Kilrach
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Everything posted by Kilrach
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@MoxyWoo: By my calculations, due to enchantment restrictions, there isn't enough anvils for a secondary damage enchantment. Upgrading Good Friend to Exceptional and adding a +25% elemental lash damage might be more potent assuming accuracy isn't as valuable as a damage. So the question is this: is +4 accuracy or 10% more damage better?
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@Atchod: That damage excludes extra 25% Burning Lash damage. Also, I have not enchanted it with a Slaying mod with those stats. I might just fit in a Kith-slayer from now until I enchant Good Friend.
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@MoxyWoo: I was referring to my thoughts about Good Friend being better than Wendgar after enchanting it to Superb. IMO, Coordinating is better than the attack speed bonus and extra crit of Wendgar.
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Don't count Dire Blessing? Why not discount Chill Fog and other AoE debuffs while you're at it, they are also spells right? Now you're just not making any sense. Dire Blessing and Devotions for the Faithful are used when you want your best self against bosses or hard encounters. I still crit like a boss without those buffs due to extremely high accuracy (yes, crit to hit can be overrated) with Pallegina's aura, racial advantage and Marking, plowing through Endless Paths using only per-encounter abilities and Chill Fog. Yes I tried Cloudpiercer, okay weapon except the gimmick of Jolting Touch - like I said once per encounter. Kana's fire weapon chant is nothing to shout about. Using a war bow, you hit maybe 4 times? And that's assuming the timing is so nice that you manage to start shooting the second he chants. Tell me how much extra fire damage that is. And yes, it's for the whole party but the majority of my party is using reloading weapons anyway so reload chant it is. For the second time, I've already mentioned you can get an Exceptional xbow at the Dozens vendor and enchant it. Best crossbow and possibly ranged weapon in terms of instant damage is Good Friend (after enchanting it to Superb). Wendgar gives extra attack speed (already shoot fast enough with the high Dex and Kana's chant) and crit. Coordinating gives an extra +4 accuracy and +1.25x DAMAGE - I pick this over Wendgar (@MoxyWoo: maybe you could comment on this idea of mine?).
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So the question how does the extra sneak damage from the ten rogue shots (including crits) compare to the extra couple of shots from the ranger's speed? I wonder how the results are like if the ranger uses Vicious Aim instead too Also, if we are gonna include Wounding Shot and Marked Prey, shouldn't we include rogue's per encounter abilities and Deep Wounds too?
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Activating Swift Aim incur a hefty accuracy penalty though, not sure how it plays out against mobs with higher deflection. Judging from the description of Driving Flight, it seems like quite a situational passive - most effective when using doorway blocks but not so much when fights occur in open areas. Again, I have no experience with the ability so I could be wrong. I'm still favoring the rogues, then again I might be biased (:
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If you're referring to microing by quick switching multiple reload weapons, I don't do that. I never like the idea of quick switching from a RP, realism and gameplay perspective. The Gunner talent stacking with Kana's chant gives a crossbow user extremely fast reload times - you really only need one good xbow.
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Lol Atchod, you really need to get the stick out of your ass. I'm 40 hours into the game and lvl 9 so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about (people speedrun the game in less than an hour, so does hours even mean anything?). And who the **** do you think you are that you deem people who hasn't complete the game to not know what they are talking or that they mind spoilers? Heck, you completed the game twice and you don't even know about Dire Blessing (just LOL). I KNOW things that you DON'T so don't give me or anyone else this holier-than-thou crap, this community doesn't need an attitude like yours. I've already agreed that if you don't want Resolve as an RP, then I have no qualms about your max INT. Just move on and stop whining about it. My build already has max Perception and a tad lower Resolve. Ironically enough, your max INT has even more value for RP purposes than redundant single-target debuffs which are inferior to CC classes. Also, Wizards have AoE blind AND AoE hobble. I avoid damage even without Shadowing Beyond. Getting WF as your last talent? Good luck with that. Keep thinking that the War Bow is the ultimate weapon choice - I'm sure it'll serve you well (:
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Yep exactly. One Chill Fog pretty much gives you a sneak attack galore. Also, if you're using a reloading weapon like me, then the high INT debuffs matter a lot less. Just leave the CC to the CC classes.
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Oh I haven't progressed that much - I mentioned I'm barely into Act 2. Only gotten Mericless Hand so far. As for stats distribution, I'd say Might over Dex. I'm already shooting pretty fast imo with that kind of Dex. The additional 20% crit is from the Priest's buff Dire Blessing
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I guess if you want to build a rogue with zero RP value then yes, INT would be better than nothing from a purely combat standpoint. Or if you're gonna build a companion who doesn't need any RP attributes. I picked Res because it's my first playthrough and I wanted that RP. My argument for not putting any points in INT is this: your rogue is gonna deal so much damage that a prolonged debuff on a SINGLE target doesn't really make sense. And that's assuming you party isn't focusing on the target as well - the mob will drop like a fly. Unless we're talking about trolls and ogres etc. but either way prolonged AoE debuffs (with the same high INT) however, are a rogue's wet dream. With a cipher and/or wizard, rogue's debuffs are just redundant. But as I said, it's still better than nothing if you're not interested in RP. Pallegina's aura also adds accuracy on top of crit - I'd say she's key personnel. I mentioned this in one of the more popular early ranged rogue threads. The choice I picked is the low-profile and severely underrated crossbows. I wasted a LOT of time using an arbalest before making the switch too. I never liked the idea of Quick Switch (from both a personal and RP perspective) as well so it has always been one weapon for me. It has the sweet spot of having the fastest reload of any reloading weapon while not having any -crit multiplier from an arbalest or -accuracy from a firearm. And like I said on the other thread, it can pretty much match the damage of an arbalest. Why? Because damage still has a range at the end of the day. That means an arblest has a higher CHANCE to dealing more damage than a xbow, albeit not consistenly. And since you'd be a crit monster, the bonus of not having the crit multiplier penalty matters a LOT more. I personally tested out both xbows and arbalest too - the occasional higher damage doesn't warrant the slower reload speed of the arbalest. I have to repeat I wasted a lot of time using an arbalest - could have racked up a lot more damage. I guess the prone effect on crit was still okay. Anyhow, once you have access to the Exceptional Crossbow sold by the Dozens, buy it immediately, enchant it immediately. I didn't enchant it immediately - thinking it needed a lot of resources too. Oh well, the mistakes you make on a first playthrough. Do that and your numbers could very well be better than mine (:
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1. TS mentioned the Paladin as one of the companions to take, so shouldn't the discussion be centered around his thoughts? The world doesn't revolve around you. 2. I'm not sure if you're a terrible player or you don't know how to manage aggro. It only takes a few seconds to position your companions beforehand. Eder is the main tank and the Pallegina supports as off-tank if necessary. Thus all aggro is handled by both of them. Your rogue just stays behind and fire away with the marking weapon user already pre-positioned beside him. What's so hard about that? You do know you can use the Formations feature right? And please enlighten me where all those single target buffs come from? Priest buffs are pretty much mostly AoE. Every buff for my rogue is a buff for everyone else as well. The last time I checked, the rest of the party also wield weapons too. As I look through Durance's spell list, the only single target buff I see is Champion's Boon (which I only just got it upon hitting lvl 9). I never once considered casting that buff as it's significantly inferior compared to Salvation of Time which increases the duration of all buffs for all allies - it's a no-brainer. If you want to talk about self-buffing and inflating their own efficacy, Wizards DO have a ton of caster-only buffs no? Of course I'm not gonna use my ranged rogue with a Marking melee weapon, that doesn't make any sense. You get the St. Garam's Spark fairly early into the game and the Pliambo per Casitàs later - both of them are firearms. If +10 accuracy is useless, then why bother taking WF and Marksman talents? Heck pick the Orlan instead since it's a no-brainer. Meanwhile, a Phantom with 90 def on PotD is laughing at your misses. Again, proving even further you know nothing about PotD. If you do, you'd realise how important the Paladin's aura really is.
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You want people to chime in and the moment someone gives an extremely valid point but differing from yours, you condemn him to be a troll *claps hands* I guess people wouldn't believe anything without proof. You can go to our other thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76011-lets-talk-class-balance/page-14 From page 14 onwards, you can see Sanctuary's Rogue stats vs mine later on. Yes, 3 INT for me (: @Looms: Those stats are spot-on, pretty much the same as mine except that my Res and Per are switched with yours. 16 Res is more than enough for most Res checks. You can buy a +2 Res ring later on for those that require 18 Res checks. @Sanctuary: I really don't want to be your antangonist but I have to disagree again. Sure, it takes more micro to position your characters to receive the Minor Threat and Marking buffs but Marking contributes significantly to my later success in the game. In PotD, enemies don't tend to die fast. And I don't see the problem with a companion next to you? Also, the Paladin's Zealous aura also has a 3m range only, I don't see you mentioning that. That means both the pally and marking weapon user (assuming they are not the same person) have to be close to the rogue. And to think you accused me of being lazy and not optimizing my playstyle in the other thread - *rolls eyes*. Maybe you're the lazy non-optimizer consider you deem Marking as a useless mod? (: With regards to race, I chose Wood Elf simply because I want to be one. I'm not that anal of a min/maxer. But from that viewpoint, my Elf has a 45% crit to hit with a Dire Blessing and Crit Focus (excluding Predatory weapons) - I personally think it's good enough. You gotta decide if 10% more crit or +5 accuracy is more important. IMO, the main problem with your build (and Sanctuary's) is the weapon you both chose to use. I could be wrong though, but I love the weapon I'm using and my stats speaks for itself. Since I'm not "allowed" to discuss because of my advocacy for min INT, that's all I guess (:
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I made that pointless comparison to show how pointless your comparison was. You were comparing spellcasters to rogues. IMO, they are primarily a crowd control class rather than a DPS one. Same goes for my Eder, he's primarily a tank but he still can dish out damage with that accuracy - do I view him as a DPS? Of course not. Yes higher difficulties favour Wizards and less so for a weapon user with high defense for enemies, yet my Rogue can still dish out the damage. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of NOT optimizing or getting lazy for fights in PotD, even if I wanted to. So that's definitely not the case. That being said, I don't like to rest unnecessarily, and I don't like to use spells unnecessarily. Therefore, I'm not a rest scummer (after a rest, I went through lvl 5-7 of Endless Paths without resting, gonna rest after a couple of fights at lvl 8 now). I have a feeling you haven't tried PotD yet or haven't ventured into the Endless Paths under that difficulty. I can say that AOE fire nukes pretty much tickles anything more than a Xaurip, even normal Xaurips still need a hit or two after being hit by a Fireball (most likely grazing them). Oh, I did mention I'm playing with FF on didn't I? That means I couldn't use Fan of Flames whenever I want. Chill Fog's great though. Either way, IMO AOE debuffs > AOE nukes - I don't want to sound like a broken record. That's because I think Wizards are primary a crowd control class like I said before. I mentioned I'm at Act 2 because I believe my overall contribution would only get better. Besides, you should be looking at my character level who is already lvl 9 (same as the rest of my party) rather than where have I progressed into the game. Stats do matter, but not when you're comparing apples to oranges. Then, giving both of them the same stats for comparison doesn't mean squat.
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The overall contribution IS the context. Sure you could be very specific and come up with the best formula to calculate numbers for each battle but you don't really need such detailed analysis to have a rough idea on whether a character is effective or not. I don't see how overall contribution to gauge a character's efficacy would even be remotely "completely irrelevant" tbh. Unless you're rest scumming, then you still gotta ration your wizard's casting resources (again, talking about PotD - almost no enounters are trivial). Priest buffs affects everyone equally sure, but would Eder benefit more of the additional 20% crit rate/+20 accuracy or my rogue? Like I said, my ranged rougue can burst WITH sustainability. I can go through numerous fights with only per encounter abilities and my rogue still deal massive damage. I have already mentioned the intangible weaknesses of melee rogues. By the time the melee rogues can safely engage enemies without getting aggro, my ranged rogue has been tearing enemies from the start. And what if they get engaged? Time would be wasted on disengaging with escape abilities. That's why overall contribution might actually be the best convenient metric - it includes long encounters, short encounters, hard encounters and easy encounters which covers every situation, every pros and cons for the various builds in every battle.
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Again, I don't see the point in giving all your companions the same equipment and/or stats bonuses? +2 int wouldn't mean as much to my rogue (or pretty much nothing) as compared to giving it to a spellcaster. A unique weapon would be more effective for a rogue with relevant talents (Marksman, WF etc.) than a wizard without those talents. Not to sound like a broken record but Eder has the best damn gear of the party on top of having WF with his main and secondary weapons, but that doesn't mean anything because he's a tank not a dps (while still boasting an impressive 66 accuracy). My rogue's efficacy has only been improving over time unlike what you described yours to be. You told me your truth and I showed you mine. I don't see counting overkill damage as worthless. If my rogue happen to roll a crit, he crits. It's as simple that that. A lucky roll of dice doesn't mean my damage is not legitimate - that don't make sense. You're just saying that because the mechanic doesn't favor you. If wizards don't have spell restrictions I doubt you'd still be singing the same tune. If the game doesn't agree with overkill damage, then a talent like Bloody Slaughter wouldn't exist now would it? I didn't say you think they were "worthless". Also, I'm not sure if you're playing PotD or not but there is no such thing as overkill. Every damage counts. AOE damage is nice sure, but I'd take AOE debuff over damage any day. There are very few instances where I can use Fan of Flames and Fireball just isn't at good as Expose Vul (I should note that I'm playing with FF on). At lvl 9, Aloth can use lvl 3 spells 5 times. If you had to pick 5 Expose Vul vs 5 Fireballs for 5 different battles - which would you pick? AOE damage from spells is direct and easily discerned. Additional indirect damage from debuffs that the WHOLE party can generate is a lot harder to determine. I haven't picked up my Cipher so I couldn't give a comparison, but the class could very well be more effective than my rogue. I would say now that Wizards with their number of spells restrictions simply don't have the sustainability of a ranged rogue, not to mention a good chunk of those spell resources are used to cast debuffs (at least for me). Sure other classes can be a ranged weapon user as well, but are you gonna pick Marksman, Gunner and WF for their talents? Do they have passive sneak attacks, additional crit rate and naturally high base accuracy? Guess not.
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I'd argue that stats IS the only context that matters. The whole melee rogue schtick that has been theorycrafted far too many times with NO context. Why? Because it is what happens in the field that counts. Intangible weaknesses of the melee rogue like not being able to burst down key ranged targets immediately or having to kite around resulting in a loss of dps, can only be translated from in-game stats as overall contribution. "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." If you want to talk about gear optimization, I have already stated that I have average gear having only progressed so far. In fact, Eder has the best equipment but there's no point comparing because each character serves a different role. As for attributes optimization, sure I'm min/maxed but I still have 3 CON so I have my own set of challenges. If you want to compare with melee rogues or nukers, I say bring out their stats. I'm not saying my build or ranged rogues destroy everyone else but they are certainly not as terrible as the last few pages have made them out to be. As a final note, I would say only ranged rogues (maybe rangers too) are the only sustained burst in the game, having the best of both worlds. Why do I say sustained? Priest buffs. They'd still be dishing out fantastic damage even after nukers have used up their spells, sustaining dps not only for individual fights, and also being able to handle more fights before the need to rest.
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Not sure why the ranged rogue is getting so much hate. This is my first playthrough and my main is wrecking pretty much everyone on PotD (supported by priest buffs on harder encounters) and I only have average gear. I'm barely into Act 2 and lvl 8 for Endless Paths (which I think is maybe 50% of the game?) - these are my stats so far: Note that I just completed Raedric's Hold the sneaky way through clearing the dungeons and only dropping a handful of his guards. I'd be racking up a lot more damage if I went ahead and took everyone out. Also, disregard the highest single target damage as it doesn't represent the kind of damage I deal on average - I had just gotten Finishing Blow at lvl 9 and planned on using all my per rest skills before I rested for the last couple of fights. The only one time I use it was a critical sneak attack hence the number.
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Necessary for my rogue - I can hit 120 accuracy with his buffs and I'm still lvl 9
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Actually this trick is still viable in combat. It's not uncommon for targets to be swtiched around the place after the target has been killed. If you want to make sure that your PC has the buff for every shot, then this is for you
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I don't have more than one marking weapon at this point but I wonder if two marking stacks for one ally if they stand on each side of the intended ally?
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Ahh, you're right. My bad, that's probably what happened. Mods can close this thread now (:
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Yes it's unfortunate ): @illathid: Unfortunately, I wasn't offered the Winds of Steel quest for siding with the Doemenels but yes, this issue shouldn't occur with any weapon that doesn't require reloading
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I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I realised the marking accuracy bonus on applies when the weapon user is actually attacking the target (sword icon while in battle) but doesn't activate while the user is reloading (tested after I got my St. Garam's). Since I'm using a pure ranged Rogue, I want him to have the accuracy buff for every shot he takes. After some testing, I figured out that you can do this by canceling the attack of the weapon user with marking effect after the shot of your intended ally (to have the marking buff) has landed on the target. This means that as long as the weapon user has the sword icon, any attacks that landed on the target will have the accuracy buff. If you cancel the weapon user's attack animation too soon before the projectile or melee swing landed on the target, the buff would not be applied. Furthermore, it's easier for the St.Garam as the shooting animation takes a long time (and that means a longer sword icon time), giving you a longer window and less room for error. Alternatively, you can always pause the game after the projectile or swing has been triggered, then using the marking weapon user to attack to activate sword icon status. This means however, that the marking weapon user won't be doing any damage while giving the buff (and also a lot more micro), so you gotta decide which is more important. I personally want my rogue to land his crits a lot more so accuracy is more important than damage from another slow firing weapon. Kana would be the ideal candidate for the marking weapon as he doesn't have to cast spells at every turn. I hope you guys enjoy this trick (:
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Not to mention that damage has a range at the end of the day, so that means there are times where the crossbow can out-damage an arbalest - it's just that the arbalest has a higher chance of dealing more damage, albeit not consistently
