Rogue abilities bugged (Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Backstab)

[Jojobobo]

I thought I'd make another thread here, in addition to the thread in the technical issues subforum, to give the issue wide coverage.

 

These abilities no longer stack with one another. If they were to stack additively with one another, you would get:

 

100% (base damage) + 50% (Sneak Attack) + 100% (Deathblows) = 250%

 

Or...

 

100% (base damage) + 50% (Sneak Attack) + 100% (Deathblows) + 150% (Backstab) = 400%

 

My damage range on my character after Might is 28-40:

 

 

This would give me a lowest possible damage before DR for Sneak Attack + Deathblows on a Hit of:

 

28 x 2.5 = 70

 

And lowest possible Sneak Attack + Deathblows + Backstab on a Hit:

 

28 x 4 = 112

 

However, the values I'm getting are, for Sneak Attack + Deathblows:

 

 

And Sneak Attack + Deathblows + Backstab on a Hit:

 

 

This damage is worse that what a Wizard can put out with some of his spells and decent Might, and definitely puts a lie on Rogues doing the "highest single target damage". This is also only using abilities from the base game, that have been present from day 1 of the release - and they're fundamentally bugged.

 

You know I love you Obsidian, but you don't make it easy for me to. I would recommend a hotfix, but of course you could just leave the core conceptual abilities for one of your classes fundamentally bugged, things like that always look good to a fanbase 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Jojobobo

[MaxQuest]

Damage bonuses are additive in PoE1.

2HS, Reckless Assault, Might, Weapon Quality (fine/exceptional/etc), Sneak Attack and Deathblows for sure.

Haven't tested Backstab though, but would expect the same. So:..

 

[14-20] * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.15 + 0.51) = [14-20] * 2.01 ~= [28-40] damage on normal hit

[14-20] * (2.01 + 0.5) = [14-20] * 2.51 ~= [35-50] damage on sneak attack hit

[14-20] * (2.01 + 0.5 + 1.0) = [14-20] * 3.51 ~= [49-70] damage on sneak attack + deathblows hit

[14-20] * (2.01 + 0.5 + 1.0 + 1.5) = [14-20] * 5.01 ~= [70-100] damage on sneak attack + deathblows + backstab hit

Edited January 15, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Jojobobo]

Right so they're additive with all the existing damage bonuses? I guess that make sense with these results, and there's certainly some egg on my face.

 

Still, that's definitely on the low side. I've mentioned elsewhere that any character using lvl 16 Novice's Suffering, using Sandals of the Forgotten Friar and having a Might in the mid 30s does about 35+ to 40+, and they hit substantially faster than a great sword (with 38 Might on a Barb, it's 40-46). Makes a Rogue seem a little pointless if a Barb can put out near to what they can (-80 damage for a full attack with both fists to a whole group with Carnage, as only the piddling base of fists scales with the Carnage malus) and at an even faster rate (DR non-withstanding, but still it doesn't make too much of a difference with that DPS).

 

As mentioned as well, Wizard spells also fall in this range; Might 30 Torrent of Flames, a spell-binding of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer Belt, does 64-96 damage at +15 accuracy in an AoE, with so a Wizards with this belt can easily drop 5 of these per rest in a single encounter. Given the huge bonus to accuracy too, they're probably much more likely to crit than a Rogue on everyone in the group.

 

I never had any idea how ridiculously underpowered Rogues with their own supposed niche ("highest single target damage"). This really makes them seem like an entirely pointless class, more or less. I know their damage is better with crits (I think with Rabbit Fur Gloves, Annihilation, Durgan-Refinement, Dungeon Delver and the Merciless Hand crits would do x2.3 damage [1 + 0.1 + 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.3], but that's still only roughly 161-230-ish damage on a single target), but that still seems lacklustre to me.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Jojobobo

[MaxQuest]

Right so they're additive with all the existing damage bonuses?

Yeap. Tooltip doesn't really mention that all these bonuses do apply only to base damage, but it's so...

 

I never had any idea how ridiculously underpowered Rogues with their own supposed niche ("highest single target damage").

Hehe, and that's also with multiple implemented buffs, that community in front with Elric was asking about)

 

P.S. After 3rd playthrough, I stopped looking at rogues and wizards as competitive damage dealers for PotD. Barbarians, DragonTrash chanters, Fire priests and power-damage-oriented ciphers kinda trump them by a decent margin.

P.P.S. Ok, you could make a decent rogue damage-dealer, around deathblows and damaging-scrolls spamming. But you would need to have unlimited amount of those.

Edited January 15, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Jojobobo]

 

Right so they're additive with all the existing damage bonuses?

Yeap. Tooltip doesn't really mention that all these bonuses do apply only to base damage, but it's so...

Yeah it really should say "base damage", it's thoroughly misleading.

 

Hehe, and that's also with multiple implemented buffs, that community in front with Elric was asking about)

P.S. After 3rd playthrough, I stopped looking at rogues and wizards as competitive damage dealers for PotD. Barbarians, DragonTrash chanters, Fire priests and power-damage-oriented ciphers kinda trump them by a decent margin.

P.P.S. Ok, you could make a decent rogue damage-dealer, around deathblows and damaging-scrolls spamming. But you would need to have unlimited amount of those.

I never had any idea how ridiculously underpowered Rogues with their own supposed niche ("highest single target damage").

 

 

Hmmm, I suppose the damage isn't so bad, but it does lead something to be desired (and I'd now consider Backstab and Finishing Blow to be pretty much pointless).

 

Using a Legendary Hours of St. Rumbalt, and a Might 35 (the top of what you can get going solo with a Rogue), then by my calcs for Sneak Attack Deathblows you get:

 

[14-20] * (1 + 0.55 + 0.2 + 0.15 + 0.75 + 0.5 + 1.0) = [14-20] * 4.15 ~= [58-83] damage on normal hit

 

What I was going to go for in terms of attack speed was DAoM (one from Angio's Gambesom, one from Quick Switch Twin Sting), Gauntlets of Swift Action and Durgan-Refinement, using Durgan-Reinforced Angio's Gambeson, for:

 

[1 + 0.05] - ((1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15) - 1) ~= 7% recovery

 

On a crit (without Rabbit Fur Gauntlets, to take Gauntlets of Swift Action), with the aforementioned Annihilation, Durgan-Refinement, Dungeon Delver and the Merciless Hand, the on crit range is (I forgot to factor in the +0.5 base crit damage above):

 

[58-82] * (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.3) = [58-83] * (2.7) ~= 157-224

 

With a 25% lash, before DR this is:

 

196-280

 

And your hit to crit can be made to 65% (Dirty Fighting +10%, Vicious Fighting +10%, Durgan-Refinement +20%, Gravestep +25%). If you use Withering Strike, Fearsome Strike and Sever the Soul, you can heavily debuff Fortitude, so your Prone from Overbearing (Hours of St. Rumbalt) that should be common from the 65% Deathblows should have 5ish seconds duration with 20ish Intellect.

 

So I guess stacking that altogether:

 

- 65% Hit to Crit, (which with Rogue accuracy being what it is, a sizeable there should be a sizeable hit window for that to occur in)

- 7% Recovery

- Constant Deathblows (more or less)

- 196 - 280 crit Deathblows damage range

 

Against even Turisulfus, worse case scenario so long as you can crit Deathblows him, with a Freezing lash and his 972 Endurance it would be:

 

[157 - 34 slash DR] + [39 - (17 * 0.25) freeze DR] = 123 + 35 = 158.

 

972 / 158 = 7 hits (rounded up from 6.15, given that the you'll need the first hit to try and set up Deathblows). Probably maximum 20 hits, with his trolly Deflection and Fortitude, but you're hitting fast. Not too bad at all.

 

I guess I've just talked myself back into the build not being so bad, I'll stick with it and hopefully it'll stay competitive with some of the more damaging builds (though not out-pacing them as you say).

Edited January 15, 2018 by Jojobobo

[champy]

 

 

Right so they're additive with all the existing damage bonuses?

Yeap. Tooltip doesn't really mention that all these bonuses do apply only to base damage, but it's so...

Yeah it really should say "base damage", it's thoroughly misleading.

 

Hehe, and that's also with multiple implemented buffs, that community in front with Elric was asking about)

P.S. After 3rd playthrough, I stopped looking at rogues and wizards as competitive damage dealers for PotD. Barbarians, DragonTrash chanters, Fire priests and power-damage-oriented ciphers kinda trump them by a decent margin.

P.P.S. Ok, you could make a decent rogue damage-dealer, around deathblows and damaging-scrolls spamming. But you would need to have unlimited amount of those.

I never had any idea how ridiculously underpowered Rogues with their own supposed niche ("highest single target damage").

 

 

Hmmm, I suppose the damage isn't so bad, but it does lead something to be desired (and I'd now consider Backstab and Finishing Blow to be pretty much pointless).

 

Using a Legendary Hours of St. Rumbalt, and a Might 35 (the top of what you can get going solo with a Rogue), then by my calcs for Sneak Attack Deathblows you get:

 

[14-20] * (1 + 0.55 + 0.2 + 0.15 + 0.75 + 0.5 + 1.0) = [14-20] * 4.15 ~= [58-83] damage on normal hit

 

What I was going to go for in terms of attack speed was DAoM (one from Angio's Gambesom, one from Quick Switch Twin Sting), Gauntlets of Swift Action and Durgan-Refinement, using Durgan-Reinforced Angio's Gambeson, for:

 

[1 + 0.05] - ((1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15) - 1) ~= 7% recovery

 

On a crit (without Rabbit Fur Gauntlets, to take Gauntlets of Swift Action), with the aforementioned Annihilation, Durgan-Refinement, Dungeon Delver and the Merciless Hand, the on crit range is (I forgot to factor in the +0.5 base crit damage above):

 

[58-82] * (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.3) = [58-83] * (2.7) ~= 157-224

 

With a 25% lash, before DR this is:

 

196-280

 

And your hit to crit can be made to 65% (Dirty Fighting +10%, Vicious Fighting +10%, Durgan-Refinement +20%, Gravestep +25%). If you use Withering Strike, Fearsome Strike and Sever the Soul, you can heavily debuff Fortitude, so your Prone from Overbearing (Hours of St. Rumbalt) that should be common from the 65% Deathblows should have 5ish seconds duration with 20ish Intellect.

 

So I guess stacking that altogether:

 

- 65% Hit to Crit, (which with Rogue accuracy being what it is, a sizeable there should be a sizeable hit window for that to occur in)

- 7% Recovery

- Constant Deathblows (more or less)

- 196 - 280 crit Deathblows damage range

 

Against even Turisulfus, worse case scenario so long as you can crit Deathblows him, with a Freezing lash and his 972 Endurance it would be:

 

[157 - 34 slash DR] + [39 - (17 * 0.25) freeze DR] = 123 + 35 = 158.

 

972 / 158 = 7 hits (rounded up from 6.15, given that the you'll need the first hit to try and set up Deathblows). Probably maximum 20 hits, with his trolly Deflection and Fortitude, but you're hitting fast. Not too bad at all.

 

I guess I've just talked myself back into the build not being so bad, I'll stick with it and hopefully it'll stay competitive with some of the more damaging builds (though not out-pacing them as you say).

 

 

Curious, but can you share your solo rouge build? 

[Jojobobo]

I've already done it, here - the one in the spoiler tags at the bottom. The only changes I would make are Blinding Strike -> Withering Strike, level 13 Sap, level 15 Fearsome Strike or Blinding Strike (keeping the Talents as they were, but I think I maybe have changed the order of them to 8 - Backstab, 10 - Two Weapon Fighting, 12 - Quick Switch, 14 - Wounding Binding). Finishing Blow still doesn't work with Backstab, and tbh you can get another +50% damage in Withering Strike, so I no longer think it's worth the effort.

 

The advantages of Fearsome Strike would be it's another source of Weakened (on top of Withering Stike and Sever the Soul) so your Overbearing Prone rolls (which should happen a lot, given you have 55% hit to crit after WM Pt. 1) are likely to crit from the Fortitude debuff. The advantage of Blinding Strike is that it's just a strong Deflection debuff, however to an extent you already have Sap for that, and Prone will also be a weaker semi-permanent Deflection debuff (Fearsome Strike is per rest, but with it's trolly durations that's not so much of a problem). I'm also pretty sure Twin Sting would allow for two rolls per Strike as it's two projectiles, so you can use it as an opener with Fearsome Strike and likely get a 30 second crit duration (if you graze with the affliction on the first roll, second roll is now rolling against Fortitude debuffed by -28, so the crit is likely).

 

There's no changes needing to be made to the equipment, I think the core equipment is solid but I would just suggest picking up also keeping Sanguine Plate (+2 Con, Exceptional) for enemies that shred you through Deflection hits (Skeletal Wizards, Slimes) or just when you feel there's a situational need. I was also probably going to have He Carries Many Scars on hand for additional healing for when I picked up Twin Sting (for another source of DAoM) - I hadn't decided whether to enchant it with +2 Dex and go for RIng of Thorns -> Iron Circle for tough fights, or just to leave it at the +2 Con (given that you have to wait a while to get the Iron Circle). Early game the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer gives you some absurd bonuses, so stick with that until you get the good stuff.

 

I was getting through some of Act III upscaled well enough (I took both Spirit Spiral and Munacra Arret, pre-buffing with food before a lot of encounters which I wouldn't normally do but this Rogue is frail, was waiting on getting some of the fun abilities before starting White March), but as I've widely moaned about the save is now bugged so I can't get Lyrinia's Boon (which I was getting very often as with 20 Dex it's free). With 2 points less of Con, I've lost confidence that the build will work in tough fights (Rogues really need all the Con you can get playing them like this), and even if the build is viable I would now need to have it poorly optimised for the rest of the game - which I'm not prepared to do.

 

So it seemed to be working well enough, feel free to write it up as a Class Build if you play test it to after some of the boss monsters, as with the bug I'm going to be uninstalling the game.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Jojobobo