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IndiraLightfoot

It's not you, it's the current beta - On difficulty

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Well, I've tried that mod now that gives Vektor access to a number of basic weapons and armour, of fine quality and even exceptional.

 

Moreover, I levelled up all the mercenaries from scratch, and equipped them all with appropriate fine weapon and armour and a cloak each. Nothing more, except my main got those gauntlets of graze hits and wiz and priest got a hat, so no rings, or any other trinkets.

 

With a fighter/barbarian as my main, sporting two stilettos, all content in the game feels balanced, at least on Classic difficulty. 

This is the same content that I had a problem with even on the easiest mode, and I often got injuried, lots of resting, a few party wipes, etc.

 

Now, I went 9 encounters in a row on the Engwithan Ruins island (including a certain Titan construct, that in itself was a first) without a single character getting an injury. Even tougher fights later inside the Ruins feel like a breeze now. Only then did I feel the need to time the Frenzy of my main.

Simpler fights, I didn't have to babysit each party member. It felt like PoE1 combat in many respects.

 

This means that the true beta begins during the next patch, when people can equip their level 6 party members appropriately. Very slight improvements equipment-wise make a huge difference in how the game plays as far as combat goes.

 

So, most peeps having bashed their heads against this early beta, with the tools at their disposal, were actually much better than they thought. It wasn't you that needed to git gud, it was the beta.

 

This also means that there may be a hidden balance to the game that normal beta testing cannot detect.

 

This leaves me thinking (IMHO):

-The injury system is in fact balanced and not too harsh

-Penetration is more or less okay - but some sliding scale's needed

-Combat is slightly faster than this beta can display (Balanced a bit by that 1h-wpn bug, though)

 

Problems that still remain:

-Caster classes have indeed problems with a lot of slow and unimpactful spells, which also rarely hit (even the retargetting is wonky or off)

-Martial classes are in some respect slightly too slow (2H and big ranged wpns)

-Single classes need more variety to them, a bit more to choose from and pick up at each level-up.

-PoE1 had a lot of build freedom. Since we don't get a classless PoE2, it seems important to cherish that variety and creativity to char creation.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot
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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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we didn't "get" penetration until late in our first playthrough of the beta.

 

subsequent experimentation has proven less difficult, but increasing more frustrating.  is not the gameplay which frustrates but the meta gameplay... so to speak.  as long as Gromnir makes a party built 'round defeating armour, we win.

 

am doubtful the game is playing as intended, but am not certain.  frustrating.

 

HA! good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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we didn't "get" penetration until late in our first playthrough of the beta.

 

subsequent experimentation has proven less difficult, but increasing more frustrating.  is not the gameplay which frustrates but the meta gameplay... so to speak.  as long as Gromnir makes a party built 'round defeating armour, we win.

 

am doubtful the game is playing as intended, but am not certain.  frustrating.

 

HA! good Fun!

That's true. When I made my mercenary wizard, she only picked spells that can lower armour and such - so my meta knowledge made me roll a debuff mage, which normally would have been most counter-intuitive.

And I do think Penetration becomes so problematic when it is this simple, but big threshold which you need to climb over in a number of combat situs. Since grazes have become a luxury, the AP system needs to accommodate for that and be more forgiving, and in that way give us back grazes in disguise. Weird.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Classic isn't hard once you understand the systems.  Namely penetration and which spells are worth using or not using due to the lack of grazes.  Once you have those down you can steamroll quite easy.  

 

Knowing how inspirations work helps a lot too.

 

None of it is really easy to get from just picking up the game though.  Most likely your first play of the beta is going to be rough, even coming from PoE.  I'm assuming the beta wasn't really meant to hold your hand the way a full game might though, so I'm not really worried about it.  I expect a few pop up tutorials or something in release explaining inspirations at the least, and hopefully clearer spell descriptions.

 

As for penetration I'm crossing my fingers that it gets a complete overhaul.

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I'm not sure. At least in my case, I had already played the beta for like 7h, and I had learnt a lot, and I had meta knowledge. Still, getting that normal level-6:er equipment on each party member, the game went from "hard times each encounter (I'll likely make a mistake with at least two chars)" to "I can play the game pretty casually on Classic". I know I am a slow learner, but in Poe1, I was among the first who made that PtoD solo, so I'm pretty good at playing my cards tight in PoE1, at least. When I tried my best in this beta, I still stumbled and staggered more than I had expected on Classic, for instance. But with a little equipment, and me rolling up those characters myself, that made one heck of a difference.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Just beat my first playthrough on veteran. Beginning was tough as I was figuring mechanics but by the end I was rolling through enemies. I created a monk character (glass cannon subclass) and rolled with premade and preleveled companions. I found warrior’s mace modal very useful (lower armour). My main difficulties didn’t come from gameplay itself but from unfinished UI - people loosing health and me not noticing it in time, difficult to see what’s going on. I wonder if one handed speed made it too easy for me - my monk was ripping through everything.

 

Still, all of it looks very promising. I like unrestricted casting, battles feel much more involved and reactive than before. Injuries sometimes felt cheap, but it is something I could get used to. I like how grimoires work, though I am looking forward to having a wider choice of spells with next update. Stealth works well, allowing you for some sabotage before combat. I found rogues’ upgraded “teleport” which makes next attack paralyse enemy a bit OP. Love it though.

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Yeah, I'm much more optimistic now about the game. The encounter design is much better (at least White Marsh class). I found it pretty brilliant that traps leads to injuries (I missed a few of them, even on like my fourth playthrough). I had this annoying UI wavering problem - my mercenary wizard's action bar, for instance, and the portrait inside the Arrow pointer moving on the overland map, for me it was a blurry movement to it. And obviously, a lot of info missing when creating and levelling up characters.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Using AddItem to equip items like estocs and large shields--items I never *did* find in the actual beta--also makes it considerably easier.

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Well, I've tried that mod now that gives Vektor access to a number of basic weapons and armour, of fine quality and even exceptional.

 

Moreover, I levelled up all the mercenaries from scratch, and equipped them all with appropriate fine weapon and armour and a cloak each. Nothing more, except my main got those gauntlets of graze hits and wiz and priest got a hat, so no rings, or any other trinkets.

 

With a fighter/barbarian as my main, sporting two stilettos, all content in the game feels balanced, at least on Classic difficulty. 

This is the same content that I had a problem with even on the easiest mode, and I often got injuried, lots of resting, a few party wipes, etc.

 

Now, I went 9 encounters in a row on the Engwithan Ruins island (including a certain Titan construct, that in itself was a first) without a single character getting an injury. Even tougher fights later inside the Ruins feel like a breeze now. Only then did I feel the need to time the Frenzy of my main.

Simpler fights, I didn't have to babysit each party member. It felt like PoE1 combat in many respects.

 

This means that the true beta begins during the next patch, when people can equip their level 6 party members appropriately. Very slight improvements equipment-wise make a huge difference in how the game plays as far as combat goes.

 

So, most peeps having bashed their heads against this early beta, with the tools at their disposal, were actually much better than they thought. It wasn't you that needed to git gud, it was the beta.

 

This also means that there may be a hidden balance to the game that normal beta testing cannot detect.

 

This leaves me thinking (IMHO):

-The injury system is in fact balanced and not too harsh

-Penetration is more or less okay - but some sliding scale's needed

-Combat is slightly faster than this beta can display (Balanced a bit by that 1h-wpn bug, though)

 

Problems that still remain:

-Caster classes have indeed problems with a lot of slow and unimpactful spells, which also rarely hit (even the retargetting is wonky or off)

-Martial classes are in some respect slightly too slow (2H and big ranged wpns)

-Single classes need more variety to them, a bit more to choose from and pick up at each level-up.

-PoE1 had a lot of build freedom. Since we don't get a classless PoE2, it seems important to cherish that variety and creativity to char creation.

 

IDK, first playthrough with a Monk (and leveled companions with preset skills), I had none of these party wipe problems here.

I think it's closely tied to party composition.

 

 

Now onto 2 of your points.

 

Injury system :

Needs to be tuned to something greater than 4.

Raising the limit to 10 (but still applying stacking debuffs) would be much more reasonable, and let the more hardcore, stubborn players carry on without resting every area transition, even with 6 debuffs.

 

 

Penetration :

To be fair, I don't mind the current Pen mechanic , means your tank's gonna be god damned tanky as well... perhaps... eventually.

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we didn't "get" penetration until late in our first playthrough of the beta.

 

subsequent experimentation has proven less difficult, but increasing more frustrating.  is not the gameplay which frustrates but the meta gameplay... so to speak.  as long as Gromnir makes a party built 'round defeating armour, we win.

 

am doubtful the game is playing as intended, but am not certain.  frustrating.

 

HA! good Fun!

That's true. When I made my mercenary wizard, she only picked spells that can lower armour and such - so my meta knowledge made me roll a debuff mage, which normally would have been most counter-intuitive.

And I do think Penetration becomes so problematic when it is this simple, but big threshold which you need to climb over in a number of combat situs. Since grazes have become a luxury, the AP system needs to accommodate for that and be more forgiving, and in that way give us back grazes in disguise. Weird.

 

 

In the game's current state, CC and debuff spells seem much more attractive than damage spells.

 

Damage spells are defended by 2 mechanics (defenses to see if it hits, then armor for damage calculation) while CC/debuffs only need to pass one check.

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we didn't "get" penetration until late in our first playthrough of the beta.

 

subsequent experimentation has proven less difficult, but increasing more frustrating.  is not the gameplay which frustrates but the meta gameplay... so to speak.  as long as Gromnir makes a party built 'round defeating armour, we win.

 

am doubtful the game is playing as intended, but am not certain.  frustrating.

 

HA! good Fun!

That's true. When I made my mercenary wizard, she only picked spells that can lower armour and such - so my meta knowledge made me roll a debuff mage, which normally would have been most counter-intuitive.

And I do think Penetration becomes so problematic when it is this simple, but big threshold which you need to climb over in a number of combat situs. Since grazes have become a luxury, the AP system needs to accommodate for that and be more forgiving, and in that way give us back grazes in disguise. Weird.

 

 

In the game's current state, CC and debuff spells seem much more attractive than damage spells.

 

Damage spells are defended by 2 mechanics (defenses to see if it hits, then armor for damage calculation) while CC/debuffs only need to pass one check.

 

Not to mention the time it takes to cast a fireball that does 15 damage because langddfueaudfuath have way too much armor could have been spent auto-attacking if you were a martial class to do 40 damage per hit. Being a blaster is completely useless in the beta and I really hope they change it.

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You really have to prepare your blasting now: you have to make sure your PEN>AR, that you can graze (making Dire Blessing very powerful) and that you don't get interrupted (get Concentration). And if you did all this you can finally let go of a fireball. Wait... encounter's already over? Oh well...

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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You really have to prepare your blasting now: you have to make sure your PEN>AR, that you can graze (making Dire Blessing very powerful) and that you don't get interrupted (get Concentration). And if you did all this you can finally let go of a fireball. Wait... encounter's already over? Oh well...

 

That's the thing, there are precious too few ways to increase your pen (or reduce armor) right now.

 

 

A proper cast requires :

- eldritch aim

- merciless gaze

- expose weakness

 

 

That used to be the combo you'd cast in POE1 when  you really wanted that spell to have an impact.

Not to mention by the time it's cast, one of the more mobile enemies (hello shadow step) or a ranged attacker (hello redfin paralytic bolts) have taken care of your spellcaster.

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Honestly it's pretty hard to gauge difficulty right now with the one handed weapons over-performing. Every time I make a melee damage dealer specialized in one handed weapons, he just ends up out-damaging everyone else by a huge margin.

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Yes, you need Concentration for the longer casts - else you will get interrupted and be screwed.

 

Maybe a passive ability for casters to raise PEN would be ok. Or they will introduce this effect on grimoires or other items (like giving you universal PEN bonus or so). I guess they will come up with something because complaints about casters is massive atm.

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Yes, you need Concentration for the longer casts - else you will get interrupted and be screwed.

 

Maybe a passive ability for casters to raise PEN would be ok. Or they will introduce this effect on grimoires or other items (like giving you universal PEN bonus or so). I guess they will come up with something because complaints about casters is massive atm.

The pen issue for spells is a serious problem. It *sucks* waiting six seconds to cast a fireball and seeing a bloom of "No Pen".

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Yes, you need Concentration for the longer casts - else you will get interrupted and be screwed.

 

Maybe a passive ability for casters to raise PEN would be ok. Or they will introduce this effect on grimoires or other items (like giving you universal PEN bonus or so). I guess they will come up with something because complaints about casters is massive atm.

The pen issue for spells is a serious problem. It *sucks* waiting six seconds to cast a fireball and seeing a bloom of "No Pen".

 

Yeah, that No Pen explosion isn't the explosion you had in mind when casting the spell. And how on Earth did the baddies avoid any damage? Is even Penetration the right threshold to measure this stuff by? Shouldn't it be Reflexes or something, and then only for half damage? (Hehe, my D&D heritage suddenly took hold of my thinking reins...).

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Yes, you need Concentration for the longer casts - else you will get interrupted and be screwed.

 

Maybe a passive ability for casters to raise PEN would be ok. Or they will introduce this effect on grimoires or other items (like giving you universal PEN bonus or so). I guess they will come up with something because complaints about casters is massive atm.

The pen issue for spells is a serious problem. It *sucks* waiting six seconds to cast a fireball and seeing a bloom of "No Pen".

 

Yeah, that No Pen explosion isn't the explosion you had in mind when casting the spell. And how on Earth did the baddies avoid any damage? Is even Penetration the right threshold to measure this stuff by? Shouldn't it be Reflexes or something, and then only for half damage? (Hehe, my D&D heritage suddenly took hold of my thinking reins...).

 

To be fair, you've cast your fireball :

- it's checked first against the target's reflexes, because maybe dat bitch rolled out of the way like

- it also makes sense to check its damage against the target's fire protection, because maybe dat bitch (diff bitch, first bitch got away) has a ring of suck it fire protection.

 

 

The problem is that DND had tools in place to augment your pen (spell pen, greater spell pen, epic spell pen anyone ?).

 

 

Obsidian are, in fact, well acquainted with these mechanics because they're the ones who wrote Mask of the Betrayer, so they're the ones who implemented Epic Spell Pen.

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Yes, you need Concentration for the longer casts - else you will get interrupted and be screwed.

 

Maybe a passive ability for casters to raise PEN would be ok. Or they will introduce this effect on grimoires or other items (like giving you universal PEN bonus or so). I guess they will come up with something because complaints about casters is massive atm.

this is an example o' the fundamental difference 'tween boeroer and Gromnir pov regarding poe. provide a talent which then becomes a no-brainer selection is, in our opinion, bad design.  if weapon focus or weapon style feats is utilized by every weapon user with firing synapses, then such choice is not actual meaningful.  might as well simple have the initial weapon proficiency selections scale. is no different with a potential passive penetration talent.  the current most appealing cipher abilities for us is passive penetration boosts. we would be  similar inclined to take such a passive for any other caster if such were available.  boeroer has stated more than once how his current deadfire character build philosophy aligns with Gromnir's: stack penetration.  am not seeing a point o' general available talents which is well-nigh compulsory. 

 

there is an issue with the penetration mechanic.  the suggested upcoming penetration change from josh might be going too far in the opposite direction by diluting the impact o' armour in favor o' potential overwhelming damage builds, but is a beta so am not concerned-- let it play out... literally. regardless, whatever is fundamental wrong with penetration will not be fixed by throwing no-brainer talents at the problem.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps for ciphers the body attunement ability is kinda keen as it lowers foe ar and raises the cipher's by 5... is single target, but unlike the chanter invocation, it provides considerable offense and defensive power.  

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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At first I thought path of the damned was too hard, but I realized I was trying to do the harder quest first and the enemies were all 3 levels above my characters. It seems pretty balanced honestly.

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