Meshugger

Western culture is just as much a product of ancient Greek and Enlightenment traditions, I'm really not seeing why do you want to single out christianity as a uniquely relevant part of these cultural pillars. Because claiming that the christian ethics, the concept of redemption and ethos, not to mention architecture and art having no bearing on the European heritage is wishful thinking at best.

Of course, Islam is just a religion...but this religion moved it's followers, the Arabs, to learn all knowledge available. Islam changed the Arabs from being ignorant into enlightenment. The first revelation in Quran is "Read, in the name of Allah who created you from blood clot". That's the first step. What i mean is Islam is a catalyst for changes in which makes the Arabs are knowledge hungry. That's the Arabs, of course Muslims are not just the Arabs, there are Persians, Turkish, Spaniards, Moorish, Chinese, Malays...and on and on...every Muslims bring on own knowledges and share it, contribute it to Islam. That's why you can see everything found by Muslims either it was original or originated from somewhere, it is contribute to Islam. Persian Muslims don't contribute it to Persia, and so others toward their nationality, but to Islam. Al Khwarizmi who created the Algebra, originally Al-Jabbar, he study Hindu numerology, and so many others, and making mathematical formula for what? For Islam...it is for Muslims to make easy counting the zakat, the alms, and make bearings toward Makkah for prayer and pilgrimage. You can't deny it is contribution from islam because Algebra is created for Islam. The same in chemistry, it was Al-Khemyt, then Alchemy...it was Egyptian knowledge, learned by the Muslim Arabs for what? To learn the truth behind all things, the truth about Allah creations. What motivate the Arabs to learn that knowledge is Islam. from there the knowledge evolved and spread to the west, becoming modern chemistry. You can't deny islam contribution to the world because it is too many. If there is no islam, the world don't change into what we see today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng Oh, no one is denying that Islamic scholars took Hindu, Greek and other scriptures, translated and finally developed them. But the thing is, you have all this innovation taken place when the islamic laws were the most laxed. After turning back to being closer to the scripture and focusing on out-islaming one another, all that knowledge is rendered moot and you are left with people thinking what knowledge is haram or not. All while the Iranians, who are waaaay more secular, especially the youth, are making great progress. Maybe the islamic world never emotionally recovered from the destruction of Baghdad by the Mongols, who knows. Interesting anecdote though that the Iranians have continued this tradition compared to others, either they have fallen or the Persian influence was greater that you would like to admit. Maybe they as a people, as a culture, nurture such traditions compared to the frivolous Arabs, but i admit that this last part is still speculation from my side. Besides, one can say the same thing about the Romans. Or the Han dynasty in China.

And none of this was integral to the foundation of the Mongol Empire thereby contradicting your claim that "no great civilization has existed without a founding religion". That's a pretty big claim to make. What would the Mongol empire be without the wind-worshipping mongols? Meshugger you don't need a religion as the foundation of modern Western countries as far as the religion being a intricate part of decision making in government ? Aren't Western countries secular around there governments ? Culture, Bruce. Sorry do you mean religion in Western countries is part of the culture? What exactly is your question? Is my point really so incomprehensible ? I am asking Namutree if he means religion is part of Western culture Human rights, democracy, freedom of speech and free markets doesn't make a western nation. Those are ideals in themselves, otherwise following the same logic, Greece would have gone from being the foundation of western civilization, to beeing not it in the 70's to becoming western once again in the 90's. Western civilization is the heritage that the people of Europe have, from the Etruscans, Illyrians, Hellenic, Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian to Charlemagne, the French Revolution, the Scottish enlightment, the founding of USA, the German idealism, to Classical music, Philosophy, Christian Theology, the Architecture to the spirit and ideas of vices and virtues. All of these are products of different white people being at each others throats from years to years end with ever re-occuring wars. We have had one church, then two, then a protestant revolution. The society we have today in Europe is the result of all that history as it have developed organically. Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. And no Qistina, Islam hasn't invented anything. It was done by Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, etc. The sooner you let go of such whimsical musings, the sooner your people will actually read books again and before you know it, you'll have your renaissance you will be walking on the moon.

I don't understand your question and i don't understand what the article is about, i don't speak that language He is asking you why Muslims in Finland feel responsible for the actions of those two refugees who raped the girl...why do they feel they should apologize for something they never did But he is missing something important....they doing it for people like him who question if the refugees can be integrated Oh i see, well maybe it is because of they are minorities, and then the west negative view about Islam, so they compelled to say "we are good guys, please don't see us the same like those rapists, terrorists, robbers, bad guys...", i feel pity for Muslims in the west actually, maybe because i live in Muslim country, i feel superior here... Blah, the joke went over everyone's head. Nvm.

And none of this was integral to the foundation of the Mongol Empire thereby contradicting your claim that "no great civilization has existed without a founding religion". That's a pretty big claim to make. What would the Mongol empire be without the wind-worshipping mongols? Meshugger you don't need a religion as the foundation of modern Western countries as far as the religion being a intricate part of decision making in government ? Aren't Western countries secular around there governments ? Culture, Bruce. Sorry do you mean religion in Western countries is part of the culture? What exactly is your question?

And none of this was integral to the foundation of the Mongol Empire thereby contradicting your claim that "no great civilization has existed without a founding religion". That's a pretty big claim to make. What would the Mongol empire be without the wind-worshipping mongols?

Some good news everyone! After the rape of 14 year old girl by asylum seekers in Kempele, about 100 asylum seekers/refugees marched in the nearby city of Oulu with roses and begged for forgiveness for the sins of their brethren http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/art-1448939517887.html Qistina, why are they displaying such acts of remorse and shame for things they haven't done? Sounds like something a christian would do.

Peace is an ideal, war is fact. Enjoy what you have and what you can and make sure that those around know how to protect themselves. Hopefully space exploration, fusion energy and alike will kick off soon so that humanity can be scattered and not be vulnarable with a total war in one place.

The Mongol empire. That, said this is absurd thinking. I'm a big believer in "incorrect belief leads to incorrect action" so basing social policy off blind religious dogma seems a recipe for disaster. To be honest I have no interest in preserving any particular skin colours or cultures. Genghis Khan and his people worshipped the winds, their ancestors and other shamanic stuff. All while his successors split into islam (the golden horde) and the buddist Yuan dynasty, thus forming new civilizations. I think that you're confusing my point of people and the administrative policy for containing his vassals. As for you personal interest in people and cultures, it doesn't matter as such things happen organically outside of your opinion.

While you guys are busy debating on whether you should position yourselves as intellectual patricians or not, i have good news from the front. Thanks to ISIL and their deplorable islamist ways, more and more youths are instead looking into converting to Zoroastrianism, especially among the Kurds. http://projects21.com/2015/11/26/the-curious-rebirth-of-zoroastrianism-in-iraqi-kurdistan/

Greece is annexed by Turkey which is turn is annexed by Russia. It's like you guys want to resurrect the Byzantine Empire or something.

Cross-posting from the other thread, since those two kinda interlap. Tsipras on the EU-Turkey deal:

He's talking about words with fixed meaning, and when he uses them to mean something entirely different, he comes across as an undereducated fool. Now tell me, why should I value the opinion of an undereducated fool? You're just jealous that your marxist dialectic does not bring the boys the yard.

Uuurgh, i hate, haaaaate when people crop sentences into multiquotes. Pretty please, try to write something more condenced the next time. Sarcasm? No sarcasm, that's the way here up north. Not really sold on crypto-primitivist societies as a solution to unsustainable resource exploitation. What constitutes "homogeneous"? What happens to those who don't conform to group homogeneity? How does one maintain self-sustainability in these small communities? Rationing? Killing off chunks of the population? Most importantly of all though how does one reconstruct the existing state of affairs to bring about these "small", "homogeneous" societies? It's happening as we speak in Europe, more and more states are created as people refuse to live in suprastates. Compare a map from 1914 to now to catch my drift. Kind of ironic when thinking of the EU at the same time, which started as an economic union to prevent war (yay!) into the behemoth that it is today. Nothing to disagree about there, but it has to come from nations voluntarily cooperating together without a top-down class politicrats larping civilization. CERN is a result of such cooperation, which is a nice thing. You already stated that their purpose is material. Your issue is not purposelessness but the fact that people's purposes are not the purposes you want them to be. It is the modernist dogma of the tangible things are the only things that matter which has led it from a tool to use, like in science, into a religion of thought in itself, which in turn has led to a void in the spiritual in human life. It has surely manifested in the degeneracy that we know as modern art, yuck. People seem to have forgotten that no great civilization has existed without a founding religion, and now we see the results today with all kind of religious violence and war, which somehow doesn't seem to stop, no matter how progressive we try to be. Remember me asking about SJWs and their behaviour reminding of religious zealots? Well, here i think there's something to it. As for my purpose, I am content with spreading my ideas as far and wide through the web and promote my kind of thinking. I am also planning to have a family and children, of which i will pass these ideas, values for the next generation where you should always try to overcome your shortcomings, learn from your mistakes and try to live a virtous life as much as possible. That's as far as i will tell about myself personally. Aren't you one of these people? Nope. They are fixated on race as an external and material thing, which leads to eugenics and the slippery slope of what is a "pure" race, despite of what inner qualities of the person itself. For me it is in the traditional, spiritual and the values that come naturally with that. Sure, it leads to groups of people with distinct facial features as a consequence in the long run, but isn't that the diversity that people like so much? those differences that make different cultures so interesting with different customs and languages?

Nationalism is modern. What people, culture and values are you referring to? Do the people in your country/state have uniform culture and values? And how on earth is organising around this an effective means of combating unsustainable resource exploitation? Yup, we have the same values, religion and social cues. For example, being unable to queue and cut in line makes a you social outcast who will be ostrasized by everyone. As for resources, i suggest to heavily invest in owning your own guns, self-sustainability and energy independence. Globalism however, is the accelerant to a certain doom as it centralizes political and financial power in the hands of the few and thus is the most vulnarable to big changes. Smaller, homongeneous, self-ruled, self-sustainable societies will survive in the long run. There's also the modernist component of valuing only the material as its own religion, which leaves people living empty, purposeless lives, easily corrupted by extremist ideologies who promises them a destiny they feel robbed of. Meshugger I find it hard to believe you could be so melancholic, depressed and negative about the EU and the West...does anyone else believe he is so truly negative? I would think there is an element of hyperbole and theatrics in your posts ? lol, here i am sowing the seeds for a better tomorrow and there you are complaining about the loss of the poison ivy. lol #2: About 14 000 refugees have dissappeared in Sweden: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-29/14000-refugees-due-deportation-sweden-have-vanished-we-simply-do-not-know-where-they

...Said he, once again proving he has no ****ing clue whatsoever as to what modernism is. Aww, that's so cute. On-topic: Tsipras shares his thoughts on the deal between Turkey and EU:

Nationalism is modern. What people, culture and values are you referring to? Do the people in your country/state have uniform culture and values? And how on earth is organising around this an effective means of combating unsustainable resource exploitation? Yup, we have the same values, religion and social cues. For example, being unable to queue and cut in line makes a you social outcast who will be ostrasized by everyone. As for resources, i suggest to heavily invest in owning your own guns, self-sustainability and energy independence. Globalism however, is the accelerant to a certain doom as it centralizes political and financial power in the hands of the few and thus is the most vulnarable to big changes. Smaller, homongeneous, self-ruled, self-sustainable societies will survive in the long run. There's also the modernist component of valuing only the material as its own religion, which leaves people living empty, purposeless lives, easily corrupted by extremist ideologies who promises them a destiny they feel robbed of.

I'm assuming you're wanting to bend over for some nationalist group, yes? I'm not interested in nationalist movements that are bound by modernist philosophies. //Edit: point being, people gravitate normally to those with the same values and cooperate accordingly, and those values are usually from within the same culture, which in turn usually are from the same people. Trying add nationalism as an ideal first and try fit on who should be included is to start from the wrong end.

I wouldn't mind if it wasn't so wasteful and stupid. You're dead anyway, why are you so intent on making other people's lives worse before the inevitable happens? Are you implying the current situation is the best thing for mankind? oh dear, oh dear. You're not making much sense here, I'm afraid. What do you mean by "current situation" and "best thing for mankind"? I'm not sure why I should be interested in my future generations, but let's assume I am. Do you think you, alone, can meaningfully impact the survival chances of your offspring in an event that wipes out most of humanity? I knew you were essentially statistically illiterate, but this is just delusional. The inevitable collapse of the global ecosystem won't happen in my lifetime, but indeed, I'm not planning on having any kids. Oh dear, oh dear. Such nihilism, i pity you. I leave you be in your darkness.

Your first mistake was aligning with those responsible. Your second was thinking they'd care about you. Why should someone listen to those responsible? they are not even part of the equation.

I wouldn't mind if it wasn't so wasteful and stupid. You're dead anyway, why are you so intent on making other people's lives worse before the inevitable happens? Are you implying the current situation is the best thing for mankind? oh dear, oh dear. When it comes to basic survival, then how it would be worse to not stack the odds to your own favour and for your future generations? Mind you, it was you who claimed that **** will hit the fan anyway, no matter what we do. Otherwise you might as well start by killing yourself since nothing matters anyway, trololo0000l.

As far as I know, climatologists are fairly confident we've passed the point of no return and are looking forward to a mass extinction event in a few generations. You won't really have to worry about the living environment of your children and grandchildren, because chances are, they're going to die for reasons completely unrelated to various forms of violence and injustice done by their fellow men. So it's basic survival because global cataclysmic events? Alrighty then, i do hope that you don't mind if people already start to make precautions for the inevitable and looking at their own first, which will also end with war....but for different reasons.

Its becoming clear you don't want a positive view of the West and the current status of Western institutions like the EU I spend time explaining that Western ideology is under no threat from the likes of Islamic extremism because basically your issues and various questions are a symptomatic concern from the consequences of the actions of ISIS and you dismiss my entire post with some annoying " you haven't answered any of my questions" There are plenty of people who will exaggerate and embellish the state of the West and its sustainability. People like Drowsy and Zora will tell you the West is doomed and our culture is on the path to serious change and forced evolution...so you need to just continue to support them in there posts. There view supports the whole " chicken little ...the sky is falling " I operate in a world of facts, data and historical precedent. I won't pander to your negative view of the reality of the EU and say how " bad things are " just so you feel vindicated on some level You refuse to answer because you cannot provide any, then give an answer about ISIS that has nothing to do with the original questions and then pat yourself on the back that you have the facts at hand of which can refute my original points but still somehow fail to provide them. This kind of behaviour is anything but western in spirit.

Don't worry, the EU has a solution already, donating 3 billion to Turkey: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6162_en.htm What is of course the most interesting is: A country of 77 million, with a military supporting ISIS, with an islamist president playing dictator, which has a border nation with the whole middle east, is getting money, better Visa rules, and an accelerated process for joining the EU. I have seldom seen such incompetence, utter lack of backbone and rectitude. Welp, time for some nice music for the sunset fellas.

I think global climate change is going to make sure your children won't need to worry about any of those things. Elaborate please.