Alchemy: What does it do now?

[Enoch]

I've only been able to play the game for a few hours thus far, and one thing I've noticed is that the alchemy skill isn't having all the same effects it did in the Beta. I'm very early in the game, and I haven't been cheating in items, so my observations have been based mostly on Whiteleaf and basic healing potions. Based on quick observations and tooltips, the Alchemy skill longer appears to affect potency of the items-- just duration. (Which, for a basic healing potion, does nothing.) Also the Nalpazca subclass description states that all drug effects are at +10 Power Level, which is the first time I recall seeing Power Level referenced with regard to consumables.

 

I'm not complaining, mind you. Beta alchemy was rather crazily overpowered, so some nerfing was necessary. I'm just trying to figure out what the rules are here.

 

I'm planning to test this more thoroughly this evening (I'll update the thread), but in the interim, I figured it was worth getting a thread started to see if anybody else had observations to share.

 

(Also, it'd be nice if the game had any documentation on Drug Crash effects.)

Edited May 9, 2018 by Enoch

[PIRI]

As far as I know it increases the duration of potions(pretty much).

[Enoch]

OK, results of further testing: 

 

Alchemy does effect duration predictably, and magnitude unpredictably.  All of this is assuming that the tooltips, where available, are accurate.  (I haven't noticed any discrepancies, but there were instances in Pillars 1 when they were unreliable.)

 

I think "Power Level" in the Nalpazca description and "Level" in the tooltips mean Alchemy skill (without Party Assist), plus 1/2 Character level, rounded down.  (I.e., 1 for each Power Level after the first, but with multiclasses treated as single-classes.) 

 

Nalpazca boosts Power Level by 10 for certain elements of Drug effects, but not others.  Duration yes, but most magnitudes, no.  The per-tic healing of Whiteleaf is the only magnitude effect I've seen so far that it contributes to.  Whiteleaf REF bonus, both Deadeye bonuses, and Ripple Sponge Attribute bonuses appear to be the same as they would be for a non-Nalpazca of equivalent level/ALC.

 

There is, however, something weird in the "level" calculations in my party.  Ed and Xoti, both level 3, one multiclassed and one single-classed, are both getting a "level" bonus.  The PC (multiclassed Nalpazca) is not.  Maybe a protagonist-related bug?  Or maybe Eder is bugged in that it should be tracking Power Level like abilities do, and the game isn't recognizing that he's multi-classed?  I don't think it's related to the Nalpazca bonus, because the effect is the same on potions where that wouldn't be a factor.

 

Alchemy's effects on Durations appear consistent:  5% per "Level."  INT bonus also applies. 

 

On magnitude, it varies a lot.  Some have tooltips, some don't.  I see a clear 10% per "Level" for some stats, 5% for others, and it's even weirder for some.  For example, the ACC boost from Deadeye appears to be a flat 5% plus 1 percentage point per ALC rank, the Attribute bonuses for Ripple Sponge are 3 plus 0.25 points per ALC rank, and the Armor bonus from a Potion of Spirit Shield gains 0.2 points per ALC level, all with no adjustment for character level.  Conversely, pure healing potions get a bonus from character level, but no boost from Alchemy. 

 

MIG bonus is also added to healing, but not to buffs.

 

General Drugs stuff:

 

You can only have 1 Drug effect at a time.

 

Crash penalties vary by Drug.  They last from when the effect ends until you either Rest or take another Drug.  If you use a different Drug to "recover," the crash penalty from the first one doesn't come back.  (I.e., you only have the Crash penalty from the most recent drug you've taken.)

Edited May 10, 2018 by Enoch

[axedice]

Nalpazca boosts Power Level by 10 for certain elements of Drug effects, but not others.  Duration yes, but most magnitudes, no.  The per-tic healing of Whiteleaf is the only magnitude effect I've seen so far that it contributes to.  Whiteleaf REF bonus, both Deadeye bonuses, and Ripple Sponge Attribute bonuses appear to be the same as they would be for a non-Nalpazca of equivalent level/ALC.

 

I thought Nalpazca's power level bonus on drugs not reflecting was a bug, but I missed the heal factor of whiteleaf. So "some" aspects of drugs are affected by power level and some are not? How are we supposed to know? That is some sloppy design.

[Takkik]

All of this is assuming that the tooltips, where available, are accurate.

 

but lot of tooltips aren't accurate. Tested fungus poison with a level 20 char, the tooltip still say 9 raw dmg / tick, but when using it vs a dummy it's actually 34/tick. Don't know if the scaling come from alchemy, level or both. Lot of dot tooltip don't reflect the reality (and some show dmg per tick, other total dmg...).

[Shagrim]

I tested some on my Multiclass Nalpazca monk/Streetfighter.

 

Got these results (used the same gear throughout the test):

Game version: v1.1.1.0064

 

Level 1 Alchemy 3

Duration 311.8 sec

Whiteleaf  +13 Willl, 4.3 HP / 3 sec

Coral Snuff +18% Action Speed, +6.5 Deflection, +8 Reflex

Mouth Char -7% dmg taken, +18% dmg with weapons

Deadeye +8 accuracy, +18% interrupt on Hit

 

Level 20 Alchemy 3

Duration 368.5 sec

Whiteleaf  +13 Willl, 5.1 HP / 3 sec

Coral Snuff +18% Action Speed, +6.5 Deflection, +8 Reflex

Mouth Char -7% dmg taken, +18% dmg with weapons

Deadeye +8 accuracy, +18% interrupt on Hit

 

Level 20 Alchemy 20

Duration 548.1 sec

Whiteleaf  +32 Willl, 14.4 HP / 3 sec

Coral Snuff +37% Action Speed, +16 Deflection, +27 Reflex

Mouth Char -16% dmg taken, +37% dmg with weapons

Deadeye +27 accuracy, +37% interrupt on Hit

 

Reflection on results: Wow alchemy is awesome :D

[grasida]

What about in 1.2? I’m pretty sure alchemy no longer affects the strength of bonuses from drugs at all except healing from white leaf. I haven’t checked what it does with potions. A skill available to everyone shouldn’t obviate class powers, but I wish it boosted drugs a little more than duration.

[djinnxy]

What about in 1.2? 

What 1.2? I turned beta off after that. With 1.2 no there's point to taking alchemy or nalpazca. They over nerfed it. Poison spells are now next to useless on the few things they effect. Druid took a huge hit for that while wizard gets buffed except for ryngrams length and the very few poison spells they had. I don't think they really care about class balance or distinction at all so the argument of cheesing with skills is pointless. If they are going to make combat skills useless they may as well remove them completely from the game. It takes up file space.

[knownastherat]

There is a point to taking Alchemy in 1.2: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103043-patch-120-updates-thread/?p=2065046

[djinnxy]

There is a point to taking Alchemy in 1.2: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103043-patch-120-updates-thread/?p=2065046

I think what you're getting at there is the poison single target damage to the few things vulnerable to poison. I'm not understanding why I would want that when I could take explosives and do a damage type that mobs aren't immune to and do that damage to multiple enemies. That's even after the nerf to explosives. So you are right there is a point. It is a very fine and specialized point useful in some specific instances. It's not really worth spending the precious points on when you can spend points in something useful in every situation and equally as powerful.

[knownastherat]

You made a general statement which is false. If you would say that you do not find Alchemy in 1.2 useful, I would not bother to react because I don't really care how you play. Besides, Alchemy boosts healing potions, and durations, which again some might find useful while others not. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by knownastherat

[djinnxy]

You made a general statement which is false. If you would say that you do not find Alchemy in 1.2 useful, I would not bother to react because I don't really care how you play. Besides, Alchemy boosts healing potions, and durations, which again some might find useful while others not. 

And I acknowledged that "useless" was hyperbole in the reply. I think you understand that what I meant was why take a skill that is subpar when I have a better choice. "I think I'm going to take the skill that is effective 25% as much as the one that works all the time equally as effective as the other skill does in that 25%," said no one ever.

[UltimaLuminaire]

I found poisons to be more useful in tackling Splintered Reef early rather than explosives, and the most useful explosive (the lightning one) is getting nerfed. I am totally up for abusing poisons more than other consumables, especially with barbarian builds since Spirit Tornado already hits like a grenade and more frequently anyway.

"I think I'm going to take the skill that is effective 25% as much as the one that works all the time" is definitely what I will gun for if that 25% happens to be something that snowballs you or prevents you from instantly losing the game when nothing else will kill you. This goes for rogue-likes and actual table top games like D&D (where running into a dragon, illithid, or beholder can just get you killed). Splintered Reef is just huge on everything, and every run I make abuses going there to snowball.

Edited June 30, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[djinnxy]

Ok said 1 guy ever.

[knownastherat]

 

You made a general statement which is false. If you would say that you do not find Alchemy in 1.2 useful, I would not bother to react because I don't really care how you play. Besides, Alchemy boosts healing potions, and durations, which again some might find useful while others not. 

And I acknowledged that "useless" was hyperbole in the reply. I think you understand that what I meant was why take a skill that is subpar when I have a better choice. "I think I'm going to take the skill that is effective 25% as much as the one that works all the time equally as effective as the other skill does in that 25%," said no one ever.

 

 

I was just clarifying just as you were.

 

I do agree that Explosives are more versatile when it comes to damage and CC and I do not support the changes to Alchemy. I was planning a build with points spread across Alchemy/Explosives/Arcana aimed at versatility and options not at maximizing benefits of a particular branch and now I am more or less ****ed because of .. balance, but this is just a cool story. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by knownastherat

[djinnxy]

Honestly after over 450 hrs I'm getting a little burnt out anyway on it. I'm to the point where they can make changes and I won't notice until I pick up the game again in 2 years in a lull time for good game releases. I'll probably finish my now non-beta play through offline and hang up my hat till kingmaker hits the shelves.