Stacking Rules

[theBalthazar]

Hello,

 

Personnally, I have a problem with stacking rules.

 

Warrior stance + Zealous focus = suppressed by Devotion for the faithful and each others. three investments/three abilites  points : only one return.

 

Half-sword (Proficiency) + Tenacious = suppressed. etc etc

 

So... I think we going to a wrong direction.

 

The essence of Pillars 2 is fun of Multiclass associations. The main fun, for me. 

 

If everything is locked up, the search for good/original associations no longer exists.

 

Question for you, what is the point to pick up zealous focus or warrior stance if devotion for the faithful remplace totally them ? A minor bonus before casting ? For one ability point ? Without me. The ultimate FUNCTION of chose x or y abilities ? I prefer take another ability now... AND maybe even another class. (Worse case : Paladin+Fighter and an external devotion of the faith. Loss ? 2 abilities points useless....)

 

A don't stacking rule create dead abilities ! and make the highest values always the best choices.

 

Monk + Berserker ? Tenacious+Tenacious Supressed. One ability useless.

Fighter + Paladin ? Warrior stance + Zealous focus Supressed. One ability useless.

 

Why if I take half sword I create a bad build with the boost of tenacious (berserker / Monk atm). Stay only a malus of deflection (-20 so not a little amount...)

 

For me, it is a bad decision. We do that when we do not control his game system and we do not know how to balance.

 

It attack creativity. It is not good.

 

And if it is for single class balance... There a better way :

 

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Because there is a another problem. Nerf of paladin is good for me... For multiclasses. For single, not particulary. There is a shift. The perfect tool is yet Power level.

 

Flame of devotion

Accuracy 20

Fire Damage : 20 % [+x % by power level]

 

Single class : 50 % at level 20 (+30 %)

Multiclass : 35 % at level 20 (+15 %)

 

Balanced.

 

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EDIT :

Let's talk of an another exemple. A concrete exemple, made by obsidian himself. I am player of Tyranny and there is an ability in Power Category.

 

Stance : Might. [+4 penetration, don't stack]

 

I have NEVER took this stance. Why ?

 

Because once I have understand that magic give a widely better boost of penetration (From memory +11 ?), this little tool become totally useless.

 

End of the game. This stance will NEVER, never serve.

 

So,  this stance is only a trap, for newbie, no more...

Edited February 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

Devoted + Tenacious = not suppressed.

 

Because on top of everything stated in the OP, let’s make stacking rules unpredictably inconsistent.

 

A Goldpact Knight’s Gilded Enmity ability is suppressed by Tenacious even though they’re not the same source/ability. Why? No reason—just like that. Goldpact Knight/Berserker is a bad build, but there’s no way for a player to know this until the character’s rolled and they find out the two abilities that should have created a key synergy for the build don’t actually stack.

Edited February 3, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I agree, stacking should happen and the rules definitely need to be more consistent. Power level based abilities need to happen because as of now empower doesn't do much and you're better off using it to replenish your resources than on an ability.

[AndreaColombo]

as of now empower doesn't do much and you're better off using it to replenish your resources than on an ability.

 

Generally true with the exception of a few direct damage spells that become overly powerful when Empowered.

 

Power Level was supposed to do stuff, but with its inconsistent application it isn't really doing much at present.

Edited February 3, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I haven't cast many direct damage spells because they're so bad. Even with that being true none of the martial classes will bother with empowering an ability because they'd get a lot more mileage out of more uses. Hell, no caster would empower a debuff spell when they can cast it again if the malus(es) won't be upgraded.

[MaxQuest]

Personnaly, I have a problem with stacking rules.

 

1: Monk + Berserker ? Tenacious+Tenacious Supressed. One ability useless.

2: Fighter + Paladin ? Warrior stance + Zealous focus Supressed. One ability useless.

3: Warrior stance + Zealous focus = suppressed by Devotion for the faithful and each others. three investments/three abilites  points : only one return.

Hmm,

1. personally I'm fine with tenacious suppressing another tenacious, since it's same status effect. "Why both of them use tenacious" is another question.

2. I'm not completely fine with two different (!) and passive (!) effects not stacking with each other.

3. I'm completely not fine with a temporary buff, not stacking with a persistent (!) and passive (!) effect.

Edited February 3, 2018 by MaxQuest

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Solely concerning afflictions, I think the strongest positive and negative should apply(lower tier bonuses/afflictions get suppressed) and the end result should be the sum of both. So if you were to use Frenzy(Berserker) and Tactical Barrage, Instead of Acute(tier +2) completely suppressing Confused(tier -1) it would be downgraded to Smart(tier +1) Another example would be a Blind(tier -3) and Acute(tier +2) resulting in a Distracted(tier -1) affliction instead of being Blind.

Edited February 3, 2018 by KaineParker

[theBalthazar]

I agree with max.

 

CONTAINERS AND DECLINATION 1 to 3 (ABILITIES) = DON'T STACK

 

- Inspirations (Tenacious etc)

- Afflictions (Paralysed etc.)

 

Don't stack and include previous version of same type of inspiration. A good idea to remember it : a container only give once the bonus. I'm totally agree with that.

 

CORE ABILITIES = STACK

 

For me, a berserker must have a nominative Tenacious (outsource bonuses and remove the mention of inspiration). It is enough that a spell priest level 9 makes an easy buff perception+strength inspiration level 3, this criterion no longer has any interest. So it must remain unique.

 

SPECIFIC NOMINATIVE BONUS (ABILITIES) = STACK

 

- Attributes/4 defenses/Accuracy etc isolated. (Devotion of the faithful, Special Stances, auras etc.)

 

80 % of abilities of the game must stack. If not the player will start chasing the high values. Accuracy ? DEVOTION OF THE FAITHFUL !!! only, and I broke the game (no brain yes) etc.

 

PROFICIENCIES = STACK

 

- Modals (Half-Sword, With Tenacious for exemple etc)

 

You create a new system, you cannot relegate that to a unimportant thing. Especially because there is a heavy counterpart (incidentally object of the an another debate otherwise) More, it is not clear for the casual players. One tool = one function.

 

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So for me, only "containers" don't stack because it is logical and comprehensive. The interrest is to connect containers + isolated bonuses. If not, the pleasure of multiclass is near to 0. (And in any case, with too much "don't stack rules", it would favor classes with the best active abilities, or best core abilities...)

Edited February 4, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

They should add the creation of clear and consistent stacking rules to the Millenium problems ... I fear it shall never be solved.

[FreeKaner]

It should be fairly easy to allow temporary buffs, persistent effects and passives stacking with each other, while not allowing temporary buffs and persistent effects to stack within themselves. It would also be the best way to go on about it.

Edited February 6, 2018 by FreeKaner