is super informative. So in my book it's an accurate ranking of MC Synergies. I especially like how you point the level of Ranger appreciation is tied to using Hunter's Claw or not. Even without abusing the bug, this ability can be a Passive +20 Acc / + 20 all defences (I like slightly less the +20% damages) if you metagame enough. Hard to find a comparable level of bonus elsewhere.

I like this kind of daring idea but I think 15 Int/fire lash could be a little too much. I even wondered if putting back the limit to 5 but with a super low 10 damages threshold wouldn't have been nice, since it would favour a totally different playstyle. But I plan to nerf some monk ability with a cost above 5 so it would conflict. Currently, I would still favour 20 damages threshold. Offensive parry is not enough build to make the subclass relevant, 20 damages threshold wouldn't make it that broken and there are other pretty good Offensive Parry build anyway. With 20 damages threshold and rooting pain, shattered pillars would be great. Generate wounds from ranged auto attack would basically make Shattered Pillar into a ranged subclass.

Also if you're playing an Uber defence build, ENEMY fighters are going to be slightly more threatening with this new Confident Aim People often forget BPM buffs also affects (Kith) foes

Do you guys use Community Patch Shattered Pillar ? Is it good with Max Wounds at 10 ? The 30 damages threshold (24 with lesser wound) still feels a bit high compared to the 10(8 with LW) from normal monk. I get why it shouldn't apply to special attacks, but that plus threshold means you won't get more than 1 wound per attack. I'm thinking about lowering the threshold to 20 damages (16 with LW) but I need other people opinion. Also consider I'm thinking about rising the cost of some monk wound abilities (6 wounds for the twins, 6 wounds for resonant touch, 9 wounds for WotW which could even be more nerfed).

Ok I will try to explain the problem in a nutshell (I will be simplifying A BIT). I think this would require its own thread anyway. "Basically", there are 4 kinds of scaling : A - Scaling from weapon quality (Unarmed Scaling is close enough to belong here, even if it has a couple differences). +1 PEN, +15% additive damages and about +4 Acc per quality level. B - PL scaling from Weapon Attack Abilities such as Rogue Strikes. 5% multiplicative damages and duration for each PL above Ability Tier. C - Intrinsic non Weapon Attack Ability Scaling, purely based on Ability Tier. For Each Tier above 1, the ability gets +2 Acc and +0.5 PEN. D - PL scaling from non Weapon Attack Abilities. 5% multiplicative damages and duration, +1 Acc, +0.25 PEN for each PL above Ability Tier. Also +1 bounce and +1 projectile for each 2 PL above ability Tier. So : - An Auto attack will get A so it keeps up with enemy defences. - A Weapon Attack Ability will get A and B so it keeps up with enemy defences and get benefits from PL. - A non Weapon Attack Ability will get C and D so it keeps up with enemy defences and gets benefits from PL. The A, B, C, D values are balanced so that all abilities scale about the same. The benefits from A+B are roughly equivalent to C+D. (It doesn't mean A is equivalent to C and B to D ; D provides strictly more benefits than C). All the above would be great design (and for most part is) if not for some exceptions. The issue is that some "non-weapon attack abilities" are still weapon based. Riposte is a "Weapon ability" but not a "Weapon Attack Ability". In the very case we are speaking about, WotW gets A+C and maybe also B and/or D. I think that FF gets A and D (it's level 1, so no C anyway). I have other worries. Passive Abilities for example usually don't get bonus from PL. But I moded them so they at least get the Acc and PEN PL bonus. I'm also concerned about Unique Weapon activable abilities that could get bonuses from both A and D type (hence big Acc and PEN !). Thunderous Report has always seemed more efficient than it should...

Are you using Carnage and Powder Burn indicator mod ?

Don't know, I like the potential weapon combo. And fist only may be difficult. Easy to do, I'm leaning to that for now. Or even 9 wounds to be honest. 3 wounds ~ 1 martial ressource seems to be a good rule of thumb to evaluate wound cost. Might be tricky to implement, and I rather keep the wound only cost. Sure, weapon+non-weapon scaling should be addressed as a whole. Might be sad indeed. And not the heart of the pb if cost is addressed. Easy to do, and a good solution. Repeat target is usually nice, but might be too much in this case. I don't like exceptions. And fixing the acc scaling could make it unecessary. The Quote function didn't keep the number Great !

Didn't know that. It sounds like it require some cleaning. Honnestly for all of them, it doesn't make senses. Do you know by chance if HoF and Whirling Strikes get similar bonus ? Clear Out and its upgrades ? It deserves testing. If possible, yes, I agree. It could be the contrary, it could cause failed attacks because you move too fast.

Multiple reloading happens all the time in this game. That's not the main issue here IMHO. However, I think it is right to think about a WotW nerf as a whole. The first question to ask is : do we find Whirling Strikes and Heart of Fury OP ? I think these abilities are powerful, but IMHO not broken. They require some setup to work perfectly and costs a lot of ressources. They aren't more broken than, let's say missile salvo. So nothing too wrong for a Nuking SC endgame IMHO. Then what are the differences between WotW and these abilities ? 1) It can repeat targets (you can have 7 strikes - diablo 3, get out of here ! - without too much difficulty, with prestige and a random non stackable +1) 2) It even bounces from far (10m). I know that's not the case we are speaking about, but it contributes making WotW a bit too easy to use in all cases. 3) It cost a renewable ressource. But the list can be expended 1) repeat target can be removed. The number of max targets can be reduced (keep in mind it should have +1 bounce per 2 bonus PL... Empower matters there.) 2) bounce range can be reduced if needed 3) Wound cost should stay BUT the cost can be upped. I think It costs 5 wounds because Shattered Pillar has 5 max wounds. But CP puts the limit to 10. So a monk ability could cost up to 9 wounds now (not 10 because Xoti ). I would even think about some other Monk ability that could cost a little more than they do (the clones, resonant touch). All this won't kill the fun.

I would agree with Kaylon, I don't think there is a specific issue with Mortars. Besides, I can onl make WotW requires a melee weapons, cause it is implemented as Whirling Strikes. As seen below, Melee + Ranged is about as good. Reload is implemented as a Recovery. It might be unrealistic, but I don't want to change that.