[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Casper]

Did the game ever account for the Ngati/Ondra conundrum?

 

I mean, the Huana living on Ukaizo entered into a covenant with Ngati (and enjoyed the protection provided by her three guardian dragons) before the Engwithans arrived on the island. The problem here is that Ondra didn't even exist at that point in time and that she, according to the Guardian, created/activated Ondra's Mortar soon after the Engwithans vanished (i.e. ascended to godhood). The ancestral watershaping form can be found on Ukaizo, so it must mean that they acquired that ability from Ngati (who can't be Ondra) before the cataclysm.

the only thing i came up with was that the ancient huana had their own god Ngati (whatever it was, maybe something akin to a supped-up water dragon or something similar), and perhaps it died with ukaizo, and ondra only took the name for some reason? though that still doesn't make much sense, i admit.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Casper

[Yria]

I found the timing of the whole Ngati/Ondra/watershaping covenant thing confusing, too. I don't think the game ever accounts for it. I just assumed there was a significant time gap, same as Tarlonniel.

 

I'm a little hazy on the guardians. I believe the watershaper dragon says it wasn't even born when the cataclysm happened. The guardian of Ukaizo has a lot of knowledge about what happened before the gods came into existence, but is that because it was created before the gods, or was it given the knowledge afterwards, when it was put there as a guard after the destruction?

 

I think the guardian says that the Engwithans made a pact with them dinosaurs (or whatever they were before turning into giant dino animats) to have them guard Ukaizo. The guardian describes how they watched the destruction wipe out the huana. There was even a line in the conversation with him, something like "Let's smash this bastard who watched the huana die and did nothing". So they must have been around even before the cataclysm.

 

The water dragon left me confused as well. Isn't he supposed to be one of the three original guardians that Ngati gave to the huana? If so, wouldn't he have to have been born before the cataclysm?

[Palas]

Did the game ever account for the Ngati/Ondra conundrum?

 

I mean, the Huana living on Ukaizo entered into a covenant with Ngati (and enjoyed the protection provided by her three guardian dragons) before the Engwithans arrived on the island. The problem here is that Ondra didn't even exist at that point in time and that she, according to the Guardian, created/activated Ondra's Mortar soon after the Engwithans vanished (i.e. ascended to godhood). The ancestral watershaping form can be found on Ukaizo, so it must mean that they acquired that ability from Ngati (who can't be Ondra) before the cataclysm.

Well, i can't remember, the game tell's you, that the pact with Ngati and watershaping were made before the engwithans became gods. Even if the Huana tell so, it could be false. Maybe the Huana pray to Ngati before the engwithans and so the engwithans get the inspiration for Ondra?

[Yria]

Would be funny if there used to be a real Ngati before the Engwithans, a Ngati who gave the huana their watershaping powers and whose name Ondra later usurped, which resulted in the watershaping art's gradual decline.

[LordInsane]

 

Did the game ever account for the Ngati/Ondra conundrum?

 

I mean, the Huana living on Ukaizo entered into a covenant with Ngati (and enjoyed the protection provided by her three guardian dragons) before the Engwithans arrived on the island. The problem here is that Ondra didn't even exist at that point in time and that she, according to the Guardian, created/activated Ondra's Mortar soon after the Engwithans vanished (i.e. ascended to godhood). The ancestral watershaping form can be found on Ukaizo, so it must mean that they acquired that ability from Ngati (who can't be Ondra) before the cataclysm.

the only thing i came up with was that the ancient huana had their own god Ngati (whatever it was, maybe something akin to a supped-up water dragon or something similar), and perhaps it died with ukaizo, and ondra only took the name for some reason? though that still doesn't make much sense, i admit.

 

Interpretatio graeca does not seem unlikely to have been a tool both for the Engwithans and the new gods themselves to spread belief in the Engwithan gods, so Ondra assuming the guise of a pre-existing huana goddess called Ngati appears perfectly reasonable.

 

That said, it is my understanding that the Engwithans created their missionary effort to spread the faith in their gods after they had created them and hence it is not an inconsistency for gods to have acted in areas prior to the Engwithans reaching them (if not by a large margin, in terms of generations), and that the Ionni Brathr cataclysm occurred after the Engwithans had spread their faith across known Eora, eg. significantly after the creation of the gods, and even the Engwithans reaching Ukaizo.

[Insolentius]

I found the timing of the whole Ngati/Ondra/watershaping covenant thing confusing, too. I don't think the game ever accounts for it. I just assumed there was a significant time gap, same as Tarlonniel.

 

I'm a little hazy on the guardians. I believe the watershaper dragon says it wasn't even born when the cataclysm happened. The guardian of Ukaizo has a lot of knowledge about what happened before the gods came into existence, but is that because it was created before the gods, or was it given the knowledge afterwards, when it was put there as a guard after the destruction?

 

The water dragon left me confused as well. Isn't he supposed to be one of the three original guardians that Ngati gave to the huana? If so, wouldn't he have to have been born before the cataclysm?

The trio of dragons that guarded Ukaizo before the Engwithans arrived (and whom the Engwithans transformed into the Guardian) were a different bunch .

 

 

The water dragon was born/created after the cataclysm, but these three were there before.

[Insolentius]

 

 

Did the game ever account for the Ngati/Ondra conundrum?

 

I mean, the Huana living on Ukaizo entered into a covenant with Ngati (and enjoyed the protection provided by her three guardian dragons) before the Engwithans arrived on the island. The problem here is that Ondra didn't even exist at that point in time and that she, according to the Guardian, created/activated Ondra's Mortar soon after the Engwithans vanished (i.e. ascended to godhood). The ancestral watershaping form can be found on Ukaizo, so it must mean that they acquired that ability from Ngati (who can't be Ondra) before the cataclysm.

the only thing i came up with was that the ancient huana had their own god Ngati (whatever it was, maybe something akin to a supped-up water dragon or something similar), and perhaps it died with ukaizo, and ondra only took the name for some reason? though that still doesn't make much sense, i admit.

 

 

That said, it is my understanding that the Engwithans created their missionary effort to spread the faith in their gods after they had created them and hence it is not an inconsistency for gods to have acted in areas prior to the Engwithans reaching them (if not by a large margin, in terms of generations), and that the Ionni Brathr cataclysm occurred after the Engwithans had spread their faith across known Eora, eg. significantly after the creation of the gods, and even the Engwithans reaching Ukaizo.

 

The Guardian mentions (or maybe it was his bestiary entry) that there was a short period of 'quiet' preceding the activation of Ondra's Mortar and the ensuing cataclysm. The thing is that the dragon trio entered into a covenant with the Ancient Huana before the gods were created (i.e. before the Engwithans who worked with the Huana on Ukaizo to create the wheel arrived there and ascended). The activation of the wheel was a crucial step for the apotheosis (it's their source of energy), so the Engwithans who worked on it couldn't have been missionaries.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Insolentius

[Yria]

The trio of dragons that guarded Ukaizo before the Engwithans arrived (and whom the Engwithans transformed into the Guardian) were a different bunch .

The water dragon was born/created after the cataclysm, but these three were there before.

 

Ah, thank you, I missed that detail.

 

By the way, was the cataclysm the huana refer to the same one that was causes by a piece of Ionni Brathr falling into the sea?

[Casper]

 

The trio of dragons that guarded Ukaizo before the Engwithans arrived (and whom the Engwithans transformed into the Guardian) were a different bunch .

The water dragon was born/created after the cataclysm, but these three were there before.

 

Ah, thank you, I missed that detail.

 

By the way, was the cataclysm the huana refer to the same one that was causes by a piece of Ionni Brathr falling into the sea?

 

i figured the cataclysm that the huana were referring to was a two parter, related to the creation of the god mechanism and the initial destruction of ukaizo, figured the engwithans thought why stop with murdering our own people, why not consume our allies as well (cataclysm act1 -- ukaizo's people consumed by god vampire entities), and the whole super-storm weather what-have-you (cataclysm act 2 conjure surging super hurricanes) was to erase the evidence, and prevent kith from entering ukaizo and messing with reincarnation or their meal ticket. 

 

though, just don't know what the timing might look like, assuming any of that is correct. 

[merinslips]

 

 "Why couldn't it be that there existed only one superstrong soul in the beginning that fragmented? Some would even call that god. "

 

I bet this will be canon.

[Rheios]

The Guardian mentions (or maybe it was his bestiary entry) that there was a short period of 'quiet' preceding the activation of Ondra's Mortar and the ensuing cataclysm. The thing is that the dragon trio entered into a covenant with the Ancient Huana before the gods were created (i.e. before the Engwithans who worked with the Huana on Ukaizo to create the wheel arrived there and ascended). The activation of the wheel was a crucial step for the apotheosis (it's their source of energy), so the Engwithans who worked on it couldn't have been missionaries.

 

I believe the apotheosis didn't kill all the Engiwthans who worked on it, but thousands of volunteers in Sun and Shadow. I imagine there was a similar sacrifice to activate whatever machine Eothas eventually destroyed that was controlling the wheel. Iovora and Thaos were both Engwithans and their arguments over the Gods was a result of Thaos proselytizing and Iovora finding out the truth and, when spreading it, being condemned and killed. I think, once the religion had caught on and everyone believed in the Engwithan gods, the remaining Engwithans probably killed and/or sacrificed themselves further. So I think the first activation in Sun and Shadow, and at Ukaizo probably weren't immediately catastrophic. So far as gaining Ugati's favor before meeting the Engwithans, that doesn't mean Ondra didn't exist already. It wouldn't shock me if the newly created god found some worshippers and softened them up for alliance, and eventual sacrifice, by the Engwithans. Although how long this all took and the timelines seem fuzzy and inaccurate to me. 

[Camonge]

Just finished the game. I was also puzzled by this.  My 2 cents:

 

Engwithians created (or at least drastically changed) the In-Between, not the Beyond.  Ukaizo was the "switchboard" to channel souls, as Sawyer spoke. Adra done most of natural processes pre-apotheosis. Bekarna research shows some insight on cosmic role as well. Post Eothas Folly, the extra layer is broken and the natural adra/star signature cycle needs to be restored.

 

I believe it's very akin to the nitrogen cycle IRL. Engwithian meddling not unlike anthropocene.

 

The different "better" endings hint about kith looking in the past for the "natural", pre-apotheosis cycle, or animancers trying a new technological approach. It's a shame this dilemma was not fairly presented in our talks with the gods.