Chanter: Beckoner or Troubadour for end game?

[Ganrich]

 

Please don't forget that the Troubadour has an increased cost for ALL invocations though and needs two more phrases to cast offensive invocations compared to the Skald. For non-offensive invocations and summons the resource cost is actually the same.

With Brisk Recitation I think the Troubadour can cast invocations faster than the Skald unless they cost 2 phrases. In this case they cost 1 for the Skald, so they can cast them every six seconds, whereas they cost 3 for the Troubadour, so they can cast them every nine seconds. Once you hit a base cost of 3 phrases the two are equal (2*6 = 4*3) and beyond that the Troubadour can outcast the Skald.

 

For non-offensive invocations a Troubadour using Brisk Recitation is faster across the board I believe (I don't think there are any invocations that cost 1 Phrase).

This. Unless your RNG luck is greater than mine then the Troubadour will cast anything higher than the 2 cost invocations faster than Skald. That, and they have the same cast time for every Invocation. What i mean is that they aren't penalized for summons, nor offensive, nor non-offensive necessarily. Yes, everything costs one more than normal, but BR means you still cast higher level invocations faster than any other Chanter no matter what kind of invocation you're talking about.

 

If you are leaving BR off then you won't, but you easily get 100% uptime on two Phrases as a benefit. Troubadour is a very micro dependant sub if you want to make the most of it, or it can be passive for quick invocations, or it can be passive and have the 100% uptime on 2 Phrases. It is the most diverse chanter sub, and outside of requiring more of the player has no real negatives to speak of.

 

Where Skald can cast low level Offensive Invocations quickly, and potentially generate phrases on Crit. However, that is RNG, and because you are reliant on crit you tend to only use it to cast Killers Froze. This is in order to increase melee crit chance. God forbid the enemies have good Will saves. It works wonders in some builds, but not in all. Also, the most powerful invocations are buffs and summons as they arent capable of whiffing and they have OP outcomes. Regenerating class resources, and Drakes/Dragons with infinite Empower. The Skald is penalized for these phrases. The troubadour is not simply because of BR.

[Voltron]

 

Please don't forget that the Troubadour has an increased cost for ALL invocations though and needs two more phrases to cast offensive invocations compared to the Skald. For non-offensive invocations and summons the resource cost is actually the same.

With Brisk Recitation I think the Troubadour can cast invocations faster than the Skald unless they cost 2 phrases. In this case they cost 1 for the Skald, so they can cast them every six seconds, whereas they cost 3 for the Troubadour, so they can cast them every nine seconds. Once you hit a base cost of 3 phrases the two are equal (2*6 = 4*3) and beyond that the Troubadour can outcast the Skald.

 

For non-offensive invocations a Troubadour using Brisk Recitation is faster across the board I believe (I don't think there are any invocations that cost 1 Phrase).

 

 

Correct, Brisk give you Phrases so fast that you can out-cast any other Chanter class. 

 

Troubadour is best for end game simply because of how flexible he is. 

 

For example in the beginning of the fight on my solo War Caller I like to keep linger on myself to have perma two effects = for example Old Siec leech + Mith Fyr as at the beginning I am using DIs. Strikes, Vig.Def + Energize from Invocation and then just Charge through enemies with fire lash + life leech from chants. 

 

However then I run out of Fighter resources and I can if need to switch to Healing Chant (old Siec or Ancient + Soft Winds) if I know this fight will still last because enemies are strong and Brisk Recitation and now I am fighting in melee and spam Paralyze/Charm/Seven Nights or summon my trusty wurms every 3 attacks. I generate Phrases so fast I sometimes forget to cast when I have just enough. 

 

Troubadour is just flexible. He can be best Chanter caster with Brisk on while still getting very good chants for himself (old siec, ancient memory, her courage, Skeleton summon) and party or best chanting class as he has at lvl 20 perma Linger so you can combine two chants and have them both 100% of time, while having your Invocation in backup (which makes him best option for melee multi mix).

 

Beaconer is ok, but he lacks this flexibility. His summon are fun, but Troubadour summons last longer. Skald has lower cost, so he has better initial casting (beginning of the fight he can cast 2-3 offensive Invocations fast) but during the whole fight he casts slower than Brisk Troubadour. 

 

So after playing with him for so long I say Troubadour, simply for flexibility and that little additional micro (chants switch + brisk on/off) that really makes a difference.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Voltron

[L4wlight]

With Brisk Recitation I think the Troubadour can cast invocations faster than the Skald unless they cost 2 phrases. In this case they cost 1 for the Skald, so they can cast them every six seconds, whereas they cost 3 for the Troubadour, so they can cast them every nine seconds. Once you hit a base cost of 3 phrases the two are equal (2*6 = 4*3) and beyond that the Troubadour can outcast the Skald.

 

For non-offensive invocations a Troubadour using Brisk Recitation is faster across the board I believe (I don't think there are any invocations that cost 1 Phrase).

You can't just completely ignore the phrase per crit generation. Let's take a good mid to high level offensive invocation like Her Tears Fell Like Rain (base cost of 5) for example. The Troubadour needs 18 seconds (6*3) to generate enough phrases, while the Skald is 1 phrase off (3*6) after 18 seconds (needs 4 phrases). The Skald just needs to generate 1 phrase per crit during the 18 seconds (!!!) to catch up with the Troubadour. With the right build you're able generate way more than that.

 

And don't forget about the Brilliant inspiration: The Troubadour now needs 9 seconds to generate once again 6 phrases (to stay with this example), while the Skald also needs 9 seconds (1 phrase normally after 6 seconds and 3 phrases per Brilliant) to generate 4 phrases.

 

Troubadour and Skald aren't equal at casting offensive invocations with a base cost of 3 either, unless you completely ignore the phrase per crit generation of the Skald by default. Also, Brilliant inspiration once again favors the Skald here: The Troubadour needs 6 seconds to cast (for example) The Killers Froze (generated phrases equals phrase-cost), while the Skald also needs 6 seconds but generated 1 spare phrase. For the next Killers Froze Stiff the Skald only needs 3 seconds.

 

As for offensive invocations, Skald is always the better choice in my opinion.

 

Edit: Overall the Troubadour is more flexible. Skald is king at casting offensive invocations.

Edited May 22, 2018 by L4wlight

[Venatoris78]

So for Bleak Walker Melee Damage Oriented:

Troubadour / Skald / Beaconer???

 

I first thought Skald, but now i think, that Beaconer would fit the most. 

[Voltron]

 

With Brisk Recitation I think the Troubadour can cast invocations faster than the Skald unless they cost 2 phrases. In this case they cost 1 for the Skald, so they can cast them every six seconds, whereas they cost 3 for the Troubadour, so they can cast them every nine seconds. Once you hit a base cost of 3 phrases the two are equal (2*6 = 4*3) and beyond that the Troubadour can outcast the Skald.

 

For non-offensive invocations a Troubadour using Brisk Recitation is faster across the board I believe (I don't think there are any invocations that cost 1 Phrase).

You can't just completely ignore the phrase per crit generation. Let's take a good mid to high level offensive invocation like Her Tears Fell Like Rain (base cost of 5) for example. The Troubadour needs 18 seconds (6*3) to generate enough phrases, while the Skald is 1 phrase off (3*6) after 18 seconds (needs 4 phrases). The Skald just needs to generate 1 phrase per crit during the 18 seconds (!!!) to catch up with the Troubadour. With the right build you're able generate way more than that.

 

And don't forget about the Brilliant inspiration: The Troubadour now needs 9 seconds to generate once again 6 phrases (to stay with this example), while the Skald also needs 9 seconds (1 phrase normally after 6 seconds and 3 phrases per Brilliant) to generate 4 phrases.

 

Troubadour and Skald aren't equal at casting offensive invocations with a base cost of 3 either, unless you completely ignore the phrase per crit generation of the Skald by default. Also, Brilliant inspiration once again favors the Skald here: The Troubadour needs 6 seconds to cast (for example) The Killers Froze (generated phrases equals phrase-cost), while the Skald also needs 6 seconds but generated 1 spare phrase. For the next Killers Froze Stiff the Skald only needs 3 seconds.

 

As for offensive invocations, Skald is always the better choice in my opinion.

 

 

The longer fight lasts the faster Troubadour with Brisk will be. Also the very very little difference you mentioned is absolutely not worth giving up flexibility of Troubadour and perma Linger on Chants.

 

Also 50% on crit means that, it's 50%. I tried Skald early in game, but sometimes I crit like 5 times on row and it did not proc at all. I don't like RNG.

 

With Troubadour I know exactly that I will get that needed Phrases in next seconds. Hence why I would take Troubadour on offensive invocation Chanter too, just stay on Brisk on most of the time and you can still have crazy Linger. Or you can stay on Brisk and still summon crazy fast due to passive chant summoning skeleton.

 

Also don't forget that offensive invocations of Chanter are not his main thing. While some are good, summons and crazy buffs/CC (charm/paralyze) etc. can win fight many times better than offensive invocation. And here skald has +1 cost but still has super slow Phrases generation.

 

While troubadour generate Phrases super fast for any type of invocation. Not to mention how fast you can turn off/on Brisk to begin with.

 

Small difference is not worth the sheer flexibility that Troubadour have.

[Voltron]

So for Bleak Walker Melee Damage Oriented:

Troubadour / Skald / Beaconer???

 

I first thought Skald, but now i think, that Beaconer would fit the most. 

 

I may seem biased but I tried all 3 on my solos and I will say every time: Troubadour. Especially for melee character due to Linger on chants (you only need INT 20 to have in early game perma two healing from Soft Wind + Ancient memory combined or later in game +10 deflection + Mith Fyr, Old Siec + Mith Fyr or finally Mercy and Kindness + any healing one) + phrase generation when you feel you need it to fast cast invocations. When you learn how to manage Brisk- he has pretty much no downside.

 

Beaconer summons are ok, but last too short imo. Unless you empower them every time. And summons look like toys

 

Sklad is ok, but increased cost on Summon/Buff/Debuff invocations is imo not worth it. They are many times much more valuable than straight offensive invocations. Also 50% on crit is what it is= chance. Sometimes it just won't proc when needed.

 

Just my opinion, anyone can disagree.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Voltron

[L4wlight]

I don't question the flexibility of the Troubadour subclass. It's just plain and simple wrong to say that the Troubadour is better at casting offensive invocations. It also depends a lot whether you play solo or not. A watcher that limits himself to mostly offensive invocations is very viable in a party. The Skald is the best subclass for that. Generating crits with the right party composition is no problem at all.

 

I know that you like to play solo builds, but that's just not the way each and everybody plays this game. I'd probably favor Troubadour over Skald in solo play too.

[Venatoris78]

I will play party mode. )

Okay, i see Troubadour and Skald both have their advantages...

 

Hm, perhaps i should roll for the decision.^^

[Voltron]

I don't question the flexibility of the Troubadour subclass. It's just plain and simple wrong to say that the Troubadour is better at casting offensive invocations. It also depends a lot whether you play solo or not. A watcher that limits himself to mostly offensive invocations is very viable in a party. The Skald is the best subclass for that. Generating crits with the right party composition is no problem at all.

 

I know that you like to play solo builds, but that's just not the way each and everybody plays this game. I'd probably favor Troubadour over Skald in solo play too.

Thing is the difference between offensive Troubadour and Skald is: the longer and harder fight is = the better Troubadour will be as he does not rely on Crits to build his Phrases faster. Skald has only better initial casts (begining of the fight with max Phrases). Troubadour will be better and more reliable (not relying on RNG chance on crits) offensive Chanter. And he does that from the beginning of game where belive me- you won't crit at all with Skald early to mid-game, especially with party as you won't have enough gold to gear yourself up as fast you can on solo. Skald passive 50% only starts to shine on mid-end game on multi with melee who can crit a lot.

 

If you build pure Chanter for party- you won't crit much due to having to focus on casting and chanters do not have Hits to Crit like Berserkers or Fighters have. Tell me how much often you will crit with pure Skald? With what weapons, accuracy and penetration? And it's still just 50% chance on that rare crits. Even on multi class - you will start crit like crazy only in mid-end game when you get all good Hits to Crit items and it's still only 50% chance. Troubadour will still match that.

 

And if you want to multi chanter with melee- Troubadour just offers more for melee multi than Skald due to Linger and flexibility.

 

But lets just go with Math:

 

On Brisk On Troubadour generates Phrases 50% faster than Skald. One Chant is 6 sec. That is 6 sec per 1 Phrase.

 

For example Seven Nights invocation costs 5 Phrases. 6 Phrases for Troubadour, 4 Phrases for Skald. We start with 0 Phrases.

 

Brisk Recitation on 1 Phrase per 3 sec. Cost: 6. That is 18 seconds to get 6 Phrases for Troubadour.

 

Skald 1 Phrase for 6 seconds. Cost: 4. That is 24 seconds to get 4 Phrases. 

 

Even if you somehow crit like crazy on Skald and you get 50% proc often, that is 6 seconds difference, so one full Phrase for Skald, 2 Phrases for Troubadour in Brisk mode. The only advantage of Skald is that in the beginning of fight he can cast 2 offensive invocations in row instead of one like Troubadour. But then when fights get longer= Troubadour will just cast more. The difference becomes staggering bigger if you want to cast something non offensive as then Skald takes forever vs Troubadour. Even as pure offensive you still want Paralyze or Charm to defend yourself at least.

 

Especially if you want to build "offensive" caster- you want Troubadour as you won't crit at all with offensive invocations on Skald till like 13-15 level (unless you play on lower difficulties I guess but on PotD- no. And will scalling on and up- 100% sure you won't) as they have low Penetration and you won't have enough accuracy early to mid game. For multi you could go for Sklad on Zerker/Fighter (though Troubadour is still better imo) as they have Hits to Crit from start (Frenzy/Disciplined Strikes). But for pure offensive caster- troubadour only.

 

That pretty much for me settles who is better offensive one.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Voltron

[L4wlight]

Thing is the difference between offensive Troubadour and Skald is: the longer and harder fight is = the better Troubadour will be as he does not rely on Crits to build his Phrases faster.

Again. For non-offensive invocations? Maybe. Most likely.

For offensive invocations. No.

Is the Skald inflexible in this regard? Yes.

 

 

But lets just go with Math:

 

On Brisk On Troubadour generates Phrases 50% faster than Skald. One Chant is 6 sec. That is 6 sec per 1 Phrase.

 

For example Seven Nights invocation costs 5 Phrases. 6 Phrases for Troubadour, 4 Phrases for Skald. We start with 0 Phrases.

 

Brisk Recitation on 1 Phrase per 3 sec. Cost: 6. That is 18 seconds to get 6 Phrases for Troubadour.

 

Skald 1 Phrase for 6 seconds. Cost: 4. That is 24 seconds to get 4 Phrases. 

 

Even if you somehow crit like crazy on Skald and you get 50% proc often, that is 6 seconds difference, so one full Phrase for Skald, 2 Phrases for Troubadour in Brisk mode.

It's just not true that Troubadour in general generates phrases faster when it comes to offensive invocations. At the very least, even with bad crit luck, Skald and Troubadour are equal once you factor in the Brilliant inspiration, with the Skald having the potential to generate way more.

 

Your example:

The Troubadour generates enough phrases (6; needs 6) to cast Seven Nights after 18 seconds, yes. The Skald generates only half as much phrases during that time (3; needs 4). As I said, the Skald just needs to generate 1 more phrase per crit during the 18 seconds (!!!) to catch up with the Troubadour. You can generate much more than 1 with the right race/ multi-class combination, gear, talents and party composition (Buffs, Debuffs etc.). The potential is there. There is even a multi-projectile melee weapon that basically doubles your chance to generate crits with each melee-swing. Use your imagination.

 

Even if you ignore the phrase per crit generation of the Skald (and why would you?), the Skald catches up with the Troubadour once you get access to the Brilliant inspiration: The Troubadour now only needs 9 seconds to generate once again 6 phrases (2 phrases per 3 seconds thanks to Brilliant), while the Skald also needs 9 seconds (generates 1 phrase through chanting after 6 seconds and 3 phases per Brilliant after 9 seconds) to generate 4 phrases. Both can cast Seven Nights after 9 seconds. Skald can be faster, if he manages to generate a phrase per crit.

 

That's all wanted to say. When it comes to non-offensive invocation it's a whole other story, yes.

Edited May 22, 2018 by L4wlight

[Voltron]

 

Thing is the difference between offensive Troubadour and Skald is: the longer and harder fight is = the better Troubadour will be as he does not rely on Crits to build his Phrases faster.

Again. For non-offensive invocations? Maybe. Most likely.

For offensive invocations. No.

Is the Skald inflexible in this regard? Yes.

 

 

But lets just go with Math:

 

On Brisk On Troubadour generates Phrases 50% faster than Skald. One Chant is 6 sec. That is 6 sec per 1 Phrase.

 

For example Seven Nights invocation costs 5 Phrases. 6 Phrases for Troubadour, 4 Phrases for Skald. We start with 0 Phrases.

 

Brisk Recitation on 1 Phrase per 3 sec. Cost: 6. That is 18 seconds to get 6 Phrases for Troubadour.

 

Skald 1 Phrase for 6 seconds. Cost: 4. That is 24 seconds to get 4 Phrases. 

 

Even if you somehow crit like crazy on Skald and you get 50% proc often, that is 6 seconds difference, so one full Phrase for Skald, 2 Phrases for Troubadour in Brisk mode.

It's just not true that Troubadour in general generates phrases faster when it comes to offensive invocations. At the very least, even with bad crit luck, Skald and Troubadour are equal once you factor in the Brilliant inspiration, with the Skald having the potential to generate way more.

 

Your example:

The Troubadour generates enough phrases (6; needs 6) to cast Seven Nights after 18 seconds, yes. The Skald generates only half as much phrases during that time (3; needs 4). As I said, the Skald just needs to generate 1 more phrase per crit during the 18 seconds (!!!) to catch up with the Troubadour. You can generate much more than 1 with the right race/ multi-class combination, gear, talents and party composition (Buffs, Debuffs etc.). The potential is there. There is even a multi-projectile melee weapon that basically doubles your chance to generate crits with each melee-swing. Use your imagination.

 

Even if you ignore the phrase per crit generation of the Skald (and why would you?), the Skald catches up with the Troubadour once you get access to the Brilliant inspiration: The Troubadour now only needs 9 seconds to generate once again 6 phrases (2 phrases per 3 seconds thanks to Brilliant), while the Skald also needs 9 seconds (generates 1 phrase through chanting after 6 seconds and 3 phases per Brilliant after 9 seconds) to generate 4 phrases. Both can cast Seven Nights after 9 seconds. Skald can be faster, if he manages to generate a phrase per crit.

 

That's all wanted to say. When it comes to non-offensive invocation it's a whole other story, yes.

 

 

As you wrote they MIGHT by equal in speed without brilliant if you mange to crit and if that crit will proc. And they are equal with Brilliant on 9 second vs 9 seconds with then slight edge on Skald as he can also proc hit Crit. But again- pure caster chanter (not Multi) won't crit that much.

 

So if they are equal- I still don't see point taking Skald over Troubadour, who will at the same time be better overall caster when needed and also has access to better chant combos for whole party. 

Besides once you get Brilliant and you are with party- it does not matter at all, your party will just annihilate whole screen faster than you get that offensive invocation for second time

 

I love Chanter in PoE2 (my fav class now), but after playing with him a lot it's imo Troubadour>Skald>Beaconer>Pure Chanter. The only where I would take Skald is Berserker.

 

Anyway- Level VII is where everything stop making difference because of brilliant.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Voltron

[L4wlight]

I just wanted to point out that the Troubadour is not globally faster/ better at casting offensive invocations. Not with a larger picture in mind (gear, multi-classing, party composition etc.). If you want to create a watcher that purely focuses on offensive invocations (that's 100% legit and viable), you might come up with a multi-class/ gear/ race/ party composition that highly favors Skald over Troubadour. Again, for maximizing the potential of offensive invocations.

Edited May 22, 2018 by L4wlight

[rheingold]

Really enjoying my beckoner. I like skalds, but I am not crazy about troubadours. Dunno why, they are a great class. Maybe cause they just feel boring from a roleplay point of view. They kinda come across as an "efficient " chanter without having any real identity, which I think beckoner and skalds have.

Edited May 22, 2018 by rheingold