Resolve! Huh, What is it good for?

[Insidous]

 

 

They're putting ciphers in a nerf box and I don't see a way out of it.

 

 

They could buff the spells, that doesn't affect multiclassing much

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

 

They could buff the spells, that doesn't affect multiclassing much

 

 

 

That's the other option -- just make Cipher powers have really big damage numbers.

 

But then someone goes the other direction, makes, say, a Resolve-stacking Paladin/cipher that does take the cipher powers (Say, an Ascendant build). Use paladin powers for the inital phases of the fight, then once you've built up focus incidentally, go crazy casting overbalanced cipher endgame powers. 

 

 

Multi-class builds can use one class as a crutch for the other; single-class ciphers can't.

[CENIC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They could buff the spells, that doesn't affect multiclassing much

 

That's the other option -- just make Cipher powers have really big damage numbers.

 

But then someone goes the other direction, makes, say, a Resolve-stacking Paladin/cipher that does take the cipher powers (Say, an Ascendant build). Use paladin powers for the inital phases of the fight, then once you've built up focus incidentally, go crazy casting overbalanced cipher endgame powers.

 

 

Multi-class builds can use one class as a crutch for the other; single-class ciphers can't.

What about this suggestion?

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. So the stumbling block seems to be a number of hybrids, as well as much of cipher and druid in part?

Perhaps you could add a "specific-hybride-unique" talent that you "must" take early on in the hybrids that really got boned this way.

Then cipher and druid need to get a few bones thrown at them as well.

It wouldn't be that hard to fix, no?

 

I don't see a way to fix it because anything you give single-class ciphers to "Even it out," would end up making multi-class ciphers ridiculously overpowered. For example, if you gave Soul Whip a bunch of extra weapon damage to balance out the Might losses, then melee classes start taking Cipher as a second class just for the soul whip damage boost, and just ignore the cipher damage powers.

Aha! But then only have that soul whip damage ability available for single class ciphers.

Or for flexibility: Make it half or something, if multi-classed. These things merely require clever tinkering.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

What about this suggestion?

 

 

Aha! But then only have that soul whip damage ability available for single class ciphers.

Or for flexibility: Make it half or something, if multi-classed. These things merely require clever tinkering.

 

 

Theoretically . . . maybe? If you get *really* complicated maybe there's a way to patch it into functionality, but at that point it's like adding epicycles to the geocentric theory: technically it works on paper, but it's absurdly overcomplicated and non-intuitive and most of the player base will never understand it. You're basically writing a set of asterisks by all the game rules that lead to "except for Ciphers, which" footnotes.

[Insidous]

 

That's the other option -- just make Cipher powers have really big damage numbers.

 

But then someone goes the other direction, makes, say, a Resolve-stacking Paladin/cipher that does take the cipher powers (Say, an Ascendant build). Use paladin powers for the inital phases of the fight, then once you've built up focus incidentally, go crazy casting overbalanced cipher endgame powers. 

 

 

Multi-class builds can use one class as a crutch for the other; single-class ciphers can't.

 

 

But those paladin powers won't incidentally built up your focus any higher with a lot of resolve. According to Josh FoD will be affected by strength. Paladins need resolve for deflection healing and maybe sworn enemy damage spells, all of which don't build up any focus. If a pure cipher is fine, those damage powers won't be stronger on a paladin/cipher

 

Also a dramatic increase is not needed. Might makes up for about a 24% additional damage, not any absurdly crazy numbers.

 

Multiclassing introduced a lot of totally unbalanced and overpowered builds, I don't think the attribute change and any long run implications will have as big of an impact as some of those fighter, barbarian, monk, soul annihilation combinations, which all rely on physical strength - an attribute that got nerfed.

[JerekKruger]

Also a dramatic increase is not needed. Might makes up for about a 24% additional damage, not any absurdly crazy numbers.

 

Might has become multiplicative in Deadfire so, assuming you have a few other sources of bonus damage, it is a huge boost to your damage.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

But those paladin powers won't incidentally built up your focus any higher with a lot of resolve. According to Josh FoD will be affected by strength. Paladins need resolve for deflection healing and maybe sworn enemy damage spells, all of which don't build up any focus. If a pure cipher is fine, those damage powers won't be stronger on a paladin/cipher

 

 

 

 

That's not really what I meant by "incidental," sorry. I meant more that the multiclass hybrid could use Paladin (or Berserker, or w/e) abilities and just not use cipher powers till later in the fight. No matter what you're doing, as long as you're using a weapon in some fashion, you're going to get focus. Multiclass characters have a lot of other non-cipher things they can do while waiting for the focus bar to fill up; ciphers don't.

 

Basically it's the same issue as why Ascendants are a really good pick for a multiclass cipher right now but a really bad pick if you're a single class cipher.

 

Alternative example: multiclass priest/cipher who stacks resolve. Start the fight by buffing and casting the area of effect heal, with some ranged autoattacks mixed in. By the time you've blown out your priest spell list, your focus meter is full from incidental autoattacks; now you cast those already-overtuned cipher powers with your additional Resolve bonus. 

 

Multiclass ciphers can use the other class as a crutch to get through the weak side of their character, whatever it is; single class ciphers can't.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[theBalthazar]

Multiclass characters have a lot of other non-cipher things they can do while waiting for the focus bar to fill up; ciphers don't.

 

 

this.

[Insidous]

 

Also a dramatic increase is not needed. Might makes up for about a 24% additional damage, not any absurdly crazy numbers.

 

Might has become multiplicative in Deadfire so, assuming you have a few other sources of bonus damage, it is a huge boost to your damage.

 

 

That's a big change I didn't know about!

But I am talking about a hypothetical balance change to boost cipher spells which are already under powered. Are there any other ways except attributes to buff your spell damage, that would stack multiplicative with might (or resolve)?

 

 

 

 

 

But those paladin powers won't incidentally built up your focus any higher with a lot of resolve. According to Josh FoD will be affected by strength. Paladins need resolve for deflection healing and maybe sworn enemy damage spells, all of which don't build up any focus. If a pure cipher is fine, those damage powers won't be stronger on a paladin/cipher

 

 

 

 

That's not really what I meant by "incidental," sorry. I meant more that the multiclass hybrid could use Paladin (or Berserker, or w/e) abilities and just not use cipher powers till later in the fight. No matter what you're doing, as long as you're using a weapon in some fashion, you're going to get focus. Multiclass characters have a lot of other non-cipher things they can do while waiting for the focus bar to fill up; ciphers don't.

 

Basically it's the same issue as why Ascendants are a really good pick for a multiclass cipher right now but a really bad pick if you're a single class cipher.

 

Alternative example: multiclass priest/cipher who stacks resolve. Start the fight by buffing and casting the area of effect heal, with some ranged autoattacks mixed in. By the time you've blown out your priest spell list, your focus meter is full from incidental autoattacks; now you cast those already-overtuned cipher powers with your additional Resolve bonus. 

 

Multiclass ciphers can use the other class as a crutch to get through the weak side of their character, whatever it is; single class ciphers can't.

 

 

Yeah you will have very few very strong spells at the end of the fight in which you hardly did much damage before. It's by no means bad, but is it really as bad as a cleaving stance, carnage, devoted berserker with 50% hit to crit conversion, grazes and whatnot just onehitting entire groups at the beginning of a fight? 

 

There are tons of broken combinations, I don't see why a cipher after attribute changes will be any harder to balance than those

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

Yeah you will have very few very strong spells at the end of the fight in which you hardly did much damage before. It's by no means bad, but is it really as bad as a cleaving stance, carnage, devoted berserker with 50% hit to crit conversion, grazes and whatnot just onehitting entire groups at the beginning of a fight? 

 

There are tons of broken combinations, I don't see why a cipher after attribute changes will be any harder to balance than those

 

 

 

Yeah I'm not going to go build by build and compare vs. every other problem the game has. :shrug: 

 

Like, those other things probably need fixing too. I'm just frustrated because they're breaking an elegant system and in the process making my preferred class dramatically less effective. Maybe they'll be able to come up with some sort of theoretical fix but they haven't yet and I can't figure out any potential fixes that aren't extremely complicated or wouldn't cause even more secondary issues somewhere else. 

 

Ever try smoothing out bubbles in linoleum? Push it down one place, it pops up somewhere else? All the cipher fixes going forward from here look like that to me. 

[Insidous]

Yeah I'm not going to go build by build and compare vs. every other problem the game has. :shrug: 

 

Like, those other things probably need fixing too. I'm just frustrated because they're breaking an elegant system and in the process making my preferred class dramatically less effective. Maybe they'll be able to come up with some sort of theoretical fix but they haven't yet and I can't figure out any potential fixes that aren't extremely complicated or wouldn't cause even more secondary issues somewhere else. 

 

Ever try smoothing out bubbles in linoleum? Push it down one place, it pops up somewhere else? All the cipher fixes going forward from here look like that to me. 

 

 

 

Yeah that's fair I guess.

Many builds, characters and how classes play out will change dramatically in deadfire and different attributes certainly won't help with that. Hopefully it'll be worth it to alter an already great system

[Dr <3]

I think that we are overthinking the whole thing too much. The new beta will come soon, we will play it and try to break it in every possible way as usual, and in the end we will discuss on the forum what happened.

Nothing is set in stone, this is still early beta, it is the best time to try something new with the "expert" players.

But i really think that we have to test it before saying that everything is wrong ecc

[theBalthazar]

I am actually on the beta. Case of Druid. I do few tests and imagine the future change...

 

Spiritshift : Base Damage 19-30 (18 Might)

 

+5 might... (15 % damage)

 

25-38.

 

So 6 - 8 damage per attack with 5 pts of attributes. And we talk about ~8-15. (24 % to 45 % if we count negative points)

 

-----------------------

 

So, with the future change, druid will lost min 24 % damage (I let you imagine the loss...). It is all, except a minor change... You are drastically less powerful. What do you think about this math Gromnir ? I can always play the game yes : p But it is false to tell that it's pretty minor change...

 

It is worst than I imagined...

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

Nothing is set in stone, this is still early beta, it is the best time to try something new with the "expert" players.

 

Josh said exactly this on SA.

 

Since the proof of the pudding is in the eating, let's eat it and let the chef know what it tasted like.

[theBalthazar]

 let's eat it and let the chef know what it tasted like.

 

 

It is difficult to test for me.

 

Because if I take Druid for exemple, I will choose a side and build arround (more logical). The loss will be felt only by its absence.

 

Spiritshift ? > Shifter. (focus strength)

 

Spells ? > Fury. (Focus resolve)

 

I can test Basic druid (the base class is the big loser besides !), mixed in everything, but I know this is now not optimal.

 

to try something new with the "expert" players.

 

 

But yeah, I will still try... : p (Mitigate Cipher, Paladin and Druid especially. To see the difference.)

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

It is difficult to test for me.

 

I see your point, but mine is—right now there are builds you can make that kick ass, right?

 

Once the new beta drops, you won't be able to kick as much ass because you'll need to max out on too many attributes. Play the same build without maxing one of the attributes it needs, then comment on your experience: Was it good all the same? Was it more challenging in a good way? Was it frustrating because you weren't as powerful as before? Was it a total drag?

 

If most people complain that their hybrid builds now suck (and Ciphers suck even more than they already did), perhaps Josh will reconsider.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

It is difficult to test for me.

 

I see your point, but mine is—right now there are builds you can make that kick ass, right?

 

Once the new beta drops, you won't be able to kick as much ass because you'll need to max out on too many attributes. Play the same build without maxing one of the attributes it needs, then comment on your experience: Was it good all the same? Was it more challenging in a good way? Was it frustrating because you weren't as powerful as before? Was it a total drag?

 

If most people complain that their hybrid builds now suck (and Ciphers suck even more than they already did), perhaps Josh will reconsider.

 

 

 

Right now the build I'm planning on trying is a 10 str / res, 7 con, 16 dex 16 int 16 per build. Dex will give the most bang per stat point since it will still effectively boost both damage output and casting speed, nothing's taking a penalty except con, and you can get dex int and per to 21 with a +5 buff which seems fairly common. 

 

You're still losing a lot of offense and a lot of focus generation though so we'll see how it works out. One big problem is that there are so many different changes that have negatively impacted ciphers (even, for example, the elimination of Vancian casting making them relatively less effective) that it's hard to draw lines and connect up precisely why the class is having problems. 

[SaruNi]

Could try making summoned weapon damage scale with Resolve as well as Might. (No need to nerf casters at this point....) Alternately, if they really want to make Priests and Wizards choose between weapons or spells or hybrid based on Strength / Resolve points, they could just buff summoned weapon and spell base damage/healing for the hybrid.

 

For Ciphers... we'll see how patched penetration works. If it's still not enough they could just get their penetration bonus passives buffed (and increase the bonus from power level to make ascendant worth the micromanagement).

Edited November 29, 2017 by SaruNi

[AndreaColombo]

Right now the build I'm planning on trying is a 10 str / res, 7 con, 16 dex 16 int 16 per build.

 

Fairly sure you can have 10/10/10/16/16/16 once you factor in your background bonus; you don't have to take the CON penalty.

[theBalthazar]

I will try a base Druid like this (single class) :

 

Strength 18

Constitution 8

Dexterity 15

Perception 10

Intellect 18

Resolve 10

 

Problem : Druid lack of penetration... 

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Lamppost in Winter]

Josh speaks on the matter

[hilfazer]

I will try a base Druid like this (single class) :

 

Strength 18

Constitution 8

Dexterity 15

Perception 10

Intellect 18

Resolve 10

 

Problem : Druid lack of penetration... 

 

Looks like a Spiritshifting Druid. Spiritshift weapons in PoE had 5 DR bypass, it's estoc level of bypass. Don't Spiritshift weapons have estoc's penetration in PoE2?

[theBalthazar]

Spiritshift weapons in PoE had 5 DR bypass, it's estoc level of bypass. Don't Spiritshift weapons have estoc's penetration in PoE2?

 

 

Not 5 anymore (was high for old metagame)

Now it is 7 (base)+1 (claws) (Except if that increase with power level ? But no difference between single class and multiclass for now) 

 

To complete, there is a good combination with penetration + Accuracy. So Barbarian or Fighter. But this one will be Single class. To test his viability.

[rheingold]

I've always though resolve should be tied to the size of the aoe effect instead of intelligence. It make more sense, its determination essentially. And it never made sense for it to have a deflection bonus.

So for example a barbarians carnage ability would be tied to resolve instead of intelligence. Obviously there are major changes in Deadfire but I still think it would be the simplest and most elegant solution to making resolve important.

[SaruNi]

Ciphers who actually use their abilities already need high Perception (especially since Tactical Meld doesn't even grant accuracy now according to the logs), Dexterity (because Tactical Meld and Pain Block are the only ones with short casting time), and Might... making them split points between Might and Resolve is too much.

 

Perhaps Ciphers could also be buffed by making Tactical Meld lower-level (maybe just 4, if they really want to avoid having people in the beta multi-class Cipher just for the +accuracy... or maybe have a weaker quick-cast version of Tactical Meld at level 1 or 2) and having it give a bonus to focus generation to make up for the cost. Then single-class Ciphers wouldn't have to max perception to use their offensive powers effectively (if only against the target that the ally is attacking, which is a significant limitation, especially since the easiest way to build focus is usually to attack the weakest enemy...).   

 

And/or a fast-cast speed buff to reduce the need for Dexterity. If the developers are really worried about multi-class Cipher being too powerful they could make it not stack with other speed buffs (Nimble Inspiration)....

Edited November 30, 2017 by SaruNi