Madscientist

OK, so far I would like to use: - melee class + priest of wael or illusionist: A melee char uses protection spells like mirror image so its harder to hit him. Could also use a few other spells to debuff or damage enemies, but mainly its a well protected melee attacker. If there was an invisibility spell, rogues with backstab would be happy. - melee class + skald: passively damaging enemies or buffing party with chants while attacking in melee. Can use some AoE CC spells if needed, else just take the special attacks of your melee class. - Any combination of fighter, monk, paladin and chanter to get a char who is tanky and damaging at the same time without depending on spells. Otherwise I would use a single class char, because several subclasses are kind of a multi class by themselves.

OK, I will write down what I think about each class and what I think about multi classing them. I am not an expert builder like Boeroer, but I have collected tons of RPGs. Barbarian Corpse Eater - Targets unconscious enemies to devour their flesh and gain power. Powers cost more to use. ( sorry, I do not understand this) Berserker - Has a more powerful Frenzy, but attacks can damage friends as well as foes while Frenzied. (Will be the best chioce if you want to play solo with a barbarien, I would not take it in a party) Mage Slayer - Gains spell resistance and can disrupt enemy spells, but cannot use potions or scrolls and beneficial spells have shorter durations. (Too many downsides. A normal barbarian who is good in interrupting should be enough to annoy casters (and all other enemies). I guess there is no creature that is immun to interrupt) Regarding multi classing, it depends on what works together with carnage and what not. Chanter Beckoner - Summoning invocations are cheaper and summon more creatures, but the creatures are weaker. (No comment, I have to see how many summons we have and how strong they are.) Skald - Offensive invocations are cheaper and melee crits grant phrases, but all other invocations are more expensive. (Seems great for multi classing with high acc melee chars. Like a chanter/rogue with dragon trashed on who uses those cone attacks to knockdown enemies in front of him for easier death attacks) Troubadour - Phrase linger is 50% longer, Brisk Recitation as a modal that increases the rate of phrase elapses, but shortens linger. All invocations are more expensive. (For players who like a more passive char. Maybe good in combination with a class that uses mostly auto attacks, like a barbarian that does lots of active and passive AoE) As single class char, I would use a default chanter, I guess. Cipher I used my ciphers mostly as casters and I used weapon attacks (mostly ranged) only to refill focus. I reached max focus almost never. Ascendant - Powers and Soul Whip are more effective when used at Max Focus, but Focus drains quickly if left at Max for long. (Not a good choice for me. You have to attack all the time to reach max focus and you should not cast 2 spells in a row. ) Beguiler - Illusion powers are more powerful, but Soul Whip suffers when used against targets that are not vulnerable to Sneak Attack. (This can be good. You want to debuff enemies in any case, so the sneak attack condition will be there most of the time. I think this is the best choice for a single class and it may be good for multi classing too. Might be less good when soloing than with a party because more chars make it easier to produce debuffs.) Soul Blade - Offensive cipher that can dump Focus into a Soul Annihilation melee attack for extra Raw damage. Shred powers have reduced Focus cost. Lower Max Focus. (I used ciphers mostly as ranged casters. But this can be good in multi classing with a melee char. It might look good in combination with a rogue. First you debuff them, then you use your remaining focus for the finishing blow.) Druid Fury - Shift into storm blights and gain bonuses with elemental spells. Cannot cast Restoration spells. (I think this can be good if you want to be a nuker and you also have a healer in your party.) Lifegiver - Rejuvenation spells are cast with increased Power Level but cannot cast Summon spells. (Not my first choice. Summon elemental could be very helpful. If you have a party there are also other chars who can help you healing and solo you definitely want summons.) Shifter - Druid can shift to any animal form, once each, per combat and heals damage each time they shift back. Cannot cast spells while shifted. (Now this looks good. I mean, you can still cast long lasting spells before shifting. May be good in combination with monk (if mid level claws have higher damage than high level fists) or fighter (weapon specialisation unarmed) Fighter Black Jacket - Bonus weapon proficiency, reduced Recovery when switching weapon, but lacks Constant Recovery. (Not my best choice. Usually you do not use many different weapon types and the amount of weapon profiencies of a normal fighter should be enough.) Devoted - May only be proficient in a single weapon. Higher Penetration and crit damage with that weapon. Suffers Accuracy penalty when using other weapons. (Initially it may hinder you too much. At the start you have to use whatever weapon you may find. But if you find a very good weapon later this can be very good. Like a ranger/fighter once you find a ranged weapon with 2 damage types.) Unbroken - Bonuses to Engagement and Disengagement Attacks, but lower Stride. (Low movement speed seems to be a huge penalty. In combination with monk (movement abilities) or paladin this may become the ultimate tank.) Monk I liked Zahua in my party a lot and he was very useful. But I dislike that you have to get hit in order to use special attacks. But as somebody said correctly: "If you do not take damage, the battle is so easy that you do not need special attacks.) Helwalker - Begin all combats with Wounds, gain Might for every Wound. Wounds require more damage to acquire. (I disliked that you have to get hit to use abilities and I hate to get increased damage even more. I do not think I will ever use this.) Nalpazca - Drug effects last longer and Wound cap is increased while under the effects of drugs. Penalties while not under the effect of drugs. (No comment, I did never use drugs.) Shattered Pillar - Gain Wounds by inflicting damage with melee weapons (fists or otherwise). Lower Max Wound cap, does not gain Wounds from receiving damage. (When using a monk, this might become my first choice. This looks very good if you combine the monksterlasher build with a barbarian. With carnage you create many hits, creating wounds fast. Thanks to the wounds enemies will take lost of additional elemental damage. Thanks to AoE interrupt you will not get hit a lot, so you would not gain many wounds by taking damage anyway. Add barbaric retaliation and heart of fury to the mix.) Paladin Bleak Walkers - Flames of Devotion (Remember Rakhan Field) generates black flames and does Corrode damage. Healing given and received is reduced. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Eothas, Berath, or Skaen. (Less healing sounds bad. Not the best choice for me.) Darcozzi Paladini - Lay on Hands (Flames of Darcozzi Palace) creates a flame shield around the paladin. Lower Zeal power. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, or Skaen. (No comment, never used them in PoE) Goldpact Knights - Sworn Enemy (Gilded Enmity) creates protective gold armor on the paladin. Cannot learn Zealous Auras. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Magran or Wael. (Nothing fo me. Passive auras are a fundamental part of paladins, at least for me.) Kind Wayfarers - Flames of Devotion (Sword and the Shepherd) heals nearby allies. Does less damage against enemies vulnerable to Sneak Attack. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, Wael, or Skaen. (This is bad. You want to debuff enemies in any case. If this char is weaker against enemies who met the conditions that are required for sneak attacks, he will be weak against most enemies most of the time. This is very sad because I wanted to play a kind wayfarer in PoE1 and continue with him in PoE2. He might change to be a shieldbearer in the second game.) Shieldbearers of St. Elcga - Lay on Hands (St. Elcga's Grace) prevents the target from being knocked out for a short duration. Cannot use Lay on Hands on self. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Skaen, Magran, or Wael. (Since you cannot have a paladin without order, this seems to be best choice for me. Just to be sure, "knocked out" means zero endurance, not prone.) Priest In PoE priest were very powerful. Now each priest will lose one spell school and unlike a wizard you cannot have a generalist caster. Until I know which priest spell belongs to what category, it is hard to tell which one is best. Priests of wael may be good in combination with physical chars who like to buff themselves, otherwise I would use single class priest. Berath - Can learn Decay spells from the druid list, cannot learn Condemnation spells. - Cannot multiclass with Bleak Walker, Kind Wayfarer, or Darcozzi paladins. Eothas - Can learn Elemental spells from the druid list, cannot learn Protection spells. - Cannot multiclass with Bleak Walker paladins. Magran - Can learn Fire spells from the wizard list, cannot learn Restoration spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbearer, Kind Wayfarer, Goldpact, or Darcozzi paladins. Skaen - Can learn rogue offensive abilities as priest spells, cannot learn Inspiration spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbearer, Bleak Walker, Kind Wayfarer, or Darcozzi paladins. Wael - Can learn Illusion spells from the wizard list, cannot learn Punishment spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbeaer, Kind Wayfarer, or Goldpact paladins. Ranger I hope that multi classing means that a lv20 char will have a lv20 pet with less abilities/talents than a pure ranger. If he has a lv 15 pet, multi classing will be useless. Ghost Heart - Animal companion must be summoned as a spirit. They are not affected by Bonded Grief and the companion is more powerful, but the summon is limited duration. (I like this. The usefulnes depends on the lengh of the summoning vs the lengh of the battle.) Sharpshooter - Bonuses to Penetration and Accuracy at range, but slower actions and lower Deflection. (Looks interesting, especially if you combine it with a devoted fighter and a wood elf.) Stalker - Stalker and companion gain bonuses to Deflection and Armor Rating when close to each other, suffer Bonded Grief when too far apart. (May be interesting for some players, but I will not take it.) I like a combination of ranger and rogue. Pet causes flanked for sneak attack, deep wounds causes dot so the pet does more damage. Even more useful if death attack works together with twinned arrow. Otherwise I would prefer single class rangers, so you have a very powerful pet that acts as a permanent full party member. Rogue The top level abilities of rogues after they get deathblows (shadow step, feign death) were not ultimately impressive, so I guess rogues will be good for multi classing. Assassin - From stealth or invisibility, weapon attacks have bonus damage, Penetration, and Accuracy. All incoming damage is increased. (On its own it feels a little too fragile. May be very interesting in combination with protection spells like a priest of wael or an illusionist wizard. Especially if death attacks will still work with spells (but I consider this to be a bug)). Streetfighter - Sneak Attack and crit damage increases when Flanked or Bloodied (<50% Health). Recovery is slower when neither Flanked nor Bloodied. (Sorry, I dislike to be flanked and I also dislike chars whos special things work only if they have und X health. I prefer to be at full health all the time. Some people may like this, but not me.) Trickster - Gains access to Illusion spells from the wizard list. Sneak Attack deals less damage. (Less sneak attack damage is bad for a rogue. I would prefer a rogue/Illusionist over a rogue with lower damage. I would even prefer a default rogue over this, because you can get most effects via scrolls, potions or another char in your party. Wizard If wizards really lose two spell schools and they get more recovery on spells that are not from their shool, I will definitely use a single class generalist over a single class specialist. Specialist may be usefull in combination with other classes though. It might be interesting to play the game with 5 single class wizards, each of them specialized in a different school. Conjurer - Conjuration spells are more powerful, cannot cast Evocation or Illusion spells. (May be useful in combination with a devoted fighter. Having an empowered citadels lance may be nice.) Enchanter - Enchantment spells are more powerful, cannot cast Illusion or Transmutation spells. Evoker - Evocation spells are more powerful, cannot cast Transmutation or Conjuration spells. Illusionist - Illusion spells are more powerful, cannot cast Conjuration or Enchanting spells. (May be useful in combination with melee chars who want more protection.) Transmuter - Transmutation spells are more powerful, cannot cast Enchantment or Evocation spells.

I like this new system a lot . So now mages and priests can or even must (priest) specialize in one type of magic but they cannot use spells of another type. I have played PoE a few times, but I still do not remember each spell and what category it may have. Looks like the game will have a super large manual with tons of lists and tables. The old games had this (BG1+2, Realms of Arcadia, . . .) and I did read all of this (after my first attempt without reading where I created terreble chars and had ne idea what I was doing) and this is fine for me. I hope this complexity does not scare away new players. I have two other hopes: - Somebody will make a wiki for this. Even if the game comes with a huge manual full of lists and tables there will be many open questions. Like which ability works in combination with what other abilities (carnage, sneak attack, . . .) - There will be a build maker, like the one for NWN2. In PoE1 I have a save with a lv 16char in an inn and before I start a new game, I create a lv15 hireling to see what abilities and talents can be taken at what level. PoE2 will be even more complex. It would be nice to create a char in another program and then publish this char and others can make comments. This would be better than the PoE class builds now in this forum.

I have posted the "Holy Warrior of Fire". I wanted to do it anyway, but this thread has encouraged me to do it now. My build seems quite similar to what you want to do. Why do you use a paladin with low int? The size of their auras and the size+duration of sacred immolation will profit from it. I would switch the values of int and con. But this is your char and you can do whatever you want. I am playing on hard too and it is so easy that almost any char can do it, especially when you use a full party.

Koamalu is a paladin from the deadfire. He always travels around in order to help other people. One day he killed some people who tried to throw somebody else into a vulcano. Unfortuanatly, sacryficing to the vulcano god was the most holy ritual on this island and for this blasphemy the whole tribe started to look for him in order to torture him slowly to death. Somehow he managed to escape to the dyrwood. In PoE 2 he will return to his old home, hoping that the fanatics do not look for him in the whole archipelago. HOLY WARRIOR OF FIRE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- difficulty: 3.06 hard with a full party -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- class: paladin (kind wayfarer) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- race: coastal aumaua ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- background: deadfire explorer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ stats: mig: 16 con: 10 dex: 10 per: 10 int: 16 res: 16 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- skills: split between lore and survival --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- abilities and talents: lv1: flames of devotion lv2: strange mercy lv3: zealous focus lv4: sword and shepard lv5: sworn enemy lv6: runners wounding shot lv7: lay on hands lv8: weapon focus soldier lv9: inspiring triumph lv10: scion of flames lv11: healing chain lv12: 2h style lv13: sacred immolation lv14: apprentice sneak attack or savage attack lv15: abjuration lv16: intense flames ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- weapon: Hours of St. Rumbalt or Tidefall, Redeemer against vessels boots: shoed in faith, though this might only lead to overheal; viettros formal footware at the end of the game (dex+4, lore +3) head: maegfolk skull (mig +4) armor: ryonas breastplate (int+3) neck: liliths shawl (per +3) belt: blunting belt rings: ring of protection, ring of deflection hands: forgemasters gloves (firebrand is the perfect weapon for him), siegebreaker gauntlets at the end of the game (res +4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I wanted to make a paladin who does some damage and heals the party by the way. Race and background are for role playing. I want to solve quests peacefully if possible. Therefore I took high int, res and lore to have more options in conversations. Since BG2 we know, that a greatsword is the ultimate weapon for paladins. I am not sure if tidefall or st. rumbalt is better against non vessels. Since paladins have several fire related abilities (flames of devotion, sacred immolation), I chose to make the whole build around fire (and healing). So I will give him red skin. RP wise, fire godlike (if you focus on fire) or moon godlike (if you focus on healing) are also nice, but I like to have a helmet. I am still not an expert about equipment. I will use items that boost int, res and lore for better talking. If you care less about talking and want a better fighter, take points from res and put them elsewhere. The abilities and talents are quite clear, only the order in which I take the talents is not so sure and if I take apprentice sneak attack or savage attack. I took runners wounding shot so I do not waste a FoD as alpha strike. Every time you kill an enemy or you use FoD you will heal your whole party ( I am not sure if strange mercy and sword and shepard heal the paladin himself). They will also get a defense bonus if you kill somebody. question: What are the max values for stats or skills that are checked in conversations or scripted events? In this case I ask especially about int, res, lore and survival.

First of all, I think you mean DoS2, because Divinity2 is a completely different game (single char action RPG). Second, most fight will be over in a few turns. Either you CC and overpower the enemies before they can act, or the enemy finishes you fast. If you really need a lot of time to beat enemies then you do something wrong. The larian forums are full of people who say that the game is too easy because they destroy every enemy in 2 turns. (by turn I mean the period in which every char in this battle acts once). It is like in this forum, where several people complain that PotD is too easy. Anyway, there is no battle in any divinity game that last an hour. ---------------------------------------------------------- I will buy both games in any case. Well, actually I already did because I am a backer of both games. PS: To all people who say that you cannot compare those two games: I can compare everything with everything else. To prove this, I will compare you (the other forum members) with the moon: The moon is bigger, heavier and older than you. If anyone of you is several thousands kilometers large, over 4 billion years old and also able to use a computer please contact me. This may be the start of an interesting friendship.

If the OP is right (and I think he is), then I am doomed because I will be a beta tester I am a completeonist. When I play a game for the first time, I try look into every corner and try to find out everything myself. Usually I miss a lot of things. If the game is so good that I want to play it again, I look into a guide and the second time I try to find absolutely everything. One of the few games I finished more often was arcanum. The first time I just finished it without help and missed tons of things. The second time I looked into a guide and tried to solve every quest in the best possible way. I was a little bit sad that not all of my results were mentioned in the ending slides. For the third time I used an orc with low int and chose the evil path and tried to get the worst ending for all quests. Low int lets you miss several quests, but the funny dialogues where absolutely great.

I have played the alpha of DoS2 too, and I think this early version was already much better than many full games at release. And the official launch adds tons of other things too. My main problem was that the game goes too crazy with environmental effects. Even in small battles the whole map will be filled with poison, fire, ice or electricity. After the battle, it takes longer to remove these effects ( so I can walk around again) than the battle itself. I think both games are very similar in some way. Both are big games where both the first and the second part where founded through crowdfunding. The first part of each game has been build from scratch. For PoE, the game system (stats, dice rolls, classes, . . .) and setting was completely new. For DoS, there were games in this universe before, but it was the first party and turn based game they created. The first parts of both games were very good and successful. If this means that even the beta of PoE2 will be better than most other games, I will be very happy. So far, it looks very good. The devs learned a lot over time from PoE ( AI and balancing improved a lot, the expansions had better encounter design than the original game) and they can use this for PoE2. They also added lots of fun things: multi classing, a more open world, . . .

I think it is supposed to do " + 100% melee damage, +100% ranged damage" They forgot the word "melee" and now it works for all damage. According to your image, the question is if it makes 100% or 200% ranged damage. Well, only the devs know what is intended and what not. Or they don´t know it too and just declare it to be intended that way

This is a quote from Boeroer (the best build builder around): " It's not only Prestidigitator's Missiles - it's like that with all damaging abilites (including spells) that are not bound to weapon usage: they all don't work with Sneak Attack, but with Deathblows. Apprentice's Sneak Attack and Sneak Attack don't work with any spell-like ability, only with weapon attacks. Deathblows works with every damaging effect. Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's intended, I don't know. " I would definitely think that this is a bug, so I post it in this part of the forum too.

Prestidigitator's Missiles working with deathblows but not working with sneak attack sounds like a bug to mee. I thought that sneak attacks apply only to attacks with weapons, not for spells. For a rogue, the bow with stunn on crit seems perfect. For a ranger, the best weapon is stormcaller. With twin arrows and the ability that lets you hit 2 targets at once (name forgotten) you have an AoE stunn often. Until you get it, persistence is great because the dot increases the damage of your pet.

Thanks for reminding me about the links of MaxQuest. They show that when dual wielding durganized weapons: - with 2 weapons without speed mod, you can reach pasive (without potions or abilities) zero recovery only without vulnerable attack and if you have the gauntlets of swift action. You will have zero recovery if you apply an effect (e.g. frenzy or potion), then you can even have vulnerable attack on and still have zero recovery. - If you use 2 weapons that have both the speed mod and you have the gauntlets of swift action, you will have passive zero recovery even with vulnerable attack on. AFAIK, there are no weapons that have speed mod and are anihilating and/or prone/stunn on crit at the same time. This means I can skip vulnerable attack. The program also shows that this char attacks twice as fast as a dual wielder with 10dex and full recovery, even if you do not have the gauntlets and you do not use potions or abilities (you still have a very small recovery) ------------------- The other link of MaxQuest shows, that reckless assault and shadow step are exclusive. I guess when shadow step expires, reckless assault will not turn on automatically. This means I will not take shadow step, because you will lose acc if you do and it is easy to forget to turn on reckless assault again. So at lv15 it means feign death (to save yourself and gain more backstabs) or another full attack skill

Sorry, I did just look into the wiki and used the basic damage formula [ dmg = weapon base dmg * (1 + sum of all mods) ] and thought what damage modifiers you would likely have. For the DPS, I assumed 0% and 50% attack speed bonus, so I multiplied the damage number of the dex build with 3 and the one of the mig build with 2 ( when the dex char makes 3 attacks, the mig char makes 2 attacks in the same time). I do not know the formula that calculates recovery cut. All these data are only true if the chars I compare have the same recovery. Thats why I cannot compare the DPS of the dual wielder with the 2h weapon. As I have written, this calculation does not include several other damage modifiers and the use of abilities or buffs. I did this in 30 minutes with a sheet of paper and a calculator. This is definitely not a perfect simulation. But as a first approximation it is useful to see if a concept makes sense and how it is compared to some alternatives. I know it is unrealistic to assume that a char has 27dex and 10mig or vice versa, but it makes calculation easier. What have I leearned from this: The build I have posted will often do over 70 damage per hit without the use of buffs or special abilities, just by using a regular attack. And it attacks very fast. This is enough for me to say: A dual wielding rogue with low mig and high dex is viable and I will not be completely depressed when I try this and find out that the damage is pathetic. Since I want to play on hard with a full party (not PotD) this char will be good enough to face all challenges. It is not the best char posible (even if you look only at melee rogues), but it is definitely good enough.

OK, after all this dicussions I made a test and tried to "simulate" the expected damage with and without might for resolution (sabre) and St. Rumbalt (greatsword). The data are taken from the wiki, so they may be wrong. I have used deathblows (100%), reckless assault (20%), anihilating crit (100%), superb weapon (45%), 50% might bonus, sabre (20%), 2h style (15%) and a 30%lash (=lash + talent). The sabre has a base damage of 11 - 16, I took the average 13,5. The greatsword has a base damage of 14 - 20, I took the average of 17. The numbers are rounded and I do not include all bonusses that you might have in the game, so these data are just a first guess. resolution without might bonus: 51,975 + 15,6 = 67,575 (slash damage + 30% lash damage = total) resolution with might bonus: 58,725 + 17,6 = 76,325 (about 13% more damage per hit) St. Rumbalt without might bonus: 64,6 + 19,4 = 84 St. Rumbalt with might bonus: 73,1 + 21,9 = 95 (about 13% more damage per hit) The damage per hit of the 2h weapon is about 25% higher than the sabre! Please note that St. Rumbalt is even better than this number because of: - prone on crit, which allows sneak attacks, reduces the enemies deflection and the enemy cannot attack you - The weapon uses the best of 2 damage types, no need to change the weapon. Sorry, but I am not a math expert, so I cannot put a number to those advantages. like prone on crit is worth X points of damage per hit. My calculation does not include increased crit multiplier (durgan steel and/or quest talent), buffs (e.g. +10% from priest bless spell) or any other effect (e.g. equipment) that might increase your damage. It does not include special attacks or backstab because they can only be used a few times in combat. I assume a crit, because this char will crit a lot. So I cannot put a number on things increasing acc or that convert hit to crit. If you enchant the weapon better than superb, add other damage bonusses and perform special attacks, it will be in favour of the 2h weapon, because the effect is based on your base damage. 2h Weapons are better against enemies with high DR and those are the importent ones, because nobody cares how much overkill damage you do to a wolf. Your damage will often be higher than the numbers above. The damage bonus of St. Rumbalt over a sabre will be more than 25% in most cases. For the numbers above, I have also tested, when the DPS of the mig rogue is higher than the DPS of the dex rogue. The mig rougue becomes better when the enemy has an DR of 38 or higher. I have not played the game on PotD, so I do not know the highest DR of enemies in this game. Anything that increases your damage will increase the DR value where mig becomes better (It was 22DR in my first guess. Now I tried to use more realistic conditions when fighting a dragon and it is 38DR. Since I have not included all possible sources of damage it will usually be even higher.) summary: - The damage bonus for a rogue with a 50% mig bonus is about 13-15% of damaga per hit compared to a rogue without this bonus. - A rogue with very high dex and little might will almost always have a higher DPS than a rogue with high mig and little dex. - A 2h weapon will do at least 25% more damage per hit than a dual wielder. Most of the time the bonus will be even higher, but it is hard to put a number on it. - This is mostly guessing: A char with St. Rumbalt who does everything to increase his speed (durgan steel, gloves, potion, only cloth armor, . . .) will not only have a much higher damage per hit, but also the same or even higher DPS than the best dual wielder. While a dual wielding rogue with max dex may not have the ultimate damage per hit or DPS that is possible in this game, his damage will definitely be very high compared to most other chars, at least against a single target. The dual wielder has it much easier to reach low or even zero recovery. High dex and low recovery is also useful when you use items, scrolls or other things.

A char with 50% speed bonus through dex will always do 3 attacks while a char with 10dex will have 2 attacks in the same time. It does not matter if you have zero recovery, full recovery or something in between. This means the ratio between the dex rogue and the mig rogue should stay the same, independent of recovery. Its just that less recovery increases your DPS but not your damage per hit. This is true for all chars. Sorry, I have not done the calculation for vulnerable attack. I also do not have the formula that determines the recovery cut. So I do not know what bonusses are nessescary to reach zero recovery. If you really want to know, you should ask MaxQuest.

Each point of dex will increase attack speed by 3%. Lets compare a char with 20 base dex and 10 base mig with a char with 20 base might and 10 base dex (base means the value at character creation). Through equipment and buffs we raise the main stat to 27 ( =51% bonus, I will calculate with 50%). A char with 27dex and no recovery will have 3 attacks, while a char with no recovery and 10 dex will have 2 attacks in the same time. Thats a DPS difference of 50% the attack speed difference. A char with 27mig would also deal 50% more damage than a char with 10mig, if mig was the only thing that influences your damage. But mig adds 50% to weapon base damage while dex increases the speed of your attacks by 50%. Rogues have lots of other modifiers to base damage. As an example, I will compare two rogues who use deathblow (100%), reckless assault (20%) and a critical hit with an anihilating weapon (100%). One of them has 50% dex bonus and no mig bonus and the other one has 50%mig bonus and no dex bonus. Base damage = 10. dex: 10 * ( 1 + 1 + 0.2 + 1) = 32 damage per hit mig: 10 * ( 1 + 1 + 0,2 + 1 + 0,5) = 37 damage per hit The mig rogue does 15,625% more damage per hit than the dex rogue. This does not include an elemental lash or weapon enchantment. This would reduce the advantage of the mig rogue further. The mig rogue does get a bonus damage to deep wounds by the way. This is the damage per hit, but now compare DPS. Once again, in the time where the mig rogue makes 2 attacks, the dex rogue attacks 3 times. dex: 3 * 32 = 96 mig: 2 * 37 = 74 The DPS of the dex rogue are 29,73% higher than the DPS of the mig rogue. summary: The mig rogue has a higher damage per hit, the dex rogue will cause more damage in a certain time. Of course, having both high dex and mig would be optimal. But you need some per to hit thigs and you should not drop con and res too much, because dead chars deal no damage. If you are obsessed with math you can count in all the damage modifiers, buffs and equipment you can get and calculate the optimal values for dex, mig and per to achieve both, max damage per hit and max DPS. I skipped the math and chose dex. EDIT: This calculation is done without DR. Enemies with DR will make the mig rogue more powerful. When I have time, I could look at how much DR the mig rogue overtakes the dex rogue. EDIT2: In my example, when the enemy has more than 22DR, the mig rogue has a higher DPS than the dex rogue. EDIT3: The sentence "thats a DPS difference of 50%" is false. I have corrected it. EDIT4: Sorry, an elemental lash profits from might. I think it has more benefit to the mig rogue than to the dex rogue, especially with DR.

I want to create a rogue who goes for full offense, moves and attacks as fast as possible and does lots of damage. I want to thank a lot of people who gave me some advice for this, especially Boeroer and MaxQuest. ================================== The fast assassin ================================= diffuculty: hard version 3.06 ( I tried to optimize a lot, so it should work for PotD too) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- solo: not intended, should be part of a full party --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- class: rogue --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- race: pale elf (elf for dex and per, pale because he is a cold killer) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- background: a raider from the deadfire --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- stats: mig: 11 con: 10 dex: 20 per: 19 int: 08 res: 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- skills: max stealth, spend the remaining points however you like, maybe survival bonusses --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- abilities and talents: v1: crippling strike lv2: backstab lv3: reckless assault lv4: two weapon style lv5: deep wounds lv6: weapon focus ruffian lv7: dirty fighting lv8: outlanders frenzy lv9: withering strike (most damage), blinding strike (best debuff) or escape lv 10: vicious fighting lv11: deathblows lv12: spirit of decay lv13: sap lv14: fast runner lv15: shadow step, feign death or something else you did not take at lv 9 lv16: vulnerable attack --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- items: weapon: resolution+purgatory, bittercut+vent pick as alternative for slash resistent foes boots: boots of speed or viettros formal footware (dex+4) if you have other sources of movement speed head: maegfolc skull (mig+4) armor: something light so you attack fast, maybe Gwisk Glas (robe with second chance) neck: liliths shawl (per+3) belt: ??? rings: ring of thorns (dex+3), ring of deflection, ring of protection hand: gloves of swift action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want a rogue who attacks as fast as possible and who does lots of damage this way. about stats: Dex is the only thing that reduces the duration of everything (attack, recovery, reload). Even if you cut the recovery completely (what I intend to do), dex will still increase your attack speed. By maxing out dex, this chas attacks as fast as possible in this game (when he uses fast weapons, but I use sabres for max damage). Why also max per? rogues have a high base acc. What does a char with high acc need? EVEN MORE ACC! Unless your acc is 100 points higher than the enemy defense, more acc means more damage. If you can remove misses and grazes and rogues can covert hit to crit, you will crit a lot. This is especially good with anihilating weapons (+50%crit damage). High per means also high interrupt. crit gives also +25 interrupt. When you attack fast with high per, the enemy has less chances to interrupt you while you will interrupt the enemy a lot. Of course this is only true for the enemy you attack. Beware of attacks by other enemies, you cannot take many hits and your defense is low. Why so little might? For most classes, might is the main boost to damage. Rogues have several other factors that will increase their damage (sneak/death attack, backstab, reckless assault, deep wounds (this profits from might)). Just to be sure, assuming they use the same weapon rogues get as much damage bonus from might as any other class and more might is always good. Its just that gave dex and per a higher priority for this char because I wanted fast attacks with lots of crits. Why so little int? This rogue has no AoE attacks, so it influences only the duration of debuffs. If you kill the enemy before the debuff runs out, it lasts long enough. He is part of a party, so other party members can and should CC enemies too. Con and res should not be dropped too much, because you need to be alive in order to deal damage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- abilities and talents: I tried to focus on things that increase your damage and acc. Vulnerable attack comes late because it slows you down and this build is about speed. But at the end of the game you might have zero recovery even with vulnerable attack. Then you should turn it on to do more damage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- weapons: I choose those sabres for max damage and for the style ( I am a pirate ;-). Good alternatives are any weapons that cause prone or stunn on crit (you crit a lot) or that are anihilating. For example We Toki (axe with prone on crit, all axes are anihilating) or Godanshuntyr (hammer, stunn on crit, +1 mig, high interrupt, 2 damage types). You could also go for 2h weapons (change weapon style talent and skip vulnerable attack). You can do it the save way and use tall grass (long range weapon with prone on crit). Or you take Hours of st. Rumbalt as the ultimate weapon (annihilating, prone on crit, 2 damage types, you gett it with acc enchantment). With a 2h weapon, the damage per hit will be higher. But it is much harder to get zero recovery. If you manage to get zero (or at least very low) recovery with St. Rumbalt, your damage will be much larger than with dual sabres because all the damage modifiers (remember, rogues have a lot of them) are based on base damage. However, speed was my main factor for this build, so I stick with dual wielding. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not an expert for equipment, so I chose the one that gives the highest stat bonusses. Your armor should not be too heavy, because the goal is zero recovery. In the best case you reach zero recovery without the use of spells or potions even when vulnerable attack is on. Durganise your weapons and armor, which any char should do anyway. Add a corrosive lash to your weapon. I chose corrosive because of bittercut as alternative weapon. If you do not use sabres, you can chose whatever element you like. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- how to play: Enter stealth before combat. Your first two normal attacks will be a backstab them. Attack enemies who are engaged by your tank or who stand alone. You will likely die if you get surrounded. Fast movement helps you because if you spend less time walking, you have more time to do damage. Your party should help you. If they CC the enemy, the enemy cannot kill you and you have no problem to use death attacks, which should kill enemies really fast before CC runs out. Use your full attack skills (crippling, blinding, withering strike) anyway, they have a damage bonus and there is no recovery between them (when dual wielding, a full attack uses both weapons). Every time I play I give each char a ranged weapon as secondary weapon. It can be better to do less damage from a save position than to make no damage because you are dead. Sometimes enemies stand in large AoE damage or your tank(s) manages to block the enemies path completely. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have any comments, please post them I am happy for every advice I can get.

OK, so you say backstab works best with a reach weapon. I want to use a rogue who is dual wielding sabres because they do most damage (full attacks, easier to get zero recovery) and I like that style. Backstab would be perfect RP wise, but my char needs to survive in order to deal damage. It will take some time until I play POE again (just finished Fallout:NV and started Legent of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel. Even if I play I will do it on hard with a full group and I play really slow. I will create an "official" build soon and you PotD freaks can tell me if this makes sense.

Thanks So a good approach would be that the rogue sneaks behind the enemy group. Than your tank attacks the group and melee enemies run to him. Now the rogue starts to attack casters and ranged enemies from behind. Would that work? Else your rogue has to attack with ranged weapons until the tank has engaged most enemies and the rogue attacks them from behind (flanked) and attacks the tanks target with sneak/death attacks (your group has enough time to apply a second status effect on the enemy). Thie would make backstab completely useless. How is the enemy AI now? Will they attack the party member with the lowest defense or the one that does most damage to them? If they attack the one with the lowest defense, a tank is useless and they will go after my rogue or my casters. If they attack the one who does most damage, my rogue has a chance to be useful because he attacks one enemy after the other. I have finished the game a few times (on normal or hard, not PotD) and so far I never had a rogue in my party. They are focused on single target damage but most difficult fights have a lot of enemies. I want to use a rogue next time (on hard) but I do not know how to use them. I could simply use a ranged weapon, but I want to have a dual wielding assassin just because I like that style. I had such a char as main char in DA:O, but POE has no aggro mechanic so its harder to make sure that the enemies do not attack me.

I have just created an assassin rogue build. Very high sigle target damage, but unable to take many hits. Can you have boots of speed, sneak to a group of enemies, kill one of them with backstab, run away and then repeat this? Of course you need to have enough safe space to run away. Do boots of speed (or any other walking speed modifier) have any effect on your speed while sneaking?

Each item that can be enchanted has a fixed number of enchantment points. In order to apply the best enchantment, you have to beat some bosses late in the game. So lets say you want to upgrade a weapon to superb (6 enchantment points needed): - Does it mean you got to have 6 free points when you do the enchantment? - Can you upgrade it to exceptional (4 points) and have 2 free points left and then you can upgrade to superb? - Can you have an exceptional weapon with 4 free points, then you change the enchantment to fine (2points, 6 free points) and change then to superb? - Can you remove an enchantment completely? If you must have X free points (6 in my example) in the moment you enchant, it means when you find a useful weapon with some unique abilities (e.g. prone on crit), you have to keep it in a "bad" state until the end of the game, when you can finally enchant it to the best level.

Ok, if I skip vulnerable attack, I had problems to find useful talents. Maybe some defensive or utility things. About full attacks: I must have reckless assault and deathblows ASAP and I want to keep deep wounds. Sap is not a full attack, but stunn is very good. Fearsome strike can only be used once per rest, so I skip it. This leaves only vicious fighting and shadow step. Vicious fighting (+talent) give +20% hit to crit and I have 2 anihilating weapons. I am not sure if teleport + bonus damage for some seconds is better than one full attack.

Thanks again So with your new system it is still possible to get zero recovery (and even zero reloading time in theory), but it is harder to achieve than in the old system. In both systems each point of dex will always have the same usefulness. It speeds up your action cycle by 3%. If you have reduced the recovery time to zero, your action cycle consists only of the attack itself.

Thanks, you are the greatest updated char: pale elf with raider background from the deadfire, stats mig 11, con 10, dex 20, per 19, int 8, res 10. (I hate dumping stats. If you love full offence and max damage, you can put points from con, int or res to mig) lv1: crippling strike lv2: 2 weapon style lv3: reckless assault lv4: weapon focus ruffian lv5: deep wounds lv6: vulnerable attack lv7: dirty fighting lv8: outlanders frenzy lv9: withering strike (most damage), blinding strike (best debuff) or escape lv 10: vicious fighting lv11: deathblows lv12: backstab lv13: sap lv14: +20% elemental damage (for lashes added to your weapon) lv15: shadow step lv16: fast runner, so I can use the dex+ boots at the end of the game This looks better, though I am not 100% sure about the order of talents. For weapons I stick with resolution and purgatory, stilettos against slash resistent foes. End game alternatives to those sabres would be vent pick and the unlabored blade (a dagger, but its a universal weapon. should be no problem to create the damage to upgrade it.) Looking at this (rogue + deadfire + raider + 2 sabres) it would be very good as pirate. EDIT: I just realized that daggers do slash damage. So I have to use 2 stilettos if slash damage is bad.

Thanks so far. Two more questions: - With the rule set of POE1, lets assume you have 43,3 dex (attack, recovery and reload half as long) AND you have equipment that would make your recovery time half as long (if dex was zero). Would you have no recovery ( dex + equipment bonus added), 25% recovery (equipment halves the time that is determined by dex) or vice versa 25% (dex halves the time determined by equipment). - In your suggested system, speed modifiers still affect only recovery time. The difference to the old system is: In the old system X% speed meant X% of the base recovery time is cut and in the new system the +X% speed refers to the whole action cycle. Assuming dex still has a similar effect in POE2, how would dex influence the table above? Your new system is more consistent than the old one, but if dex still effects everything (including the duration of the attack itself) while all other things effect only recovery and reload, things may remain complicated.