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I think we basically agree in that the the Primary School should determine the Secondary Schools based on what it affects.

Whereas with the current system I don't really think that is occurring at all.

We do, though I only thought about what schools should be opposed. You raise a good point. For example, a conjurer can use enchantment spells, though they couldn’t be more different. I agree that if there is a rhyme or reason to their chart, I don’t see it.

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Indeed maybe its for balance reasons. Since Illusion seems to have gotten most of the defensive abilities, I can see why stacking that with conjuration or transmutation might cause issue and recovery time increase probably wouldn't impact you much if you just need some buffs at the start of combat.

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Indeed maybe its for balance reasons. Since Illusion seems to have gotten most of the defensive abilities, I can see why stacking that with conjuration or transmutation might cause issue and recovery time increase probably wouldn't impact you much if you just need some buffs at the start of combat.

 

 

It could be balance, but isn't the goal for all schools to be balanced in terms of usefulness?

 

More specifically, it may be they want specialist wizards to be somewhat well-rounded, ironically. If we think of it like this, and I am not saying my interpretations are 100% accurate:

 

Conjuration: summons

Enchantment: crowd control

Evocation: damage

Illusion: utility

Transmutation: buffs

 

It becomes:

 

Conjurer: summoning, utility, damage

Enchanter: crowd control, utility, buffs

Evoker: damage, buffs, summons

Illusionist: utility, summons, crowd control

Transmuter: buffs, crowd control, damage

 

And that makes a little more sense.

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Well, if there re any balance or utility or useability problems, they should get sorted out in the backer beta. I think Boeroer is among those going into the backer beta? In any case, I'm sure there are lots of people well experienced in RPG mechanics and stuff in it.

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The opposed schools aren't completely random. I suspected this was the case and drew up a chart to confirm:

 

tTTENnt.png

 

If anyone wants to have a robust discussion on what should be moved where, now we can do so more easily.

You could easily flip the schools on that diagram to whatever arrangement and it would make just as much sense. That's what I meant by random. None of these schools oppose eachother thematically which would make losing access completely understandable.

 

If Illusion and Enchantment are your favourite schools, you're simply out of luck because someone decided that should you specialize in one, you lose the other. The only way to get both Illusion and Enchantment is to pick Evoker subclass or not subclass at all. The system is just rigid and arbitrary.

 

Getting a penalty to all spells outside your chosen school makes sense because of focus. But being completely unable to cast two entire schools of spells "just because" doesn't.

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In terms of discovered grimoire, having the ability to merge spells from various different grimoire into a single grimoire may help alleviate the concern over unusable spells for the wizard subclasses.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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How so grimoire is still restricted by your restricted schools?

 

And yes if any schools go together it be Enchantment and Illusion since they are both screwing with other people's minds.

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How so grimoire is still restricted by your restricted schools?

 

That is correct. Even if grimoire you are holding contains a spell from a restricted school you sill won’t be able to cast it.


h1dczBG.jpg

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For comparison, I present the spell school list from Baldur's Gate:

 

Abjuration - Alteration
Conjuration - Divination
Enchantment - Invocation
Illusion - Necromancy

 

Alteration is basically transmutation, and abjuration is basically the generic control of magical energy -- mostly buffs and removing buffs. To abjure means to formally reject or renounce, so perhaps the idea behind the name is magical barriers.

 

Does this list make any more sense than POE2's?

Edited by PugPug

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Is Abjuration-Alteration the two types that the spell school has or is Abjuration the spell school and Alteration is the group of spells that it can't use?

 

Illusion-Necromancery is the wierd one out here though....

 

*goes off to find the wiki for Baldurs Gate*

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Its the pair listing Abj gives up Alt...I think it fits pretty well.

 

Illusions are about affecting minds....Necromancy is about affecting bodies. 

 

It certainly fits better then what we got plus you know they hade more schools overall and still only had to give up 1. 

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Illusions are about affecting minds....Necromancy is about affecting bodies. 

 

Illusions are about externally affecting the senses (PER); enchantments are about internally affecting minds (INT/RES). Necromancy seems like a specialized form of Transmutation, or possibly conjuration.

Edited by rjshae

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Its the pair listing Abj gives up Alt...I think it fits pretty well.

 

Illusions are about affecting minds....Necromancy is about affecting bodies.

 

It certainly fits better then what we got plus you know they hade more schools overall and still only had to give up 1.

DnD 3.5 complicates it by having you give up two schools, but you can choose which, but you can’t pick Divination as one of them. On the other hand if you specialize in Divination, you only have to lose one other school.

 

3.5 has 8 schools plus the “universal” school that is totally uninvolved on this. So they lose 25% if the spell schools to our 40%.

 

They can cast a spell from their school once more per day for each spell level (one more 1st level spell, one more 2nd level spell, etc.) and gain +2 to skill checks on the school, such as scribing scrolls.

 

What they do not get are a separate special ability or a bonus to casting the spells. They don’t get a penalty to other spells ether, though.

 

So special abilities must be pretty awesome. Perhaps it is that that we will use to decide our specialty, rather than our prohibited schools, as we have theorized.

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For comparison, I present the spell school list from Baldur's Gate:

 

Abjuration - Alteration

Conjuration - Divination

Enchantment - Invocation

Illusion - Necromancy

 

Alteration is basically transmutation, and abjuration is basically the generic control of magical energy -- mostly buffs and removing buffs. To abjure means to formally reject or renounce, so perhaps the idea behind the name is magical barriers.

 

Does this list make any more sense than POE2's?

The AD&D "opposing schools" system was rubbish which is why it's weird they would want to replicate it in PoE2.

 

At least in BG you only lose one school out of 8, so the current PoE system of axing 2/5 is actully much worse.

Edited by 1varangian

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DnD 3.5 complicates it by having you give up two schools, but you can choose which, but you can’t pick Divination as one of them. On the other hand if you specialize in Divination, you only have to lose one other school.

 

Divination in PoE is conspicuous by its absence, as is the lack of an invisibility spell. I guess they didn't want the Wizard to upstage sneaky characters?


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Well makes sense Wizard put the Fighter and Paladin out of Business in PoEI

Plus Divination works better for Table Tops then it does CRPGs.

 

But yes the Wizard has too many penalties lose 40% of your schools, take 20% Recover Penalty on another 40% of your Schools for a Power Level Buff and a Special Ability in the last 20%...that deal seems lacking if you ask me. I mean are your really going to have 2 good spells every spell level so as not to cast outside? I sure hope the Special Ability doesn't cost a spell slot, is highly tuned and scales as you level if you only get it late game well that is terrible.

 

Plus a buffed primary school is dubious if your evocation and you get 20% more damage and 20% bigger AoEs well that is great. But if I am Illusion and the only buff I get is Arcane Veil last longer well that is not great cause if already giving me 40 Deflection and I get 8 more well I was probably basically unhittable already. And the combat might not last long enough to exploit a duration buff. 

Edited by Skaddix

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DnD 3.5 complicates it by having you give up two schools, but you can choose which, but you can’t pick Divination as one of them. On the other hand if you specialize in Divination, you only have to lose one other school.

Divination in PoE is conspicuous by its absence, as is the lack of an invisibility spell. I guess they didn't want the Wizard to upstage sneaky characters?

Exactly. In 3e, DnD changed invisibility to instead give a large bonus to your hide skill. It did nothing for move silently and you could still be spotted. It was a good change.

 

Divination was kind of goofy in BG... there was a spell or two to spy an area of the map, I think, but basically aside from Identify the school’s only purpose was for dispelling invisibility. Better to have neither invisibility nor divination.

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Divination is always hard in a CRPG, it shines when you can solve problems without violence or by skipping straight to the Boss. It doesn't really have much pure offensive potential.

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DnD 3.5 complicates it by having you give up two schools, but you can choose which, but you can’t pick Divination as one of them. On the other hand if you specialize in Divination, you only have to lose one other school.

Divination in PoE is conspicuous by its absence, as is the lack of an invisibility spell. I guess they didn't want the Wizard to upstage sneaky characters?

Exactly. In 3e, DnD changed invisibility to instead give a large bonus to your hide skill. It did nothing for move silently and you could still be spotted. It was a good change.

 

I think there are some forms of invisibility that could be implemented without significantly displacing the sneak ability. For example:

  • Hide in Place: an illusion that lets your character remain invisible as long as no movement is made.
  • Lost to Me: an enchantment that mentally hides you from just one or two opponents.
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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I think that the OP brings up a very good point, that people will normally pick a specialist wizard based on what spells they will give up. For example in BG2 you almost HAD to pick Conjuror. You only lost Divination which you priest easily handled. Anything else was debilitating, but who wants to have one less spell per level?

 

I'd prefer to see either less downside...or more upside to the specialization. I think PoE 1 did an AMAZING job of giving wizards soooo many spells that work good. I feel like PoE had the best Wizard class I've seen in a very long time because they are so incredibly versatile. Want to wear armor and tank? Sure! Wanna nuke like crazy? Sure! Want to be tricky or have tons of CC? GREAT! It was so much fun to experiment.

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