Lancer

It's weird.. When I learned to play Basic D&D and later AD&D when I was 12-13, I never questioned these things. I just learned them because that is how the rulebook said that they worked. And I thought that addition/subtraction of single digits is simple enough and so they quickly became intuitive. Whether you are counting up or down really makes no difference to me. They are both easy to grasp. It is not like you are adding fractions like in Champions, for instance! I never thought THACO and AC were difficult concepts. In fact, what I thought was the hardest thing to learn from Basic D&D was the War Machine rules. That took a little. AoO, OTOH, is easily the hardest roleplaying concept I have ever had to plod through. And this is coming from someone who has read through the rulesets of sh!tloads (pardon my French) of games. There is a LOOT more to AoO than what you state here.

It's something that you will find weird at first but there is no science about it. There is no studying a billion rules to understand how reducing AC works (unlike AoO). Once you see one example of it, you know when you see another +? bonus to the AC, that means drop AC by that many points. And it is always like that. 100% of the time. The rules for AC reduction don't change under different circumstances like AoO does.

Oh yeah? Which edition did you teach them first? Likely, that the second one you teach them will be easier to learn for them than whatever they learned first. And Wow.. They understood the intricacies of AoO right off the bat. I am impressed! Your players must be geniuses!

So does AoO apply only in melee? How about spellcasting rules? How does it work there? How does AoO work due to creature sizes and across different character classes/levels? How about turning undead? How does AoO vary according to drinking a potion, taking a free action..etc... And there are many, many more complications due to this one concept. See what I mean? How is learning how to count down possibly harder than this? And this is just from the top of my head. Been a while since I looked at 3e rules.

Now we are getting into philosophy.. lol This is all relative to your own personal experiences.... People who have only been exposed to non-AD&D computer and japanese-style RPGs and never played tabletop AD&D will have trouble understanding 2ndEd THACO and AC for the first time. To those people it will seem counter-intuitive. You seem to fall here. OTOH, people who have played AD&D PnP and/or have played a couple of AD&D computer RPGs (Gold Box etc..) will find THACO and AC very intuitive concepts. I fall in this category. What I am trying to say here is that what you deem as counter-intuitive is highly dependent on your personal experiences. But I don't think there is anything INNATELY intuitive about things getting better as they go up. I don't think things HAVE to go up to be better. When crime rates go up, is that better too? Ok.. Let's put the intuitiveness of 3e to the test. Just a couple of simple ones: 1) Explain to me what is so intuitive about the concept of attack of opportunity in say, ToEE? 2) Explain how dodge bunuses stacking and deflection bonuses not stacking is intuitive? Waiting......

I have first hand experience with Basic D&D, 2ndEd, and 3e. Darque, you don't even game. You just read the books. What are you talking about? lol <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't "game" currently.. that doesn't mean I haven't in the past on occasion. Or did you think I started collecting pnp books just for fun? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fair enough. But have you actually GM/played at least several sessions of both 3e and 2ndEd? Preferably under the same GM or group of people?

If you have trouble counting down or subtracting single digit numbers, I can't help you there. Besides I can easily say the same thing that the only reason why you find a 3e CRPG easier than a 2ndEd one is because you are used to the fact that in most other console/PC RPGs ACs go up as they get better not down. Is it that surprising that you would find counting up more intuitive? With that said, it is still a trivial matter to convert AC in 2ndEd to 3e style (just subtract from 20)so that you can count up or forego THACO completely if that is your wish. I read the 3e rules and played them and were fresh in my mind when I played NWN. I found SPECIAL easy as heck to learn as well and I had never seen that system. And SPECIAL is very different from 2ndEd. Most PnP rulesets that I have read have not given me much trouble at all. It is called experience. And even with my experience learning 3e was a chore. This is exactly what WotC claimed.. Almost certainly a marketing strategy to get more sales. I have yet to see the statistics. Then you are not a valid authority to talk to me about rule systems. Don't talk about something you know nothing about. If you are not familiar with them then you are wasting your time.. as well as mine's. Finally, you are basing your knowledge of rule systems and their "intuitiveness" based on certain cRPGS you played which aren't the best resource. They are not the best resource because believe it or not how intuitive a game feels need not be necessarily related to the ruleset in question but the capabilities of the programmer in making a user-friendly interface. Since these cRPGS are ultimately based on PnP rulesets, the PnP rulesets themselves are the final authority. Until you actually get the PHB and DMG for each edition and read them through (at the very least or even better play a few PnP sessions for both) you can't have an unbiased and informed opinion on the matter.

Yeah that's it..You figured me out. I am soooo old. I am a full 27 years old! More likely, I think it is the newbies that never played any of the PnP versions of previous incarnations that get into 3rd edition and praise it just because that is the only thing they know. You can't blame them, though, they just don't know any better.

I have first hand experience with Basic D&D, 2ndEd, and 3e. Darque, you don't even game. You just read the books. What are you talking about? lol

Nonsense. All you have shown here is that the most basic of 3e rules are simple. If you tell me that someone that has zero experience with D&D can grasp AoO with all its intricacies the very first time, I'd say you are lying. If you tell me that YOU got AoO the very first time with all its intricacies and exceptions I'd also say you are lying. The fact that someone can understand the basic "gist" of AoO is not good enough. You need to know the details and specifics perfectly to be a good GM. 3e may seem simpler than 2ndEd but only at face value. The 3e game quickly rears its ugly head once you look at the rule specifics for both with its myriad number of unintuitive rules and game mechanics just to maintain game balance. Josh's mini-list barely scratches the iceberg. If I ever had the inclination of going through my 3e manuals again and make a list of all the unintuitive rules in that system (1 buck for every rule) I'd be a millionaire. Learning 3e felt much like learning Chemistry. A system with simple mechanics on face value marred by overly complex nitpicky little rules and exceptions. eh..No. I found Baldur's Gate much easier to learn than Neverwinter Nights. Even with BG being party-based and NWN being with one PC. Regardless, playing a CRPG is not the same as playing PnP. The computer handles AoO for you. Honestly, have you ever GMed/played both tabletop 2ndEd and 3e? You get brownie points if you have GMed/played Basic D&D.

WoD is pretty cool but we have already seen at least TWO CRPGS set in WoD (Redemption and Bloodlines). That said, a slight change of pace but still WoD would be a Dark Ages CRPG. What would REALLY be interesting to experiment with would be a Superhero RPG like Champions. To my understanding, that has never been done by anyone and it would be interesting as well as refreshing just to see how well a superhero CRPG would fare. It would be cool if nothing else but to have another CRPG genre out there alongside the stock fantasy and action RPGs. Lastly, I third having a cyberpunk RPG but set in something other than Shadowrun. Cyberpunk 2020 is a good choice but I think even better would be SLA Industries or Iron Crown Enterprises' Cyberspace.

Which are not even part of the 2ndEd core rules. I am talking about the core-rules not supplements or optional add-ons. It is not too hard to remember to use percentile dice for the thief skill chart and a d20 for NWPs. That's it. AoOs on the other hand...

Doubt it. None of the other iterations have redundant and silly rules like AoO. Which in and of itself is a big list. BTW, Basic D&D kills 3e/3.5e in terms of simplicity and elegance. And arguably so do 1e and 2ndEd. @ Shadowstrider: That's all I had to say so get back on topic!

I'd believe it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah... don't.

The following is a painful reminder of just why 3e is the worst incarnation of D&D:

Congratulations Hades for reclaiming the number one position for post count!!! Ok... you are free to continue your discussion on testes connected to lightswitches ...

Here are my picks for CRPGS I would like to see: 1)Another CRPG set in the Planescape universe 2) How about a superhero RPG ala Champions? 3) Another Vampire RPG but using the Dark Ages setting 4) A cyberpunk RPG done in the style of Fallout rather than System Shock 2/Deus Ex

Rocky I is overrated Rocky V is under-rated and Rocky IV was definitely the best.

Has anyone tried "Villains and Vigilantes"? How is it? How does it compare to "Champions" or "Silver Age Sentinels"?

Hey Musopticon! What's up? School is finally out for the Christmas break so I am able to waste my time on these forums again until at least when Spring semester starts. So I trust that discussion on these boards has been interesting lately? And it kinda sucks that Ender left.. I didn't know that there was drama behind the scenes. Lancer

Are you talking about PnP free RPGs? If you are then I would recommend FUZION. http://www.thefuze.com/ This one is very good.

The system that offers the quickest possible play is more than likely Atlas' Feng Shui game. It is *very* rules-lite and is one of the most liked RPGs out there for cinematic action movie style gameplay. I would love to use this ruleset for a "Fist of the Nort Star" RPG.. Hmmm... The most complete system covering most situations would probably be good old AD&D 2nd Edition. It has had so many different sourcebooks made for it that just about every single situation and/or possibility has been covered through its ridiculous past support. Shadowrun without a doubt. This was worse to read through than GURPS. Unneedlessly cumbersome and slow rules. Stick to Cyberspace or Cyberpunk 2020 instead. As has been said the most realistic simulation of reality that I've seen is both GURPS and Rolemaster. I don't think you can get much more realistic than that. As far as most innovative.. This is a toughie, I don't think there truly is an innovative system out there right now. IMHO most of the major systems nowadays are almost all predominantly skill-based and use more or less the same concepts.. That being said, Feng Shui is relatively innovative for action movie style play. The worst system bar none is 3e/3.5e/d20. It is just munchkin garbage. I am biased and opinionated, I know. The best for fantasy is still AD&D 2ndEd and I have a soft spot for OD&D. Sorry Paladium. The best for cyberpunk are SLA Industries and Cyberspace The best for post-apocalyptic.. Well there aren't really any good post-apolcayptic RPGs. Screw d20 Gamma World. I'd stick to a fan-made Fallout The best superhero RPG.. Well, I am actually playing around right now between Champions and Silver Age Sentinels The best for horror.. Lots of people love Call of Cthulhu but the rules are too simplified for me. I just prefer good old White Wolf games I am not too familiar with the anime mecha genre but Heavy Gear looks to be decent With the above being said, let me add one more question that you did not ask: Which is the best system for a homebrew world? I love FUZION. FUZION seems to be one of the most customizable. All the customizability of GURPS without the unnecessary complexities. My next homebrew world will more than likely utilize these rules. Not to mention that it ranks pretty high in covering most situations and genres. The online fan support for it is remarkable. And the wonderful thing about FUZION is that it is free!

PC, although the Sega Genesis/Megadrive was number one for me for a long time. EDIT: Why is the Genesis/Megadrive not in this poll? If the SNES is in it, the Genesis/Megadrive deserves to be in it too.

Honorable Mentions: Terminator I/II Alien/Aliens LOTR Born in East LA

I think the funniest comedies in the history of moviemaking bar-none has got to be the Naked Gun Series.