A case for not adding general abilities to Proficiencies

[KDubya]

This is in reference to the planned addition of the passive abilities from Fighters, barbarians and Rogues to the general public and choose-able from the Weapon Proficiency list on level up.

 

Counter arguments of "that's not how it was in PoE!!!" have no place in the discussion. That is a vastly different game based on vastly different mechanics. Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency.

 

 

Current System

​Weapon proficiencies add some nice fluff. You can use any weapon without penalty so these really become just a fluff type decision or the choice of a modal type to overcome a problem such as penetration. For most classes that's all there is to it.

 

Exceptions are Fighters and Barbarians as they get bonuses from using proficient weapons such that you would not use non-proficient weapons ever. This limits and focuses these two martial classes but there are enough picks available that it works out well. You are masters of particular specific weapons.

 

All the current classes do fine without access to the weapon styles and weapon focus. Everyone can use a shield, they just don't get the little extra deflection and Reflex boost that Fighters get. Everyone can dual wield and get -50% attack speed for free, Fighters can get a little better with an additional -20% for an ability pick.

 

  The defensive buffs such as Bull's Will are placed in various classes that are deemed to have them. Fighters in general by design are passive powerhouses, they get lots of passives and do well with minimal interaction from the player. Selecting a Fighter as a multi-class gives access to these at the cost of not choosing something else. TANSTAFL

 

 

​Option #1 - Adding these passives to every characters ability sheet

 

​The downside is that fitting all of these choices on screen will be a UI issue, not sure if insurmountable.

 

The upside is that the cost to everyone is the same and weapon proficiencies stay as fluff (which is good).

 

Unintended Consequences - Everyone will autopick Weapon Focus for the +6 accuracy. Even a Wizard spends a lot of time auto attacking and +6 accuracy makes a huge difference. This makes it not a choice. Now all enemies (and you if enemies can take it) are now easier to hit, PotD just became easier and if the game is re-balanced to add 6 defense to all enemies then anyone not taking this will be really hurt. 

 

Another unintended consequence is that now everyone will be as constrained by their weapon choices as Fighters and Barbarians were. You'd best have proficiency in the weapons you use as +6 is a huge boost to lose out on rather than the current cost of merely missing out on a modal.

 

The defensive buffs are nice but won't be an auto pick.

 

Fighters suffer as they main thing they bring to the multi-class is access to these passives, and Disciplined Barrage and the passive stances. So far anyway the Fighter actives are pretty poor and the level up choices can be better spent on the other class. Basically everyone gets a free third multi-class called 'Fighter-Lite'

 

 

​The proposed new system with passive available as weapon proficiency picks

 

​You get the same unintended consequences from the above option 1 but even worse. At creation you had best know what weapon you will want to use as you'll probably only get to use one. The reason for that is the second choice at creation will be Weapon Focus, if that's not available then you can get another weapon or a shield so choose wisely.

 

At the first opportunity, level four, you will take Weapon Focus. Anything else is just stupid.

 

At level seven you'll grab the weapon style appropriate to your character if melee or else grab one of the defensive boosts like Bull's Will. These are the most efficient choices by far and become a non choice due to that reason.

 

At level ten you will grab one of the defensive boosts not taken.

 

At level thirteen you will take another defensive boost.

 

At level sixteen you can grab quick pockets or the last defensive boost

 

At level nineteen if you skipped the weapon style previously you now have a free pick to grab another weapon. If you went with a weapon style you probably will value quick pockets more.

 

This above is what ever efficient leveling guide will have as the path to take. Basically everyone just signed up to be devoted but without the benefits If your end game weapon is not a Soul Bound you'd best pick that at creation.

 

Power creep now has all characters having +6 accuracy with a weapon, +10 boost to Will, Fortitude and Reflex, and any shield user will have an additional +6 deflection and a minimum of +14 Reflex. The game either gets a lot easier or the game gets rebalanced such that the enemies get stronger and not taking this optimal path will severely gimp you. All at the cost of fluff and freedom that the current system has.

 

Fighters in this new system get screwed even worse. If you choose the passives you want from your ability pool you end up as a poor shade of everyone else. You get a few additional weapon types while everyone else gets their own fancy abilities, talk about a bad trade. You'd best be multi-classed with something you like as you'll be spending most of your picks there. Pure Fighters will just be gimps who effectively have less ability picks since everyone will have your passives but you'll be stuck spending ability picks on them instead of weapon proficiency slots.

 

Pure monks run into an issue as well since most of their tier one choices will now be available to all. It will be especially bitter pill when you are forced to pick a passive boost with an ability pick due to no other choice and then forced to take a weapon specialization you will not use if you are using fists instead of the passive boost that others will take since you already took it.

 

Pro-tip avoid a Monk/Fighter as just about all of your early ability picks will be on passives that were really useful and unique but now are free to all at the cost of weapon proficiencies except for you, you'll be forced to spend your ability points.

 

Paradoxically the current master of specialization into a limited pool of weapons will become the masters of multiple weapon systems while everyone else becomes pigeonholed into single or perhaps two weapon types.

 

 

​Conclusion

​I hope they reconsider or at least add some new choices to the classes that previously had these passives. The power creep and pigeon holing of all classes with respect to weapon choices will be real and crippling.

 

To ruin all the freedom that is currently available so that some few vocal complainers can effectively get the benefits of multi-classing without the cost because they don't want to adjust to the new game system seems to be a bad decision.

[AndreaColombo]

Subbing thread.

[Climhazzard]

I agree.  When the beta first started I was on the fence about the loss of general passives, but after much playing I think it's beneficial.  All that needs to happen is classes with few or no passives need to be fleshed out a bit so that single classing has options and isn't boring.

 

Also I think more things (everything) should be affected by power level, bringing additional benefit to single classing.  Right now there's a ton of things that aren't affected by power level.

[KDubya]

I strongly agree and advocate that the elemental passives should be added to the various spell casters. If a Wizard wants to take the flame boosting passive instead of a spell choice that'd be great.

 

EDIT-

Having power levels do more and giving single classes more empowers sounds like a good trade off for not taking a multi-class.

Edited November 24, 2017 by KDubya

[AndreaColombo]

I agree power levels could be doing more than they are right now. AFAIK, they do affect a Monk’s Transcendent Suffering and a Druid’s Spiritshift, though.

[Katarack21]

You do realize that most people don't design their character from the ground up for efficient leveling into the most optimal character, right?

Also this line, here?

 

 

To ruin all the freedom that is currently available so that some few vocal complainers can effectively get the benefits of multi-classing without the cost because they don't want to adjust to the new game system seems to be a bad decision.

That's just a load of bitter crap.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Katarack21

[KDubya]

You do realize that most people don't design their character from the ground up for efficient leveling into the most optimal character, right?

 

Also this line, here?

 

 

To ruin all the freedom that is currently available so that some few vocal complainers can effectively get the benefits of multi-classing without the cost because they don't want to adjust to the new game system seems to be a bad decision.

That's just a load of bitter crap.

 

If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

Right now a non-Fighter or Barbarian gets no penalty from using any weapon they are not proficient in. Total freedom. When you then pick a proficiency you get a modal that adds fluff and is situationally useful or just a cool option. Its a win-win. Fighters and Barbarians get restricted in that they get extra bonuses from sticking with proficient weapons but that is fine as they get enough picks to cover many weapons.

 

Why do you want to get the passives on your characters? For more power. Anything else is just BS. You don't want 'weapon and shield style' on your Shield Bearer Paladin for fluff reasons, you want it for the +6 deflection and the +14 reflex boost.

[Lamppost in Winter]

Honestly I'm leaning towards having weapon styles just for Fighters again. I don't believe they've specified whether Weapon Focus will be part of the generics. Still in favour of defense talents being generic.

 

My suggestions, from most to least preferred:
 

1. Replace the old class passives with new more unique ones and/or, and I'm going to keep banging this particular drum, have some cool utility talents so picking between them is a more difficult choice. Could be a lot of work, yes.
2. Roll some of the class passives into the same page as the generic talents (similar to how PoE handled it) so you have to choose between them. Dunno if they'd be on the same page as weapon profs as well.
3. Put all those generic defense talents, and whatever additional generic talents there may or may not be on every class' passives, again, so you'd have to pick between a more unique class passive and the defense talent. Could really bloat the passive UI screen of course.

 

 

Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency.

 

 

Are you saying that RP reasons are not important, or just not important to your particular argument? 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[Katarack21]

 

You do realize that most people don't design their character from the ground up for efficient leveling into the most optimal character, right?

 

Also this line, here?

 

 

To ruin all the freedom that is currently available so that some few vocal complainers can effectively get the benefits of multi-classing without the cost because they don't want to adjust to the new game system seems to be a bad decision.

That's just a load of bitter crap.

 

If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics..

 

And less than 4% of people played PotD. While we're on the subject, I like how you throw in Story Mode there as an implied insult at my skill.

 

Most people play on Normal, and the game was *designed* so that any build can complete the game. Designing a character for most optimal capability may be how *you* play, but it's not how *most people* play. Most people just pick what looks cool and sounds like it might be effective, and are happy if it plays well and can kill ****--without worrying about whether is 20% less effective than some other build.

 

 

Why do you want to get the passives on your characters? For more power. Anything else is just BS. You don't want 'weapon and shield style' on your Shield Bearer Paladin for fluff reasons, you want it for the +6 deflection and the +14 reflex boost.

Wow. That's some pretty extreme arrogance right there. What you're really saying is "I can't possibly conceive of any way or reason to build a character that doesn't revolve around efficiency and numbers, and therefore I don't believe anybody else can, either."

Edited November 24, 2017 by Katarack21

[KDubya]

@Lampost in Winter - Role play is important but in this discussion I'd like to keep it o a purely mechanical level. "For roleplay" can justify anything. I can use "for roleplay" to ask for 'God-mode Gandalf' and break any semblance of game balance, and yes balance on a single player game matters.

 

 

@ Katarack - Please tell me why you want additional passives on your character? By definition passives do not actively increase fun actions on your part and only enhance your characters stats or 'power'.

[cheesevillain]

There's a small number of talents that are in danger of being autopicks such as weapon focus. If they do actually become autopicks, they'll be nerfed or removed.

I think they're powered up a little right now to give a little more distinction/balance to the classes they're currently exclusive too.

 

I think a lot of these power level issues are a matter of tuning, and not the fault of a general talent table

 

Fighters in this new system get screwed even worse. If you choose the passives you want from your ability pool you end up as a poor shade of everyone else. You get a few additional weapon types while everyone else gets their own fancy abilities, talk about a bad trade. You'd best be multi-classed with something you like as you'll be spending most of your picks there. Pure Fighters will just be gimps who effectively have less ability picks since everyone will have your passives but you'll be stuck spending ability picks on them instead of weapon proficiency slots.

 

If this does happen, they can easily crank up the power of the discipline stat, or the active fighter abilities, to make single class fighters competitive.

[dam]

Counter arguments of "that's not how it was in PoE!!!" have no place in the discussion. That is a vastly different game based on vastly different mechanics. Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency.

 

No place in the discussion ?

 

I'm afraid you're very sorely mistaken.

 

This thread is either your personal view of what things should be, and you have no wish to discuss them with anyone, just to get them out here.

If that's the case, you should state so and let this thread die of natural causes when it slips from the front page.

 

Or, it is an actual discussion, a debate, in which case it is not for you to set the terms of what are valid or acceptable points of view and arguments.

That, my fellow backer, would be a very arrogant (and mistaken indeed) stance.

 

 

 

If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

POE1 was not, is not, and will not be balanced around PotD.

POE2 is not, and very likely will not be balanced around PotD.

 

Obsidian have made it clear on several occasions (including in the description for PotD ingame really) that this is a special mode intended for the more hardcore of us.

 

PotD is the exception, not the rule.

 

 

 

Right now a non-Fighter or Barbarian gets no penalty from using any weapon they are not proficient in

 

Neither do fighters and barbarians.

There is no vanilla, out of the box penalty for using a weapon you're not proficient in.

Those come from choices you've made at character level-up when choosing your skills.

 

 

If you want an example of a character which does get an out-of-the-box disadvantage, refer Rogues.

 

Rogues lose their passive (sneak attack) for attacking an unflanked, unafflicted target.

Should sneak attacks be changed to always proc, that they not get a penalty ?

 

 

Edit: rogue example

Edited November 24, 2017 by dam

[dam]

@ Katarack - Please tell me why you want additional passives on your character? By definition passives do not actively increase fun actions on your part and only enhance your characters stats or 'power'.

 

Yeah no you are, in my opinion, mistaken here as well.

 

Rooting Pain is a passive.

Rooting Pain is hilarious when it procs all around you and interrupts every single enemy.

Three times.

Per second.

 

 

Backstab is a passive.

Backstab is hilarious when you crit that unaware priest for 130 pierce damage.

And even more so when you get to repeat the process 2 more times during the fight, with Shadowing Beyond's upgrade.

[dam]

Why do you want to get the passives on your characters? For more power. Anything else is just BS. You don't want 'weapon and shield style' on your Shield Bearer Paladin for fluff reasons, you want it for the +6 deflection and the +14 reflex boost.

Wow. That's some pretty extreme arrogance right there. What you're really saying is "I can't possibly conceive of any way or reason to build a character that doesn't revolve around efficiency and numbers, and therefore I don't believe anybody else can, either."

 

That my friend would be the definition of closed-mindedness, not arrogance

[Boeroer]

I agree power levels could be doing more than they are right now. AFAIK, they do affect a Monk’s Transcendent Suffering and a Druid’s Spiritshift, though.

They also boost healing a lot. I did a Nature Godlike Livegiver and healing goes through the roof with +9 power level (Wellspring of Live: +2, Livegiver: +2, Living Surge: +5 = healing effect more than doubled).

 

Topic and OP: I would have liked option #1. Not necessarily all passives have to be accessible by all classes. My initial post on the topic "Removing universal talents was a bad idea" was based on the experience that leveling up a single class character was very boring and railroady and that casters had no passives at all - and I wished for more choice (still do) - like the universal talents gave in PoE. I'm not too happy with the idea to put them into the same category as proficiencies.

 

For example I would have liked access to Two Handed Style for a Conjurer (summoned weapons specialist) and for a priest of Berath (can summon great sword), Bear's Fortitude for a Transmuter, Envenomed Strike for a Druid and so on - stuff like that, where it makes sense and gives some more meaningful choices without cluttering everything up with combinations nobody would take because it doesn't either fit the class or is completely rubbish.

 

Another option for me would have been to reinstanciate the talent choice as a seperate thing again. Pick an ability every level und maybe pick a talent every third or second level or whatever. THose could also include very special stuff like "improved explosives" or "strong shooting arm" for higher range with explosives, "nimble fingers" for an additional bonus for pickpocketing and whatnot. Not necessarily Two Handed Style and Weapon Focus, but why not...

Edited November 24, 2017 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

There's a small number of talents that are in danger of being autopicks such as weapon focus. If they do actually become autopicks, they'll be nerfed or removed.

I think they're powered up a little right now to give a little more distinction/balance to the classes they're currently exclusive too.

 

I think a lot of these power level issues are a matter of tuning, and not the fault of a general talent table

 

Fighters in this new system get screwed even worse. If you choose the passives you want from your ability pool you end up as a poor shade of everyone else. You get a few additional weapon types while everyone else gets their own fancy abilities, talk about a bad trade. You'd best be multi-classed with something you like as you'll be spending most of your picks there. Pure Fighters will just be gimps who effectively have less ability picks since everyone will have your passives but you'll be stuck spending ability picks on them instead of weapon proficiency slots.

 

If this does happen, they can easily crank up the power of the discipline stat, or the active fighter abilities, to make single class fighters competitive.

 

 

If the answer to avoiding the autopick of weapon focus is to remove it that sounds like a kick to the balls for Barbarians.

 

 

That requires additional changes to the Fighter class which no one has said will occur. If it does get changed then that will need to be a further discussion. Active abilities are all limited by drawing on the same power pool. I find that as a multi-class I'm better served to focus and spend my fighter resource on keeping Disciplined Strikes up at all times and skip any use of knockdown and Into the Fray. 

 

Also additional power creep for Fighters is not necessarily the answer or a good thing in general.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Counter arguments of "that's not how it was in PoE!!!" have no place in the discussion. That is a vastly different game based on vastly different mechanics. Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency.

 

No place in the discussion ?

 

I'm afraid you're very sorely mistaken.

 

This thread is either your personal view of what things should be, and you have no wish to discuss them with anyone, just to get them out here.

If that's the case, you should state so and let this thread die of natural causes when it slips from the front page.

 

Or, it is an actual discussion, a debate, in which case it is not for you to set the terms of what are valid or acceptable points of view and arguments.

That, my fellow backer, would be a very arrogant (and mistaken indeed) stance.

 

 

 

If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

POE1 was not, is not, and will not be balanced around PotD.

POE2 is not, and very likely will not be balanced around PotD.

 

Obsidian have made it clear on several occasions (including in the description for PotD ingame really) that this is a special mode intended for the more hardcore of us.

 

PotD is the exception, not the rule.

 

 

 

Right now a non-Fighter or Barbarian gets no penalty from using any weapon they are not proficient in

 

Neither do fighters and barbarians.

There is no vanilla, out of the box penalty for using a weapon you're not proficient in.

Those come from choices you've made at character level-up when choosing your skills.

 

 

If you want an example of a character which does get an out-of-the-box disadvantage, refer Rogues.

 

Rogues lose their passive (sneak attack) for attacking an unflanked, unafflicted target.

Should sneak attacks be changed to always proc, that they not get a penalty ?

 

 

Edit: rogue example

 

 

 

Not sure how Rogues needing to backstab is relevant to a discussion on power creep caused by giving everyone Weapon Focus?

 

Fighters who have graze on hit with proficient weapons lose that when they use something else. This is the penalty to which I am referring.

 

Just because something was in PoE does not mean it needs to be in Deadfire. Arguing for inclusion based on past inclusion does not further the discussion on whether something should be in the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ Katarack - Please tell me why you want additional passives on your character? By definition passives do not actively increase fun actions on your part and only enhance your characters stats or 'power'.

 

Yeah no you are, in my opinion, mistaken here as well.

 

Rooting Pain is a passive.

Rooting Pain is hilarious when it procs all around you and interrupts every single enemy.

Three times.

Per second.

 

 

Backstab is a passive.

Backstab is hilarious when you crit that unaware priest for 130 pierce damage.

And even more so when you get to repeat the process 2 more times during the fight, with Shadowing Beyond's upgrade.

 

 

I thought it was clear that the reference to passives was in regards to the fighter passives for weapon styles and the defensive boosting passives.

 

 

Again someone please give an explanation as to why a character needs access to a weapon style or a defensive boost other than for increased power?

[Lamppost in Winter]

Again someone please give an explanation as to why a character needs access to a weapon style or a defensive boost other than for increased power?

 

 

 

 

How about a brawler-type rogue (probably a Streetfighter)? Rogues need not be the standard dextrous, evasive type, yet the current system only allows for Snake's Reflexes. Having something like Bear's Fortitude would be more suitable for that character. Sure, you could multiclass to Fighter, but then it's not really a "brawler" rogue, because Fighters are themed around being disciplined and trained.

 

I've played on PoTD and did fine picking things that weren't necessarily mechanically optimal, but appropriate for what I wanted my character for me; it really doesn't require a fully min-maxed combat monster, and I'm not very good at the game to start with.

[dam]

 

There's a small number of talents that are in danger of being autopicks such as weapon focus. If they do actually become autopicks, they'll be nerfed or removed.

I think they're powered up a little right now to give a little more distinction/balance to the classes they're currently exclusive too.

 

I think a lot of these power level issues are a matter of tuning, and not the fault of a general talent table

 

Fighters in this new system get screwed even worse. If you choose the passives you want from your ability pool you end up as a poor shade of everyone else. You get a few additional weapon types while everyone else gets their own fancy abilities, talk about a bad trade. You'd best be multi-classed with something you like as you'll be spending most of your picks there. Pure Fighters will just be gimps who effectively have less ability picks since everyone will have your passives but you'll be stuck spending ability picks on them instead of weapon proficiency slots.

 

If this does happen, they can easily crank up the power of the discipline stat, or the active fighter abilities, to make single class fighters competitive.

 

 

If the answer to avoiding the autopick of weapon focus is to remove it that sounds like a kick to the balls for Barbarians.

 

 

That requires additional changes to the Fighter class which no one has said will occur. If it does get changed then that will need to be a further discussion. Active abilities are all limited by drawing on the same power pool. I find that as a multi-class I'm better served to focus and spend my fighter resource on keeping Disciplined Strikes up at all times and skip any use of knockdown and Into the Fray. 

 

Also additional power creep for Fighters is not necessarily the answer or a good thing in general.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Counter arguments of "that's not how it was in PoE!!!" have no place in the discussion. That is a vastly different game based on vastly different mechanics. Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency.

 

No place in the discussion ?

 

I'm afraid you're very sorely mistaken.

 

This thread is either your personal view of what things should be, and you have no wish to discuss them with anyone, just to get them out here.

If that's the case, you should state so and let this thread die of natural causes when it slips from the front page.

 

Or, it is an actual discussion, a debate, in which case it is not for you to set the terms of what are valid or acceptable points of view and arguments.

That, my fellow backer, would be a very arrogant (and mistaken indeed) stance.

 

 

 

If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

POE1 was not, is not, and will not be balanced around PotD.

POE2 is not, and very likely will not be balanced around PotD.

 

Obsidian have made it clear on several occasions (including in the description for PotD ingame really) that this is a special mode intended for the more hardcore of us.

 

PotD is the exception, not the rule.

 

 

 

Right now a non-Fighter or Barbarian gets no penalty from using any weapon they are not proficient in

 

Neither do fighters and barbarians.

There is no vanilla, out of the box penalty for using a weapon you're not proficient in.

Those come from choices you've made at character level-up when choosing your skills.

 

 

If you want an example of a character which does get an out-of-the-box disadvantage, refer Rogues.

 

Rogues lose their passive (sneak attack) for attacking an unflanked, unafflicted target.

Should sneak attacks be changed to always proc, that they not get a penalty ?

 

 

Edit: rogue example

 

 

 

Not sure how Rogues needing to backstab is relevant to a discussion on power creep caused by giving everyone Weapon Focus?

 

Fighters who have graze on hit with proficient weapons lose that when they use something else. This is the penalty to which I am referring.

 

Just because something was in PoE does not mean it needs to be in Deadfire. Arguing for inclusion based on past inclusion does not further the discussion on whether something should be in the game. 

 

 

You're using an example, I'm giving you another.

 

You're saying fighters get a penalty in a very specific case, I'm giving you another penalty in another very specific case.

If you dismiss the one as irrelevant, then the other is irrelevant as well.

 

 

 

As for "just because it was in POE1 [...] does not further the discussion", as a matter of fact it does.

If it was -and remained- in POE1, it was deemed sufficiently well implemented, balanced, and interesting.

That gives said mechanic or feature an edge for inclusion in the new game.

 

Besides, people need to make up their mind.

Some are asking for "health/endurance" split back solely on the grounds that it was in POE1 and they've gotten used to it.

And now here you are stating the exact opposite.

 

As you can see, there never will be pleasing everyone, so some kind of middle ground will have to be found.

 

 

 

 

@ Katarack - Please tell me why you want additional passives on your character? By definition passives do not actively increase fun actions on your part and only enhance your characters stats or 'power'.

 

Yeah no you are, in my opinion, mistaken here as well.

 

Rooting Pain is a passive.

Rooting Pain is hilarious when it procs all around you and interrupts every single enemy.

Three times.

Per second.

 

 

Backstab is a passive.

Backstab is hilarious when you crit that unaware priest for 130 pierce damage.

And even more so when you get to repeat the process 2 more times during the fight, with Shadowing Beyond's upgrade.

 

 

I thought it was clear that the reference to passives was in regards to the fighter passives for weapon styles and the defensive boosting passives.

 

 

Again someone please give an explanation as to why a character needs access to a weapon style or a defensive boost other than for increased power?

 

Nope, I'm afraid that wasn't clear, at least not to me, sorry.

 

 

You are working under the very misguided assumption that Obsidian wish to implement every single ability and passive as generally available.

That is simply pure speculation at this point my friend, there is no supporting evidence.

 

 

 

Now, I'm going to be a bit aggressive, I apologize in advance.

You keep going on about fighter this, fighter that.

Let's be honest here, this is all this is about.

Fighter this, fighter that.

There is no concern for any other class whatsoever, all you seem to care about are your precious fighters.

This is not speculation, this is fact, you've written it yourself : "the reference to passives was in regards to the fighter passives"

 

You're bitching like a crybaby for something that is not even implemented yet.

You're bitching over the possibility that things might not turn out how you'd like.

 

Perhaps you would better be served by "wait[ing] and see[ing]", as opposed to dismissing the possible change outright.

[KingDiamond]

 

 

 on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

 

This is complete bull****. One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design.

[KDubya]

 

Again someone please give an explanation as to why a character needs access to a weapon style or a defensive boost other than for increased power?

 

 

 

 

How about a brawler-type rogue (probably a Streetfighter)? Rogues need not be the standard dextrous, evasive type, yet the current system only allows for Snake's Reflexes. Having something like Bear's Fortitude would be more suitable for that character. Sure, you could multiclass to Fighter, but then it's not really a "brawler" rogue, because Fighters are themed around being disciplined and trained.

 

I've played on PoTD and did fine picking things that weren't necessarily mechanically optimal, but appropriate for what I wanted my character for me; it really doesn't require a fully min-maxed combat monster, and I'm not very good at the game to start with.

 

 

In this case I'd go with my option #1 and add the passive defense boosts to the ability list not the proficiency list.

 

The main point I'm trying to convey is that adding them to the proficiency list instead of the ability list is going to have unintended consequences. Well that and Weapon Focus is an autopick. Probably better to leave that one as a barbarian exclusive.

[Boeroer]

One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design.

Do you mean Path of the Damned (PotD) or Pillars of Eternity (PoE)?

 

But yes, with a Full Party you could totally go the non-optimal way in PoE with PotD difficulty.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Boeroer

[KingDiamond]

 

One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design.

Do you mean Path of the Damned (PotD) or Pillars of Eternity (PoE)?

 

But yes, with a Full Party you could totally go the non-optimal way in PoE with PotD difficulty.

 

I mean Path of the Damned with a full party.

[KDubya]

 

 

 

 on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

 

This is complete bull****. One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design.

 

 

So PotD is easy when you don't understand the game mechanics and pick abilities wily nily?

[dam]

 

 

 

 

 on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics.

 

 

This is complete bull****. One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design.

 

 

So PotD is easy when you don't understand the game mechanics and pick abilities wily nily?

 

He's never said it was easy, he said it was fine (which is, by the way, a subjective statement).

 

 

To be honest, you do seem to have a tendency for twisting others' words to whatever suits you at any given time, really...

[Lamppost in Winter]

In this case I'd go with my option #1 and add the passive defense boosts to the ability list not the proficiency list.

 

 

 

The main point I'm trying to convey is that adding them to the proficiency list instead of the ability list is going to have unintended consequences. Well that and Weapon Focus is an autopick. Probably better to leave that one as a barbarian exclusive.

 

 

I would be fine with this, though I could see it bloating the passive space on some of the passive screens depending on how many generics you want. 

 

Right now, though, I do think that weapon proficiencies are facing a problem where most people feel that after a certain number they're just picking excess proficiencies. Adding things that are already passives to the Talents list seems like a band-aid solution for that - where, and not to sound like a broken record, I think the best solution would be more unique talents (apart from the generics people want access to).

 

Edit: And since it's come up, I didn't say PoTD was easy (though many seem to hold this sentiment), and I certainly don't pick talents "willy nilly" - I just take RP stuff into consideration as well as mechanical benefit when levelling characters. This is probably making things harder for myself, but if you understand the mechanics, imperfect characters are still viable.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter