Help theorycrafting a Cipher/Monk combo?

[DmC298]

I'm new to theorycrafting but I thought there could be some cool synergies with a Shattered Pillar / Soul Blade combo. I'm not in the beta, but here's my concept:

 

I would basically try to leverage Swift Strikes --> Swift Flurry plus crit conversion passives plus Hearth Orlan to build resources as fast as possible and just repeatedly slam down Soul Annihilations. There are also a fair number of crit-enhancing passives in both trees, as well as penetration bonuses.

 

For weapons I would do unarmed / rapiers.

 

My questions are:

1. What would a good stat spread look like for this build?

2. What cipher spells would be helpful for this? Is it worth taking shred spells (which compete with Soul Annihilation)? Or more expensive CC?

3. Any other issues with this idea?

 

Thanks.

Edited May 7, 2018 by DmC298

[Winterheart]

Your cipher spells do no matter. All your focus should get dumped into soul annihilation.  You will most likely want to run a high might and high dex so you can build focus and wounds as fast as possible to get good uptime on swift strikes and keep a quick flow of focus.

[KDubya]

For stats maybe something like this:

 

Might 18 - it's multiplicative now so it'll be great with your soul whip bonus and for soul annihilation

Con - 10 - I don't like to dump and health is needed

Dex - 14 - faster actions, maybe drop to 12 to add to Perception

Per - 16 - more accuracy for more crits. I think 16 is enough to find all traps and such, maybe go even higher to 18?

Int - 10 - Longer duration is always nice but you're going for more of an up tempo guy rather than a CC'er

Res - 10 - Don't like to dump but with Clarity of Agony available to lessen affliction duration by 50% you could maybe drop a few or a lot here

 

 

 

Grabbing a few good cipher spells isn't a bad idea. You'll have to get a Cipher ability every time you gain a power level so keep that in mind when you level up so you don't waste a free pick on a universal ability like dual wielding instead of using a dedicated Cipher level up. Having an AoE attack or CC is always nice, Phantom Foes is cheap and gets all enemies 'flanked' for +10 to hit and sets up any sneak attackers nicely, well worth a pick and the focus needed.

 

You'll want to get Rooting Pain as a Shattered Pillar as every time you gain a wound you'll activate it. Since you gain wounds by causing damage you'll get a lot, just need to be below max wounds so you'll need to spam something that costs wounds. Force of Anguish is cheap at one or two wounds and causes an interrupt which Rooting Pain also does, maybe better to spam Torment's Reach at three wounds and upgraded causes an AoE cone stun which is very nice for minimizing incoming damage and helps get crits too I believe.

 

You have a nice concept going and it has great synergy. The key features of soul annihilation, soul whip, Torment's Reach and Rooting Pain are all available early, its not some Dreamer Build that only comes into its own at Powerlevel seven at level 19.

[prototype00]

KDubya, would you rather go for Swift Flurry or Lightning fists, if it were up to you?

[dunehunter]

Priest spirtual weapons have +50% lash damage, monk can get +80% lash once they have max wound, I'd rather go Nalpazca if multiclass. You can use drug before battle, activate dance of death, and u will reach max wound after 6 secs. Then enjoy the big lash bonus with whatever class u multiclass to, better with some class that has damage bonus, like cipher and rogue.

 

Shattered pillar might be better single classes because your ultimate ability Whipser of Wind cost wounds and do a lot full attacks, u can spam it since shattered pillar generate wound by attacking. Also u get upgraded Torment reach earlier, as a shattered pillar u can spam it crazily and watch all enemies around stunned. OP as hell

Edited May 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[DmC298]

For stats maybe something like this:

 

Might 18 - it's multiplicative now so it'll be great with your soul whip bonus and for soul annihilation

Con - 10 - I don't like to dump and health is needed

Dex - 14 - faster actions, maybe drop to 12 to add to Perception

Per - 16 - more accuracy for more crits. I think 16 is enough to find all traps and such, maybe go even higher to 18?

Int - 10 - Longer duration is always nice but you're going for more of an up tempo guy rather than a CC'er

Res - 10 - Don't like to dump but with Clarity of Agony available to lessen affliction duration by 50% you could maybe drop a few or a lot here

 

 

 

Grabbing a few good cipher spells isn't a bad idea. You'll have to get a Cipher ability every time you gain a power level so keep that in mind when you level up so you don't waste a free pick on a universal ability like dual wielding instead of using a dedicated Cipher level up. Having an AoE attack or CC is always nice, Phantom Foes is cheap and gets all enemies 'flanked' for +10 to hit and sets up any sneak attackers nicely, well worth a pick and the focus needed.

 

You'll want to get Rooting Pain as a Shattered Pillar as every time you gain a wound you'll activate it. Since you gain wounds by causing damage you'll get a lot, just need to be below max wounds so you'll need to spam something that costs wounds. Force of Anguish is cheap at one or two wounds and causes an interrupt which Rooting Pain also does, maybe better to spam Torment's Reach at three wounds and upgraded causes an AoE cone stun which is very nice for minimizing incoming damage and helps get crits too I believe.

 

You have a nice concept going and it has great synergy. The key features of soul annihilation, soul whip, Torment's Reach and Rooting Pain are all available early, its not some Dreamer Build that only comes into its own at Powerlevel seven at level 19.

 

Thanks. I figure that I will move a couple resolve points into perception for dialogue purposes. Was also not aware of rooting pain.

Does Swift Flurry / multi-attack bonus make up for moving a few points from dex?

 

KDubya, would you rather go for Swift Flurry or Lightning fists, if it were up to you?

 

It looks to me like Lightning Fists is more reliable in a majority of situations but I'm looking to maximize number of attacks too.

[Dralec]

For this combo, which one would make more sense: biting or draining whip?

 

Everybody on this forum seems to be saying that soulblade = biting whip. But since biting whip is now only +30% and draining whip is +20% AND +100% focus gain wouldn't it make more sense if the idea is to use soul annihilation as often as possible? I don't have the beta but it seems unlikely that 10% bonus damage is more deadly than twice as many soul annhilation... no?

[DmC298]

For this combo, which one would make more sense: biting or draining whip?

 

Everybody on this forum seems to be saying that soulblade = biting whip. But since biting whip is now only +30% and draining whip is +20% AND +100% focus gain wouldn't it make more sense if the idea is to use soul annihilation as often as possible? I don't have the beta but it seems unlikely that 10% bonus damage is more deadly than twice as many soul annhilation... no?

Also seconding this question. I'm not sure if we have enough info to do the math on this (not in the beta, and I haven't seen numbers on Soul Annihilation yet)

[KDubya]

For this combo, which one would make more sense: biting or draining whip?

 

Everybody on this forum seems to be saying that soulblade = biting whip. But since biting whip is now only +30% and draining whip is +20% AND +100% focus gain wouldn't it make more sense if the idea is to use soul annihilation as often as possible? I don't have the beta but it seems unlikely that 10% bonus damage is more deadly than twice as many soul annhilation... no?

 

If those are the number then draining whip looks pretty good as you'll be getting the big damage fro soul annihilation rather than auto attacks.

 

I like the lightning lash instead of the possible extra hit on crit. The hit on crit was pretty buggy and exploitable in the beta. I try and avoid broken exploits, also why I'm not big on Fighters and cleave cheese.

[Dralec]

Thanks KDubya.

 

What would you advise for this combo between unarmed or dual-wielding weapons (and if so which kind of weapons)?

Since you said Power level matters a lot with the monk fighting unarmed, I suppose when multiclassing him it is more effective to use weapons since you lose on power level, isn't it?

[prototype00]

Nature Godlike gets +2 power level whenever you activate Swift Strikes.

Edited May 8, 2018 by prototype00

[Ciphys]

 

For this combo, which one would make more sense: biting or draining whip?

 

Everybody on this forum seems to be saying that soulblade = biting whip. But since biting whip is now only +30% and draining whip is +20% AND +100% focus gain wouldn't it make more sense if the idea is to use soul annihilation as often as possible? I don't have the beta but it seems unlikely that 10% bonus damage is more deadly than twice as many soul annhilation... no?

 

If those are the number then draining whip looks pretty good as you'll be getting the big damage fro soul annihilation rather than auto attacks.

 

I like the lightning lash instead of the possible extra hit on crit. The hit on crit was pretty buggy and exploitable in the beta. I try and avoid broken exploits, also why I'm not big on Fighters and cleave cheese.

 

FYI: I hear that they fixed cleave by making it temporarily apply a "debuff" on all enemies hit, which prevents cleave from self triggering from other cleave attacks... so it should work in a more balanced way now. You might already know this though ^^

Edited May 8, 2018 by Ciphys

[KDubya]

Thanks KDubya.

 

What would you advise for this combo between unarmed or dual-wielding weapons (and if so which kind of weapons)?

Since you said Power level matters a lot with the monk fighting unarmed, I suppose when multiclassing him it is more effective to use weapons since you lose on power level, isn't it?

 

The thing is Monk fists are really good. They do more damage per hit than a sword 16.5 vs 16 avg damage and attack at the fast speed of daggers.

 

The two powerlevel deficit between single and multi is +1 penetration, +4 accuracy and +15% damage. This is also what you gain from Nature Godlike racial which runs off of Swift Strikes so it'll always be in effect.

 

So I'd be hard pressed to not pick a Nature Godlike for a Monk.

 

If the multi adds more than what you lose due to power level than you're golden. A Soul Blade gets you at least +20% damage and access to all the Soul Blade goodies so its a fair trade off.

 

Barring some sort of immunity I'd avoid weapons. Maybe a dagger in the off hand would be good for the +10 deflection modal in case you need to tank better or get more out of Dance of Death. Clubs and flails have debuff attacks to will and reflex which could be useful.

[Dralec]

Thanks again for the answer KDubya, that helps tremendously to think about my build.

 

Do you know if the damage from Soul Annhilation generate wounds for a Shattered pillars monk?

It says damage from melee weapon and soul annhilation is a melee attack but since the damage is an additional effect...

Has anyone tested this?

[Hetmasteeen]

The thing is Monk fists are really good. They do more damage per hit than a sword 16.5 vs 16 avg damage and attack at the fast speed of daggers.

 

 

 

But what about when you get better weapons mid-game or soulbound weapons with their different enhancements. I understand fist damage scales with level but even so I'd imagine mid-tier weapons and above will at some point surpass the damage of fists.

[Winterheart]

I will be trying out the Transcended Ascendant(Shattered Pillars/Ascendant) as my first char. It looks like a combination that could have really good potential. Most likely as a nature godlike for the added power levels.

[Raven Darkholme]

I'll start with a monk/cipher as well, but not sure on subclasses yet.

I'll play solo, so shattered pillar with 5 max wounds would be bad for me, since Ill always gain wounds from damage.

The other monk subclasses don't seem appealing at all, Helwalker only has 3 max wounds and the drug monk seems totally unviable solo.

For cipher I'm torn between Ascendant and Soul Blade, Soul Blade seems much better early game but Ascendant seems like something you'd only be able to fully appreciate if you actually played it...

[Winterheart]

I'll start with a monk/cipher as well, but not sure on subclasses yet.

I'll play solo, so shattered pillar with 5 max wounds would be bad for me, since Ill always gain wounds from damage.

The other monk subclasses don't seem appealing at all, Helwalker only has 3 max wounds and the drug monk seems totally unviable solo.

For cipher I'm torn between Ascendant and Soul Blade, Soul Blade seems much better early game but Ascendant seems like something you'd only be able to fully appreciate if you actually played it...

The monk/ascendant is likely very micro heavy. Soul Blade is probably the easier of the two, but without having tried it yet my gut feeling tells me ascendant will be better in the long run

[Hetmasteeen]

 

I'll start with a monk/cipher as well, but not sure on subclasses yet.

I'll play solo, so shattered pillar with 5 max wounds would be bad for me, since Ill always gain wounds from damage.

The other monk subclasses don't seem appealing at all, Helwalker only has 3 max wounds and the drug monk seems totally unviable solo.

For cipher I'm torn between Ascendant and Soul Blade, Soul Blade seems much better early game but Ascendant seems like something you'd only be able to fully appreciate if you actually played it...

The monk/ascendant is likely very micro heavy. Soul Blade is probably the easier of the two, but without having tried it yet my gut feeling tells me ascendant will be better in the long run

 

 

I have very limited experience with cypher but what makes ascendant specfically more micro heavy? 

[Winterheart]

 

 

I'll start with a monk/cipher as well, but not sure on subclasses yet.

I'll play solo, so shattered pillar with 5 max wounds would be bad for me, since Ill always gain wounds from damage.

The other monk subclasses don't seem appealing at all, Helwalker only has 3 max wounds and the drug monk seems totally unviable solo.

For cipher I'm torn between Ascendant and Soul Blade, Soul Blade seems much better early game but Ascendant seems like something you'd only be able to fully appreciate if you actually played it...

The monk/ascendant is likely very micro heavy. Soul Blade is probably the easier of the two, but without having tried it yet my gut feeling tells me ascendant will be better in the long run

 

 

I have very limited experience with cypher but what makes ascendant specfically more micro heavy? 

 

It is more the combination. You want to use the wounds from the monk class to quickly build focus to enter the ascended state, then once ascended hits you want to be able to use as many cipher abilities as you can to dish out damage in that window before reverting back to the preascended state and start the cycle anew.

[Dem5957]

As a monk, you want to pound everything to gain focus, then use soul ahnilation. There are a few cipher powers that are too good to leave on the table, like soul ignition.

 

I wonder if soul anihilation works with long pain?

[Lokithecat]

 

I'll start with a monk/cipher as well, but not sure on subclasses yet.

I'll play solo, so shattered pillar with 5 max wounds would be bad for me, since Ill always gain wounds from damage.

The other monk subclasses don't seem appealing at all, Helwalker only has 3 max wounds and the drug monk seems totally unviable solo.

For cipher I'm torn between Ascendant and Soul Blade, Soul Blade seems much better early game but Ascendant seems like something you'd only be able to fully appreciate if you actually played it...

The monk/ascendant is likely very micro heavy. Soul Blade is probably the easier of the two, but without having tried it yet my gut feeling tells me ascendant will be better in the long run

 

 

Helwalker has max wounds of 10; I'm running a Berserker Helwalker, and it outdamages (per hit) everyone else in the party, including Legendary two handed weapons... and between Flurry, and Frenzy, attacks much more often.  

First attempt at a monk Multi class, I tried Soul Blade, figured the 20% (Draining) would be more damage, but it was too squishy.  Berserker added in some much needed Defense / Armor and the damage ended up being a lot higher anyway.