Wizard's Level 0 Ability

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Having played some of the Beta, it occurs to me that Wizards and Chanters are the only classes without some sort of level 0 active or passive ability built into the base class, however Chanters don't count because they are able to select between two abilities(invocation and chant) at character creation. Even discarding the current major issues with casting in it's current form, this seems to be a flaw that isn't remedied with the presence of grimoires and makes the class less appealing than the other full casters who get some sort of power to use as support or dps boost. I'm wondering if Wizards should get some Level 0 Ability, like Arcane Assault from PoE, in order to give them a similar number of spell options as other casters before going to auto-attack or if they should get some base passive.

[Heijoushin]

I kinda liked the little level 0 cantrip spells in White March. Obviously they felt cantrips weren't necessary anymore since everything is per battle now. Still, variety is the spice of life and all that.

[theBalthazar]

Arcane Assault was very useful level 1-8 in POE1. Sort of Instant attack very quick.

 

Stay honorable after that (continue to evolve)

 

Now Wizard is...

 

...Bad.

[Boeroer]

Not really bad overall - the wizard is a great candidate for multiclassing because of his very useful self buffs and a few other powerful spells.

 

But in general single class wizards (and every other single class caster) suffer from the problem that more than 50% of their abilites (aka spells aka invocations) are trash in the current state. Sure, there are some really good ones, no doubt, but why are so many of their abilites so bad in comparison? I don't want casters to be one-trick ponies. In theory they can choose from a ton of different spells - but why should they ever pick the thrashy ones? To create a real challenge or what? 

[divjak]

Not really bad overall - the wizard is a great candidate for multiclassing because of his very useful self buffs and a few other powerful spells.

 

But in general single class wizards (and every other single class caster) suffer from the problem that more than 50% of their abilites (aka spells aka invocations) are trash in the current state. Sure, there are some really good ones, no doubt, but why are so many of their abilites so bad in comparison? I don't want casters to be one-trick ponies. In theory they can choose from a ton of different spells - but why should they ever pick the thrashy ones? To create a real challenge or what? 

well, that was an issue in POE1, basically, you would pick best 4 spells for level, and out of the 4, you would mostly use 1 or 2 of them.

 

Wizards do get grimoire, which is kinda like their level 0 feature 

 

 

I feel with stat changes and everything, druids are worst out of the casters

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[Boeroer]

I agree that the grimoires function like the special lvl-0-thing. Since trinkets are out this gives them something special.

 

Druids are not worse than other casters. The Livegiver for example is pretty great (awesome healer, needs no STR, shifting is just a tool to raise rejuvenation's power level) - while the Fury as dedicated nuking class is quite meh due to the weak shift and the overall bad state of offensive spells (although the Fury also doesn't necessarily need STR). The Shapeshifter is not really a caster and doesn't need a lot of RES but STR, but very strong nonetheless. Druids' lvl-0-thing is Spiritshift - and that's powerful as it is (except Fury), even if you only use it as your panic button once you get attacked.

 

And 15 RES/15 STAR is totally doable and doesn't gimp a whole class - even if it has to have some RES and STAR because it needs both weapon and spell damage.

 

I feel the worst casting class is currently the cipher. And not because the cipher has to invest into RES and STR at the same time (he doesn't if he focuses on weapon damage and CC spells) but because the spells/powers of ciphers are awfully balanced. The Ascendant is a mess, the Beguiler's is nothing special and the Soulblade, while Soul Annihilation is awesome, suffers the same problem as the other ciphers: the spells are basically crap in their current form.

 

Priests do at least have fast healing spells and their powerful faith attuned weapons (if they manage to summon them in time)...

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[divjak]

I agree that the grimoires function like the special lvl-0-thing. Since trinkets are out this gives them something special.

 

Druids are not worse than other casters. The Livegiver for example is pretty great (awesome healer) - while the Fury as dedicated nuking class is quite meh due to the weak shift and the overall bad state of offensive spells. The Shapeshifter is not really a caster, but very strong nonetheless. Their lvl-0-thing is Spiritshift - and that's powerful as it is, even if you only use it as your panic button once you get attacked.

druid spells are mostly nukes and some healing/buff, and their class feature is shapeshifting

 

ok if you are fury, but what about single class shifters? 

They are MAD as hell, you need resolve for spells,  and strength for shifting, so basically if you pick shifter, either your spell picks or shifting will be subpar.

 

 

Ciphers are in the same boat, you can  go to control powers and strength, or get damage powers and have poor focus generation  

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[Boeroer]

But you can be a great shifter with 15/15 if you want decent melee damage and good self heal. Nuking isn't a good option anyways. Why do you need a shifter class that's always a no-brainer to skill with 18 STR and 3 RES?

You can still do that though. But your healing will be bad while your melee damage is better. No problem if you have a healer in the party.

 

The problem of a single class shifter is that there are not enough useful choices on level-up. That makes me want to multiclass a shifter every time. But honestly I have the same problem with most other classes atm as well... Not enough choices on level-up that match my "plans" due to the removal of universal talents/passive abilities - or not enough passive class abilities.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

A good druid need :

 

Intelligence (storms)

Strength (Spiritshifting)

Perception (accuracy)

Resolve (damage spells)

Dexterity (Speed for spells (obligation with the situation of casters...) and spiritshifting)

 

a good ranger need :

 

Strength (Damage)

Perception (accuracy)

Dexterity (speed)

 

It is not very fair... You cannot give 15 in all stat. If you don't have dump stat like resolve, resolve have 15 and you have less points to spends. So there is a problem.

 

That makes me want to multiclass a shifter every time. But honestly I have the same problem with most other classes atm as well...

 

 

True. Single class is awful. POE1 have a better system for passive. A better list. A better choice each level.

 

All in POE2 is do for multiclassing. I don't see yet the interrest of single class. Perhaps kill apps 2 last levels of abilities/spell (perhaps...)

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Heijoushin]

Alas, it was the druid that got hurt the most when Might changed back to strength. He's either a pretty mediocre jack-of-all-trades, or he has to specialize. 

[Boeroer]

Or he's much more powerful than a ranger to begin with and can afford to have balanced attributes...

 

Also, as a druid you can specialize. You don't necessarily be great with nuking AND shifting AND CC AND healing. The ranger can only do one thing with such focused attributes, and that's shooting stuff from afar. If you want a specialized melee druid you'd take a shifter and drop RES. You don't need it to deal damage and high INT and PER would be enough to make the Storm worthwhile even without a lot of spell damage. It's the disabling effect that's important here.

 

A specialized classbuild can always drop a stat. If you want to be ok at everything then you obviously can't. Like a ranger who not only wants to shoot stuff but also wants to be great at healing his pet all the time and provide long lasting DoT-effects: he'd have to raise RES and INT.

 

So, comparing a druid (who's supposed to be great at every druidic aspect) to a ranger who's only supposed to shoot stuff and then say "but look: the druid needs more stat points to be good at all those things" is not fair game.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[divjak]

But you can be a great shifter with 15/15 if you want decent melee damage and good self heal. Nuking isn't a good option anyways. Why do you need a shifter class that's always a no-brainer to skill with 18 STR and 3 RES?

You can still do that though. But your healing will be bad while your melee damage is better. No problem if you have a healer in the party.

 

The problem of a single class shifter is that there are not enough useful choices on level-up. That makes me want to multiclass a shifter every time. But honestly I have the same problem with most other classes atm as well... Not enough choices on level-up that match my "plans" due to the removal of universal talents/passive abilities - or not enough passive class abilities.

 

 

nuking is not a good option is not an argument, and shifter now basically needs every stat

 

 

shifter in its current state works only if you plan to multiclass, and have lets say bear looking monk, because after you get wild strike, rest is meh

 

Before stat change, the shifter was a hybrid, youl could stay in back, and support/nuke and you could shift and go for melee in bear form, or run for enemy casters as a wolf, now it seems that its no brainer.

I dont see how having fewer viable build options is a good thing in any scenario

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[Boeroer]

I said that he lacks passive abilities. The problem is that the shifter has to pick certain spells because there is no other option. He's not very gimped just because he has to raise RES a bit if he wants to cast a damaging spell.

 

Also, there is no loss of option in this case. There is oy a less min-maxing way of playing a shifter who can deal good melee damage and ALSO deal good spell damage.

 

At least if you don't mean that min-maxing is the only option of course.

 

I'm not even a fan of the new STAR/RES, I only think this whining about how classes like cipher and druid are gimped now is a bit exaggerated.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

 

But you can be a great shifter with 15/15 if you want decent melee damage and good self heal. Nuking isn't a good option anyways. Why do you need a shifter class that's always a no-brainer to skill with 18 STR and 3 RES?

You can still do that though. But your healing will be bad while your melee damage is better. No problem if you have a healer in the party.

 

The problem of a single class shifter is that there are not enough useful choices on level-up. That makes me want to multiclass a shifter every time. But honestly I have the same problem with most other classes atm as well... Not enough choices on level-up that match my "plans" due to the removal of universal talents/passive abilities - or not enough passive class abilities.

nuking is not a good option is not an argument, and shifter now basically needs every stat

 

 

shifter in its current state works only if you plan to multiclass, and have lets say bear looking monk, because after you get wild strike, rest is meh

 

Before stat change, the shifter was a hybrid, youl could stay in back, and support/nuke and you could shift and go for melee in bear form, or run for enemy casters as a wolf, now it seems that its no brainer.

I dont see how having fewer viable build options is a good thing in any scenario

How shifter is designed, is to encourage you to shift from one form to another form, so you get constant heal and keep tanking and fighting.

 

It punishes you for casting spells because you need to take one more step than normal Druid if you wanna cast, turn back to human form, and need to pay extra recovery time. It’s not a subclass that favor hybrid, it’s a melee focused subclass.

 

It’s not a no brainer, but it is how it is designed, you are better at attacking than casting. If you wanna play a real hybrid Druid, there are livegiver and normal Druid.

Edited January 8, 2018 by dunehunter

[divjak]

 

 

But you can be a great shifter with 15/15 if you want decent melee damage and good self heal. Nuking isn't a good option anyways. Why do you need a shifter class that's always a no-brainer to skill with 18 STR and 3 RES?

You can still do that though. But your healing will be bad while your melee damage is better. No problem if you have a healer in the party.

 

The problem of a single class shifter is that there are not enough useful choices on level-up. That makes me want to multiclass a shifter every time. But honestly I have the same problem with most other classes atm as well... Not enough choices on level-up that match my "plans" due to the removal of universal talents/passive abilities - or not enough passive class abilities.

nuking is not a good option is not an argument, and shifter now basically needs every stat

 

 

shifter in its current state works only if you plan to multiclass, and have lets say bear looking monk, because after you get wild strike, rest is meh

 

Before stat change, the shifter was a hybrid, youl could stay in back, and support/nuke and you could shift and go for melee in bear form, or run for enemy casters as a wolf, now it seems that its no brainer.

I dont see how having fewer viable build options is a good thing in any scenario

How shifter is designed, is to encourage you to shift from one form to another form, so you get constant heal and keep tanking and fighting.

 

It punishes you for casting spells because you need to take one more step than normal Druid if you wanna cast, turn back to human form, and need to pay extra recovery time. It’s not a subclass that favor hybrid, it’s a melee focused subclass.

 

It’s not a no brainer, but it is how it is designed, you are better at attacking than casting. If you wanna play a real hybrid Druid, there are livegiver and normal Druid.

 

 

 

so what?

 

before stat changes, you could have a viable melee shifter build, and still be a viable nuker, nowadays, all of your spell picks are meh.

 

 

Also, shifter does not punish you at all, but forces you to chose, do you wont to cast or fight, actually it was great subclass for players who wont to cast as well

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[dunehunter]

Claiming that a subclass force you to choose sounds weird to me. I think it’s make more sense that a player pick the most suitable subclass that fit his playstyle than complain a subclass not fit his playstyle, you can always pick a more suitable subclass.

 

And when I play shifter, I do cast spells. For tough battles I will cast returning storm before I shifted and it works fair good. I vote for old Might system too, buy I think it’s being too soon to say Druid is gimped too.

Edited January 8, 2018 by dunehunter

[divjak]

Claiming that a subclass force you to choose sounds weird to me. I think it’s make more sense that a player pick the most suitable subclass that fit his playstyle than complain a subclass not fit his playstyle, you can always pick a more suitable subclass.

 

And when I play shifter, I do cast spells. For tough battles I will cast returning storm before I shifted and it works fair good. I vote for old Might system too, buy I think it’s being too soon to say Druid is gimped too.

 

Claiming that a subclass force you to choose sounds weird to me. I think it’s make more sense that a player pick the most suitable subclass that fit his playstyle than complain a subclass not fit his playstyle, you can always pick a more suitable subclass.

 

And when I play shifter, I do cast spells. For tough battles I will cast returning storm before I shifted and it works fair good. I vote for old Might system too, buy I think it’s being too soon to say Druid is gimped too.

 

 

Its says in a class description if you shift you cant cast, its black on white, plain and simple, so how do you dont understand?

lol

 

 

maybe you dont grasp concept of a hybrid because I can't see anything punishing in not shifting, and still having powerful nukes, so maybe you made a concept in your head that not shifting is somehow punishing in every scenario?

 

You can cast storm that is useful because of stun, and that is all, while 90%+ of your picks on level up are impotent spells, there is no sane person who would pick shifter as a single class right now, because 90% of your level up choices dont mean ****. If you are high strength, you could cast impotent spells or shift and do massive damage in melee, that must be a hard choice

On the other hand, if you pump resolve, then you can take fury and be done with it, because your shifts will be crap

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[dunehunter]

That is the problem for almost all single classes, not only shifter, but shifter does suffer more from this problem.

 

And I understand what a hybrid is. I just agree more that a hybrid should be inferior to a pure meleer or caster in their specialist field. Hybrid provides utilities and more choices than pure meleer or casters.

Edited January 8, 2018 by dunehunter

[theBalthazar]

Except if Obsidian balance the druid for a great ensemble.

 

In this case, Obsidian must buff the two aspects to compensate.

 

Because each level, now, you chose only one spell by level AND spiritshift is a core ability. So, it is not a choice. It is a forced hybrid !... (if you want spells)

 

Yes you can don't take the spells aspect, yes ! But you deprive yourself of 90% of the panel. Stay 3 passive useless +10 will/reflex/etc.

 

OR another solution, internal resolve give you strength :

 

"Inner power" = Spiritshifting via Resolve.

 

Spiritshifting = determination = resolve of the nature = your true strength = Resolve attribute ?

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

That is the problem for almost all single classes, not only shifter, but shifter does suffer more from this problem.

 

And I understand what a hybrid is. I just agree more that a hybrid should be inferior to a pure meleer or caster in their specialist field. Hybrid provides utilities and more choices than pure meleer or casters.

Druid is a hybrid that u can choose to melee attack or blast, shifter is a subclass that focus on its melee side.

 

So for trade off, you lose some of the utilities and flexibility as a hybrid since u cannot attack effective and cast at same time. But it’s not a hard limit because u can still turn back to normal form and cast.

Edited January 8, 2018 by dunehunter

[divjak]

point is that this game was designed from ground up for stat block with might, and everything worked then just fine.

 

Now when they changed to strength, it brought a boatload of issues, and if they dont plan to revert back, they will need to make class specific rules, which bring another boatload of issues with multiclassing like in DnD.

 

Might type of stat block was robust, worked the same for every class, and I dont see any good reason why would you change that, its a prime example of fixing what is not broken to break it, only arguments against that were of emotional nature, that it doesn't feel DnD where all wizards must be frail weaklings

Edited January 8, 2018 by divjak

[theBalthazar]

If you take resolve for spiritshifting = you become fragile when untransformed. This is the main difference.

 

Main problem, druid is hybrid by essence. Your core IS spiritshifting. And your progression is mainly spells.

 

And even as shifter you can cast spells (before).

 

If you want my analysis :

 

beserker + Devoted > Druid shifter + Devoted. Because too few passives of druid.

 

There only one of the TWO following solutions for the druid :

 

1) Make Resolve become the offensive attribute of spiritshifting.

 

2) Reinforce the panel of passive. Like that with a spe melee, we have Strength (offensive), no resolve, and you pick passive rather than useless spells.

 

Think to single classes... Single shifter. What do you take with full spiritshifting ? Tell me ? ^^ +10 will +10 reflex +10 fortitude only^^ (and 40 % elemetal damage obviously)

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

If you take resolve for spiritshifting = you become fragile when untransformed. This is the main difference.

 

Main problem, druid is hybrid by essence. Your core IS spiritshifting. And your progression is mainly spells.

 

And even as shifter you can cast spells (before).

 

If you want my analysis :

 

beserker + Devoted > Druid shifter + Devoted. Because too few passives of druid.

 

There only one of the TWO following solutions for the druid :

 

1) Make Resolve become the offensive attribute of spiritshifting.

 

2) Reinforce the pannel of passive. Like that with a spe melee, we have Strength (offensive), no resolve, and you pick passive rather than useless spells.

 

Think to single classes... Single shifter. What do you take whith full spiritshifting ? Tell me ? ^^ +10 will +10 reflex +10 fortitude only^^

This is easy to solve, ties spiritual form’s attributes to power level like monk’s fist. Then let Res boost power level.

[Boeroer]

point is that this game was designed from ground up for stat block with might, and everything worked then just fine.

 

Now when they changed to strength, it brought a boatload of issues, and if they dont plan to revert back, they will need to make class specific rules, which bring another boatload of issues with multiclassing like in DnD.

 

Might type of stat block was robust, worked the same for every class, and I dont see any good reason why would you change that, its a prime example of fixing what is not broken to break it, only arguments against that were of emotional nature, that it doesn't feel DnD where all wizards must be frail weaklings

To that a I agree mostly. They are possibly breaking more stuff while they want to patch up resolve which was a dump stat for almost everyone because concentration was no longer bound to it.

 

But instead of adding something new and useful to resolve (like for example that it influences afflictions on you) while leaving the rest of the stats as they used to be - they toppled the whole thing over.

 

While I'm not totally against the change when I only look at STR and RES I also fear that this change may lead to a whole string of consequences that are not intended. Like now we will suddenly have nukers and healers with a lot of deflection. Before the change they were strong, now they are masters of melee defense... and stuff like that.

 

Still the druid is not really gimped with this change. Still works perfectly well. It's just not possible any more to min-max him in such a way that he can do everything very well that a druid can possibly do. Don't know if this is a bad thing to be honest.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

This is easy to solve, ties spiritual form’s attributes to power level like monk’s fist. Then let Res boost power level. 

 

 

Yes good idea.

 

But already the case for part. Or you cut the strength/resolve aspect and reinforce the power level aspect ?

 

But it is not ideal because here is no way to increase the value other than by the level up, with your solution.

 

Monk is not in the same case. There is no massive list of spells in monk panel.

 

Obsidian lets be very clear that the "window of level up" is mixed between PASSIVE and SPELLS ... If you have 90% of spells. You can not have 50% of passive. You have 10% ...

 

 

 

Contribution of the offensive attribute : 33 % (max without buff)

Contribution of spiritshifting : 15 %

 

With your system : 33 % / 2 (we cut the pear in half) = 15 % ~

 

Contribution without offensive stat scale = 15 + 15 = 30 %. (vs 48 %)

 

Min-max are not happy : p

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar