Wynne

The vast majority of recent posts to this thread are making me happy. I think I need a group hug right about now... Eeeexcluding this one. Ya know what? I never said I had any proof. And since you don't have any more than I do, yet still insist your point of view is more valid, you kinda look like a jerk saying that. The point is, it can't be proven. Statistics are bull regardless, like Nielsen ratings, which have caused the premature death of many an awesome television show. There's not enough data to say for sure one way or the other. People buy games for each other all the time (I buy strategy games and RPGs for my dad on holidays, whereas he buys me first-person shooters, third-person horror and RPGs--if someone took note of us buying these games at a store, they'd get our tastes mixed up). But considering how popular RPGs are in the first place, and the fact that this particular genre caters to females far more than most games (nearly always providing the option to play the game as a woman, whereas in earlier years they did not--why the change, if not but for female outcry?), is that not enough for you to believe that female gamers exist and bring in sales? April from the Longest Journey... Kate from Syberia... these aren't exactly characters brought in so that you can watch their hindquarters jiggle. Heck, though I love her as a character, Kate is kind of horsefaced, and yet both of these games have earned enough clout to garner sequels. Why? Because men like horsefaced women? C'mon, are you going to tell me that a bunch of men played these games? Even though there's no nudity or skimpy outfits a la Lara Croft? (Yeah, just razzing there. But seriously, you HAVE to think there's an at least partially female audience for those games, and adventure is a genre very close to the heart of RPGs anyway.) Also, even if you still aren't convinced that there's enough of a margin now, you have to see that it's an inevitable progression--sort of like women's sports. The attitude began as "Oh, women don't like sports, they like to knit." Now you see where that has gone. As stupidity and bias in culture receded and more dads took the time to share the games they loved with their daughters, more women played games. And more and more until you have women in every sport in their own leagues--not quite on the same obsession level as male sports at this point, but it has changed and continues to expand. So, too, has the gaming industry... and it will continue to do so as attitudes and people change. Dads who care about their daughters can introduce them to whole new worlds, and end up doing them a lot of good in the long run. There's nothing I love so much as the gaming industry, but that could have easily not happened if I'd been born to different parents. My dad raised me on games. I started out with Duck Hunt and Mario, then the King's Quest series, getting my arse eaten off by a troll seventeen times per pixelated screen, and slowly moved to games like Daggerfall, Morrowind, Thief, System Shock, Fallout, Planescape, etc. As time passes, the world progresses. It will continue to do so. We're here. We're chick gamers. Get used to it--and learn to love it, because women who DON'T like games will only try to drag a guy away from the computer/console anyway, whereas a gamer will either play them with him or leave him the hell alone unless she's feeling randy, in which case if he's any kind of sensible person he'll hit the damn pause button and forget about games for a while. Better if the trend continues--better for everyone, both male and female.

I SWEAR, every time I thought of Kreia and Atton after the beginning of the game, I was thinking "when my character fills the husband role, Kreia will be filling the role of his mother-in-law..." Holy!... That is TOO PERFECT. I could DIE. In fact, I think I just did. Ow.

Now, there's a common baseless supposition given without any support in fact. Have you met everyone who's played KOTOR and seen all their respective parts for proof? Of course not. You're assuming, as far too many people love to do. People think the market is male, particularly because women who've been burned by the tirades of immature idiots often go genderless on forums. That doesn't mean it is male, either entirely or even just predominantly. All most of us want is to hang out with people who love the games we do, and instead, we get crap for having breasts--either insults or crude comments which are all too often not meant in fun. And if not that, we get treated like second-class citizens. So when you find a community that's mostly mature and level-headed, that understands the whole point of an RPG, even then you may be hesitant to speak your gender--or, if you're like me, you may not even realize people have mistaken you for a male. (I've had people call me Wayne. *shudder* What is up with that?) ...and Garrett and Sam Fisher both have severely nice asses and sexy voices. Why, if not for the benefit of the female audience? And why do so damned many RPGs give you the option to play as a female if so few women play? Actually, it's because the genre draws both. If anything, the point you are making is that women who play games need to be more vocal in order to break up the stereotype. Which I agree with. At this point, saying I'm a gamer often draws blank stares of pity or horror from either gender, or worse, the classic frozen smile of placation (this because they are not geeks). But I keep saying it, because every once in a while I'll see somebody's eyes light up when I mention something, and it's worth it to me. I don't care if the world views me as lame or weird, I'm going to admit it, and I only hope I can convince more girls to do the same. By the way, check out Beyond Good and Evil's non-Barbie-fied heroine, note how many people LOVED that game, and get an idea of how it can--and should--be done. The default-to-male thing is a relic of a different age; it's not indicative that the audience is 70-90% male. It's just, it has to be something, and it began as that, so most often it will be that.

Bull. Revan was good until the Dark side got to her. She was a war hero, battling the Mandalorians, a Jedi... Bastila really DID restore her wounded mind, unless of course in your game s/he became a Sith.

I SO DID THAT!!!!!!! *dies laughing* I SOOO DID THAT! Ohh, that's just classic... all your work is great, but that one got me more than anything else. And I too am a victim of the thousands of pointless visits to the ****pit, which is so ineptly named.

Playing NPCs: I liked this in KOTOR 2, but it all happened too soon. After the prologue when I finally got into the game, I didn't want to play T3 again so suddenly. And playing AS Atton, making dialogue choices... weird. Weird. Weird. Having to terrifiedly pit him against two Twilek assassin chicks--cool. Having to choose dialogue--weeeeeeeeird. Jedi Council: I like Dakari's ideas, actually. Seeing Disciple on it as Kreia predicted would be cool, as well as a Rakatan. Revan and the Exile's Gender/Alignment/Appearance: Should NEVER be defined by anyone other than the player. Better that they not be seen or heard from or known again at all. What would be nicer than anything, to me, is taking the best ideas from both and meshing them. Namely, making the third game truly about Revan and the Exile--where you create both characters and play them alternately, sort of like you played the party NPCs in KOTOR 2. The game could do gender checks, chosen starting alignment checks, and a simple 'liking' check at the beginning of the game, then have the PC be assumed to be in a relationship with Bastila, Carth, Atton, etc. depending on the player's replies to those questions. But of course my very favorite idea is having Atton back so that the Exile gets a chance to really _know_ him. That character and relationship needs redemption--or at least a chance for it. Hell, even if you make a new character, I'd like to see Atton back... after all, the Exile never got a chance to proclaim love for him, so Atton might be able to get over her. I'd rather see that than have him left out. He fascinated me, but there was so little of him. Then again, that applies to all the characters... I don't mind new ones, but far better would be to see a return of Bastila, Carth, Atton, T3, HK-47, and others we grew to love. I would like to have them fleshed out more, especially the ones who were in KOTOR 2 because they had far less screen time. But don't make too many--I'd rather see about five with detail than ten without detail. Character development is important to me in an RPG. To make you feel like you're doing all this fighting for a reason, and you have loyal companions by your side at the most critical moments... THAT is what makes the game so great. I really didn't much like having lots of Jedi on my ship, but not being able to bring a single one along in the last and most critical moments of the game. Not even two who forcibly volunteered, like Mandalore and Visas. Please... don't make the player end the game alone again. One of the coolest feelings an RPG like KOTOR gives you is that you have connections to the world you're seeing around you. The absolute best and most compelling way to do that, to immerse the player, is to give them a chance to really interact with their party members.

That's another good reason for Revan to be left to the player's choice. To avoid causing the fans to go full on Sith-vs.-Jedi on each other about the details. :D

Definitely not. And I know it must be rough on any of you guys who read forums, because forum-goers tend to be very passionate about games--especially games with any sort of flaw. You probably already know this, but let me say it anyway, just to reaffirm--people only waste hours of effort in complaining if they're complaining about something they love. I haven't heard anyone saying they thought the game unworthy of being in the series, just that they wish it had been so much more. And, having seen Thief 2 become a victim of time constraints, I'm all too familiar with publisher syndrome. Fans just have to realize the number one rule of rushed games: It's Not. The. Developer's. Fault. Developers tend to be passionate and if they have a flaw, it would be that they want to remain at 99% for a few extra years until their baby is perfectly what they wanted. It's so much harder to finish everything and do what your ambitions led you to plan when you're on a ludicrous deadline. While Lucas Arts has some great titles to their name, they pushed TSL way too much this time around. I was shocked to hear it was out so soon. Rome wasn't built in a day, and for games, a year is the equivalent of a day. Publishers REALLY need to learn that. I only pray that LA doesn't go the way of Eidos and fall to the dark side of rushing unfinished games out the door instead of taking the time to make something so memorable and polished that the reputation of both publisher and developer are boosted for years to come. I have no doubt Obsidian could do the job right. But not on a time scale like 13 months. That's crazy.

Oh, hell yeah. And especially "Something seems to be bothering ___". If the NPCs had been cut down, it would've been better, too. You get Handmaiden/Disciple, Mira or Hanharr, Kreia, Atton, T3, HK-47, Mandalore, Visas, Bao-Dur, and Go-To. I HATED Go-To, Handmaiden/Disciple are nice but aren't really necessary, Mandalore isn't either. If it'd been shaved down to Mira or Hanharr, Kreia, Atton, T3, HK-47, Bao-Dur, and Visas, all with better character development (particularly Atton and Mira), then I would've been a far happier woman. IMO, a few good NPCs--way better than a surplus of hollow NPCs. KOTOR 2's NPCs were like a backwards progression from the Baldur's Gate 1-Baldur's Gate 2 progression. In the Baldur's Gate games, they learned that a handful of deep NPCs were much more desirable than mountains of NPCs who never say much beyond their initial greeting. KOTOR 2 would've been a much better game if they'd made more consistently active characters. But then, having only 13 months, I don't really blame Obsidian. I think they just had too much on their plate.

Whatever comes in KOTOR 3, that much is worth a lot to me. Oh, damn, that rhymed... I'm sorry, I'm a bad poet. But this is a major joy of a news bulletin to me. I will definitely be interested in seeing the restored content, and having that window of happiness and increased insight into Atton's character.

I think an official anything is the worst idea I've heard since Jar Jar. One of the things I LOVE Obsidian for the most is that they let you determine Revan's gender AND alignment. That's exactly how it should be, how it must be. If there was ever a movie, the Exile and Revan should each be one gender or the other. Maybe a female Revan for the plot potential (imagine the audience shock when the mask comes off at Korriban) and a male Exile. But the games should always be left to the player's choice. So, because you played a certain way, the Dark Siders and female players should all have to suffer for it? You're coming off as pretty arrogant. Imagine how you'd feel if Revan was made a Dark Side Female. Revan is whoever and whatever the player made her to be. That's the point of a role-playing game. No one should ever take away that choice. Sion was talking to someone else's created character. That was a demo, not the true experience of the role-playing game. Concealing robes without any clear view of the important parts make for pure gender-neutrality, as does the name of Revan. That is how they designed the game. What you just said is as weak a link as saying "Come on, he wears black clothing, so obviously, he's black." Coloring, shape, size, class, gender, and name-given-by-the-council are all thankfully up to the player. There should never, NEVER be an official gender for Revan. Nor anything else. Be glad I'm not in the room with you, and that Bothan stunners don't exist. All right! Finally, somebody who understands that we women are evil and fit to rule the universe. (Just kidding; I actually play Light.) Ahh, but the relationship between Bastila and Revan works equally as well when you consider Bastila's broken bond with her only female relative--they develop a bond of sisters, a bond of family that Bastila had always secretly longed for. And Revan's connection to Malak, including her inability to see that he would betray her, her trust of him, makes more sense if she had a sort of love for him once which blinded her. If Revan was male, that makes it seem like he was just plain stupid about Malak. 'Course, he could be bi, I admit. Oooh... new question... should Revan have an official sexual orientation? *lol* Exactly the reason to turn things around. To me, resembling Raven as it does, it's a gender-neutral name... although, somewhat feminine if you think about it. Well, that you admit that says good things about your objectivity. He was probably where I was--in America. We're notorious for a female-devoid, nationalistic view of history in our textbooks. Regrettably, public education here really sucks lightsaber. You won't hear anything about Alvild the pirate or Trung Trac and Trung Nhi, I can tell you that much. Thanks for your post, by the way.

Oh, all those are TOO good... too, TOO good... *wipes tears of mirth* *lmao* Those options were pretty damned great, too! Next thing I know, Atton will be telling me I sweat cute blood. That was so sick, and yet so lovely.

With me, Disciple was really like a brother. Not an idiot brother, just that guy who you think you should probably be falling for, but you don't. With Atton... it's the layers. The insanely adorable flirtation lines. The jokes he cracks. The deeper feelings, the self-hatred and defiance, the compassion, the guilt, the love underneath the exterior. That he feels he's not good enough for you, not out of some lack of self-confidence, but because of his history with the Jedi, and your deeper destiny. And yet, he was so woefully underdeveloped. Like basically every character in the game, but with Atton is where it really hurts the game. As my sig says, my number one hope is to see him in KOTOR 3 as a party NPC. He NEEDS character development redemption. You can't make a more well-crafted, intriguing, appealing character than you already have in Atton... if only there'd been more. A real potential. And I doubt the patch or an expansion will do anything much to correct this. This would make me hope to see the Exile and Atton get a real chance in the third game. I hope we'll be able to play her again.

We don't make poll options out of ungrateful monkey-lizards. HK-47, Jolee, Atton, Bao-Dur, Kreia... they're all great with me. But I think I'm most fond of Atton... if only he had more lines. Many, many, many more lines. And not in the beginning of the game or Nar-Shadaa. The funniest NPCs are HK-47 and Jolee, because they get ever so much more screen time.