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Killing Eothas speculation.

God Hammer Eothas End-game speculation

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#21
blotter

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The Beyond seems like a great location for a battle. Good catch.

Thanks; I think it'd also be a good chance to show off how a god's territory might appear to mortal eyes (if the gods actually stake claims to particular sections of the metaphysical landscape in Pillars) in this setting if the location of such a fight happened to be within or near Eothas' slice of the Beyond.



#22
Tagaziel

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If you're saying that there likely won't and shouldn't be a simple linear progression where you just make your way through the game, leveling up along the way until you're a bad enough dude to carve up Eothas with awesome loot you're decked out in, then I agree. But if you're saying that, as a god, Eothas should be beyond any meaningful confrontation with mortals or risk of permanent harm through such confrontations regardless of the resources the player gathers, the factions they rally, the favor they curry with other gods, etc., then I think you've mistaken this for a setting where the gods actually are untouchable as opposed to fallible constructs.

 

It's the first one. The gods being AIs is an amazing idea... And since they were brought into existence by men, they can certainly be unmade by men. My point was more related to the nature of the gods: The Engwithans sacrificed themselves en masse (one could say ascended) to create the gods as Eora knows, so one soul, no matter how powerful it is, couldn't quite put a dent in them. Even Thaos  bargained with Woedica, rather than controlling her, as far as I remember. 

 

I like your points, even if the prospect of a special ending for the Effigy freaks me the hell out (yeah, I have a vivid imagiantion).


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#23
blotter

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It's the first one. The gods being AIs is an amazing idea... And since they were brought into existence by men, they can certainly be unmade by men. My point was more related to the nature of the gods: The Engwithans sacrificed themselves en masse (one could say ascended) to create the gods as Eora knows, so one soul, no matter how powerful it is, couldn't quite put a dent in them. Even Thaos  bargained with Woedica, rather than controlling her, as far as I remember. 

Fair enough. What you're saying makes sense and I agree to a point that it should be virtually, if not absolutely, impossible for one mortal alone to harm a god in this setting given nature of said gods' construction/existence. Still, even setting aside the particulars of what makes the case of Eothas a possible exception to this general rule, it is worth mentioning that the Watcher has proven capable of shredding thousands, or perhaps even tens of thousands, of souls into nonexistence before:

Spoiler
With that in mind, Watchers of sufficiently absurd power may be exceptions to this decisive gulf between gods and mortals, at least as far as significantly harming the former is concerned.

 

Though to reiterate, I wouldn't want a confrontation with Eothas to be a simple matter of walking up to him and hacking away at his adra ankles until he tips over: a lot should go into setting the stage for an in-game battle and stacking the odds in your favor enough for the prospect of fighting Eothas, however weakened he may be at this point, to be less than totally insane. Further, the preparation for such an event might quite reasonably require the Watcher to kill, enslave, or imprison both Xoti and/or Eder if either of them has been recruited (though perhaps not, depending on character development opportunities that may be available for them).

 

I wouldn't want the choice of killing Eothas to necessarily be limited to 'evil' characters, but taking steps to do so should force a Watcher to consider how far they're willing to go for revenge (or justice, if this is about punishing Eothas for thousands of other souls he consumed when he awakened under your keep) and it's also hard to ignore the likelihood/inevitability of conflict between faithful Eothasian companions and a Watcher who has persistently demonstrated that they are set on killing the god that these companions worship.

 

I like your points, even if the prospect of a special ending for the Effigy freaks me the hell out (yeah, I have a vivid imagiantion).

 

Thanks, and yeah, going Effigy on Eothas probably would have to take the form of an extended scripted encounter, alternate epilogue, or non-standard game over rather than anything along the lines of an in-game fight - or maybe they could sidestep the need for multiple new Effigy models and animations for different races/sexes by simply shrouding your Watcher in a bloody aura or making a single shared model on the basis that an Effigy which would be up to the task of threatening another god is something that the Watcher might have to transfer their soul into rather than being transformed into themselves.


Edited by blotter, 12 December 2017 - 05:21 PM.

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#24
Bozalosc

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One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

He's not exactly a god, I'm pretty sure in the story they delve into that in the last missions, that thaos's people tried looking for the gods and couldn't find them anywhere they looked or went using animancy, and other technological advances. So they made them selves "gods" in order to prevent wide out rage and chaos that if there where no gods intern there are no consequences to what a person does.



#25
Tagaziel

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Fair enough. What you're saying makes sense and I agree to a point that it should be virtually, if not absolutely, impossible for one mortal alone to harm a god in this setting given nature of said gods' construction/existence. Still, even setting aside the particulars of what makes the case of Eothas a possible exception to this general rule, it is worth mentioning that the Watcher has proven capable of shredding thousands, or perhaps even tens of thousands, of souls into nonexistence before:

Spoiler
With that in mind, Watchers of sufficiently absurd power may be exceptions to this decisive gulf between gods and mortals, at least as far as significantly harming the former is concerned.
 
Though to reiterate, I wouldn't want a confrontation with Eothas to be a simple matter of walking up to him and hacking away at his adra ankles until he tips over: a lot should go into setting the stage for an in-game battle and stacking the odds in your favor enough for the prospect of fighting Eothas, however weakened he may be at this point, to be less than totally insane. Further, the preparation for such an event might quite reasonably require the Watcher to kill, enslave, or imprison both Xoti and/or Eder if either of them has been recruited (though perhaps not, depending on character development opportunities that may be available for them).

 
I put off playing White March and the Deadfire beta, so no more excuses I guess. But yeah, sufficiently absurd power may be blurring the line between gods and men (given that soulent divine is made from people)... Though I think it's still below divine level, otherwise the pantheon would be a lot more flexible than Engwithans planned it. Perhaps powerful enough to wound, but not definitively kill.

Given Obsidian's history, I doubt it's going to be straightforward or that killing Eothas will be even a reasonable option (much like slaughtering the caravan at the beginning of PoE1).

I wouldn't want the choice of killing Eothas to necessarily be limited to 'evil' characters, but taking steps to do so should force a Watcher to consider how far they're willing to go for revenge (or justice, if this is about punishing Eothas for thousands of other souls he consumed when he awakened under your keep) and it's also hard to ignore the likelihood/inevitability of conflict between faithful Eothasian companions and a Watcher who has persistently demonstrated that they are set on killing the god that these companions worship.


Absolutely. Given what I know about the game's main story and its implications (wasn't there something about the revelations being a threat to kith and gods alike?), it may be that the whole confrontation with Eothas might lead to destroying the pantheon. Or it may put you in the shoes of Thaos, with a new spin on his role and views: Maybe the gods are needed to make the world more bearable, as was the original plan?
 
 

Thanks, and yeah, going Effigy on Eothas probably would have to take the form of an extended scripted encounter, alternate epilogue, or non-standard game over rather than anything along the lines of an in-game fight - or maybe they could sidestep the need for multiple new Effigy models and animations for different races/sexes by simply shrouding your Watcher in a bloody aura or making a single shared model on the basis that an Effigy which would be up to the task of threatening another god is something that the Watcher might have to transfer their soul into rather than being transformed into themselves.


All good points. Given how the Effigy is made, it'd likely just be a custom skin for the various body types.

...

Ugh. Effigy making.
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#26
tinysalamander

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Though to reiterate, I wouldn't want a confrontation with Eothas to be a simple matter of walking up to him and hacking away at his adra ankles until he tips over: a lot should go into setting the stage for an in-game battle and stacking the odds in your favor enough for the prospect of fighting Eothas, however weakened he may be at this point, to be less than totally insane. Further, the preparation for such an event might quite reasonably require the Watcher to kill, enslave, or imprison both Xoti and/or Eder if either of them has been recruited (though perhaps not, depending on character development opportunities that may be available for them).

 
Well, https://imgur.com/a/rjQ8x (PoE1 ending spoilers, obviously).
 

I wouldn't want the choice of killing Eothas to necessarily be limited to 'evil' characters, but taking steps to do so should force a Watcher to consider how far they're willing to go for revenge (or justice, if this is about punishing Eothas for thousands of other souls he consumed when he awakened under your keep) and it's also hard to ignore the likelihood/inevitability of conflict between faithful Eothasian companions and a Watcher who has persistently demonstrated that they are set on killing the god that these companions worship.

 
Which assumes I am

Spoiler
not planning a great deicide for the reason of thou shalt have no gods. Although if he is a somewhat of a good guy after all starting with him might be problematic as I’d remove the force that stands in the way of divine maniacs (besides the usual fact that killing a good guy is problematic). Removing them from positions of power without killing might be an option as well, but I’m not sure how it should be done. Or maybe some killed, some removed from power.



#27
blotter

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Absolutely. Given what I know about the game's main story and its implications (wasn't there something about the revelations being a threat to kith and gods alike?), it may be that the whole confrontation with Eothas might lead to destroying the pantheon. Or it may put you in the shoes of Thaos, with a new spin on his role and views: Maybe the gods are needed to make the world more bearable, as was the original plan?

 

Yeah, it would be interesting if the game's developments could potentially serve to challenge the Watcher's perspective on Thaos' choices as they learn more of the secrets of the world/the gods. Tinysalamander touches upon the fact that this has been addressed to a limited extent where companions and their issues regarding are concerned, but there's definitely room for further development.

 

Also in relation to the end game, I wonder how often the Watcher will have opportunities during the sequel to try to convince others of what they learned within Sun in Shadow.

 

Well, https://imgur.com/a/rjQ8x (PoE1 ending spoilers, obviously).

 

Good point. In most of my games, I do tend to steer Eder away from devotion to the gods, but I didn't really think about the implications of doing so as they pertain to Deadfire. Based on the examples that developers have provided about companion relationships and how Eder works within that context, it does sound like being pro-Eothas is still one of his centrally defining characteristics, but end game states from Pillars 1 may well influence how open he might be to opposing viewpoints.

 

While we're at it, one of the earliest updates had this to say about Xoti's perspective on Eothas:

 

She is intrigued by the rumors of Eothas' manifestation, but she fears what that will mean for her fellow expatriates, many of whom followed his previous incarnation into war and defeat.

 

Her conflicted views on his return might be sufficient to remove any requirement to defend Eothas to the death, or even to leave the party depending on how you deal with her and/or things develop throughout the game.

 

Which assumes I am

Spoiler
not planning a great deicide for the reason of thou shalt have no gods. Although if he is a somewhat of a good guy after all starting with him might be problematic as I’d remove the force that stands in the way of divine maniacs (besides the usual fact that killing a good guy is problematic). Removing them from positions of power without killing might be an option as well, but I’m not sure how it should be done. Or maybe some killed, some removed from power.

 

It's less that I assumed anything about your priestess of Eothas (and I'm not sure why you'd bother to spoiler that) and more that, in my preceding discussion of options focused on killing Eothas, I hadn't considered how that would play out for Eothasian Watchers at all. But sure, I've no doubt players can find reasons for potentially wanting Eothas dead despite still technically being priests of his faith. I'd hope that the game reacts to that, even if I personally have no intention of playing an Eothasian Watcher any time soon.

 

That said, I suspect that Tagaziel's right in that the game is unlikely to portray a deicidal route as being particularly reasonable; at the very least, I'd be surprised if the game didn't devote a significant amount of time to considering the potentially disastrous consequences of killing Eothas.


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#28
FlintlockJazz

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One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

He's not exactly a god, I'm pretty sure in the story they delve into that in the last missions, that thaos's people tried looking for the gods and couldn't find them anywhere they looked or went using animancy, and other technological advances. So they made them selves "gods" in order to prevent wide out rage and chaos that if there where no gods intern there are no consequences to what a person does.

 

We know the gods are created, doesn't really stop them being gods despite what Iovara said.  The first greek gods were created by the Titans, and others were born of god-human pairings (Zeus in particular, the horny bastard), while other religions had humans ascending to godhood.  It was more the origins of the gods that was the secret, and whether them being created made them unworthy of worship or not.


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#29
algroth

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One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

He's not exactly a god, I'm pretty sure in the story they delve into that in the last missions, that thaos's people tried looking for the gods and couldn't find them anywhere they looked or went using animancy, and other technological advances. So they made them selves "gods" in order to prevent wide out rage and chaos that if there where no gods intern there are no consequences to what a person does.

 

We know the gods are created, doesn't really stop them being gods despite what Iovara said.  The first greek gods were created by the Titans, and others were born of god-human pairings (Zeus in particular, the horny bastard), while other religions had humans ascending to godhood.  It was more the origins of the gods that was the secret, and whether them being created made them unworthy of worship or not.

 

I think the intention behind each case is quite different, however. All of the above is true but to the best of my awareness none of them were made with the express intention to deceive, as have the gods created by the Engwithans. Iovara states that the Engwithans had found by some means that there were no gods, and in trying to prevent chaos they created 'real' gods that would fill that void and thus support a particular set of beliefs and pantheon. Thus in this setting I do think the fact they were created goes against their claim to real godhood.


Edited by algroth, 08 January 2018 - 10:44 AM.


#30
tinysalamander

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Gods and titans can (try to) claim some sort of divine right, they exist because the nature of their reality says so. Human creations cannot. They are simply sufficiently advanced AIs. Even if the practical difference is almost non-existant for most people.


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