Remove Restrictions and let this game breath

[Skaddix]

Isnt that standard RPG though if you dont know anything about the boss fight you are unlikely to beat them straight up the first time.

And if you do you try to extrapolate what the dragon would be weak against based on what you played before and what spells it casting.

If I am fighting the Dragon and it breathes fire well I am probably not going to cast fire spells against them.

[Goddard]

1. Plenty of surprise elements in combat.  BG2 is a prime example.  I'd love to play with you and see you beat every encounter on your first try on core D&D rules or better with a legit character.  The idea that a person can't get good at a game is pretty lame.

 

2. In order for you to be prepared, as much in real life where you pack a coat, you would need the spell, a mage, or the like, in order for you to have the petrification buff ready.  It makes those things useful.  So you think do I sell this protections from petrification, learn it, or use it.  Protection against fear is much the same thing.  If you are casting it pre-combat how it "balances" is that you have to reduced the number of spells you have.  How PoE works now all the effects are almost identical.  Stun, Paralyzed, Petrification, Daze..Confused.etc.. all are the same.  I assume they do that so it doesn't hurt people's feelings.  No imprisonment, not fatal petrification, no death spells.  No item gives any great effect.

 

3. It is a single player game.  No one is worried about you cheating.  Stop trying to limit people having fun in a game.  If some one wants to meta-game then let them.  Some one could also go over to http://gamebanshee.com, or http://sorcerers.net  that doesn't mean anything.  Maybe they like to play that way. Yes once you play a game you are better at it.  It is the same for PoE.  If it is BG2 which allows pre-buffs or not that really means nothing.  Some one can easily activate the cheat console and play in God mode and have a perfectly fun time.  Also one HUGE thing you are forgetting is that it is a roleplaying game.  In BG2 or any D&D game really the person knows the effects a beholder has if they have ever played.  They know what will happen with certain creatures as long as the developers implemented them correctly.  In roleplaying though it is about story.  Encounters are secondary unless you are talking about an Action Role Playing Game like Diablo which this isn't right?

 

4. It doesn't do any of the sort.  You are forgetting you only have so many spells.  If a Druid casts barkskin then they have one less spell.  They increased their AC, but that ins't to say it will stay on the character, or be effective against their next boss, but here is what it does do.  It allows the player to decide based on knowledge the player gets as the game unfolds. If it is their first play through or if they have "meta knowledge" I am sure they cast a specific spell before hand.  Fighting an encounter isn't going to make it more fun just because you can't pre-buff.  You still know what the creatures are going to do if you can pre-buff or not.  All games have elements you can exploit and they are for fun often.  Having pre-buffs or not doesn't change that.

 

In PoE almost all fights are the same.  You arrange your party in some configuration that gives you an advantage and protects your non-melee characters and you hit point grind.  A character being able to make it so you can't hurt them with some special attack you have doesn't mean the game is broken.  It means the player figures out how to win. Why is that bad?  That is a game.  If it is a puzzle, or a fight.

 

The style of combat in PoE doesn't make it more difficult because I have to cast spells while in combat only.  What makes it difficult is the fact every fight is essentially the same with one key difference throughout.  Some creatures have the ability to "stun, daze, confuse, paralyze" your character.  That is about it.  No effect is permanent or has long duration, no effect is anything you have to fear.  It is incredibly linear.  I can purposefully let players die because I know it has absolutely no effect on my game.  A vampire is nothing to fear because level drain has no longer term effect.  Getting level drained no only makes combat harder in BG2 it also hurts your pocket book, or if you have a cleric delays your game play.  It has multiple negative reinforcement effects to incentivize the player to wise up and learn how to defend against it for multiple reasons.  If you got good at BG2 that is because the game mechanics worked well.  It doesn't mean it is broken.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Goddard

[Sedrefilos]

From what I see Goddard007, you are 4 years late (seriously this time). During the development of the 1st game there was a group of people strongly arguing things should be done like the IE games. The devs had other ideas and proceeded with them. The group turned toxic and eventually left the forums and the game.

They didn't convice the devs to change their mind and I don't think it's gonna happen now.

I'll drop my final saying here and say thet the game is very unrestricted, especially compared to IE games, it's more realistic too (since you're dropping the realism argument) from the IE games too and more complex. Even if pre-buffing was an issue for me too, there are so many other features that make it stand out that I woulnd't bother demanding something so small back.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[Lephys]

The style of combat in PoE doesn't make it more difficult because I have to cast spells while in combat only.  What makes it difficult is the fact every fight is essentially the same with one key difference throughout.  Some creatures have the ability to "stun, daze, confuse, paralyze" your character.  That is about it.  No effect is permanent or has long duration, no effect is anything you have to fear.  It is incredibly linear.  I can purposefully let players die because I know it has absolutely no effect on my game.  A vampire is nothing to fear because level drain has no longer term effect.  Getting level drained no only makes combat harder in BG2 it also hurts your pocket book, or if you have a cleric delays your game play.  It has multiple negative reinforcement effects to incentivize the player to wise up and learn how to defend against it for multiple reasons.  If you got good at BG2 that is because the game mechanics worked well.  It doesn't mean it is broken.

 

It's not about making it more difficult. That's not the goal. The goal is to make your choices more significant. With pre-buffing, how do you get a level playing field? You go into combat where you were expected to "be prepared" via the encounter design, and you don't have buffs stacked all over your party, then you're at a severe disadvantage. You go into combat in which you aren't expected to be prepared, but you have buffs stacked on your party anyway? Now it's WAY too easy, and you can just do that every time.

 

You go into combat and neither side can have buffs or debuffs ready until they encounter one another and begin a battle? Everyone's always on a level playing field. That isn't to say you might not be outnumbered or overpowered by the enemy. Or you might literally be on an unlevel playing field because they're all standing on the cliffs above you, surrounding you. It's just that, "preparedness"-wise, you both have to start at the same point.

 

You're acting as though magical preparation is somehow an inherent part of real life. Like "Obviously, if we all had magic, we'd just be prepared." Well, don't you think that group of necromancers in the crypt you're about to enter would be prepared, too? What if every time you fought something and died and restarted to try again, the enemies remembered what they learned from fighting you, and pre-buffed themselves to counter your abilities and prebuffs? Wouldn't that make the most sense? Wouldn't that be your ideal situation, based on the reasoning you've presented in this thread, Goddard? The enemy should be just as prepared as you. Hell, if we're gonna go with that, then "Ignore Protection From Fire" should be a buff, too. Because, wouldn't you think, if you were an evil fire mage, that someone might be smart enough to cast a super commonly-known Protection From Fire" spell before attacking you?

 

Joking aside, they kind of have that. It's called "Dispel," which you yourself have brought up in here, and I KNOW I've brought it up this exact same way before. Realistically, all magical enemies should anticipate your ability to pre-buff (because in the world lore, everyone can just jog around beefing themselves up magically before combat to get the upper hand), so they should just be ready to dispel the crap out of you the second you enter combat. Then all that "more interesting" choice-making you did before combat (which was really your only valid choice, as I pointed out above) was for naught, as all your buffs are gone, except now you've wasted spells and are DEFINITELY going to lose because the encounter either required that you were buffed properly before combat to be a match for the enemies, OR it was ludicrously easy and it doesn't even matter that you got dispelled because you didn't need the buffs anyway, except now you're short on spells from the pre-buffing and dispelling, so now you're STILL going to lose because the encounter was still designed for you to have to use your spells and abilities in combat.

 

So, pre-buffs either give you an artificial "your party is always prepared, but enemies are not" advantage, OR it gives you nothing but busywork, as the enemies are going to be prepared as well, and your +5 cancels out with their +5, and everyone's just fighting at 0 again, after a bunch of useless work.

 

Honestly, buffs themselves that just protect you from stuff are never as interesting to me as more tool-oriented buffs. For example, "you're all just magically protected from fire" isn't as interesting, to me, as "this person's shield is now immune to fire damage, so if they see someone casting a fire spell, and can get over there and block appropriately, you can manage to negate that fire spell." Basically, I'm a fan of buffs leaning more towards granting people the ability to do cool stuff, rather than just passively boosting stats and/or negating things. Or, a bubble/partial bubble that would block fire spells would be cool. But it still requires strategic placement, etc. That's just another example of how magic can be designed different ways. The idea of slapping effects directly onto people's bodies = buffs is a very specific way of thinking about buffs. It's not THE natural way in which buffs were excavated from the ground or something. Human brains just invented all of this one day. I think having spells you can tactically use intelligently in combat is a much more interesting type of preparedness than "Okay guys, our numbers are all just tweaked such that the enemy will lose the fight now. YAY FOR PREPAREDNESS!"

[smjjames]

To agree with Lephys here, not sure why there is a fixation on pre-buffing since the origional posts point was to increase the options for doing stuff.

[Valci]

@Lephys - well said mate... I agree with that 100%.

 

@Goddard - that was precisely my point, that you can't beat a lot of harder encounters on the first try SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE METAGAME KNOWLEDGE which is flawed for me as a system.

 

The status effects thing I kind of agree with... I would like to have certain status effects be permanent and difficult to cure as long as they weren't all over the place and were connected to some interesting side-quests maybe. The fact of the matter is that in BG you only had to worry about them in theory. In practice you'd use a berserk ability to get immunity to everything including level drain and presto you're good. Or cast negative plane protection... BAM! as long as you had metagame knowledge you could avoid everything that was remotely nasty in the game... Which makes it lose it's purpose for me. Now if they implemented certain special (preferably random from special boss-type mobs maybe) permanent conditions that neither resting nor your magic could cure in PoE and they tied them in with side quests where you had to hunt down rare components for a cure etc. that I would be all for it and if even make it timed like you have x amount of time to do it or the character dies permanently. But it should be part of the story not just something I cast restoration on, then rest and yay, I'm good as new!

Edited October 27, 2017 by Valci

[rjshae]

Prebuffing works for table tops because its turned based and no one wants to spend the first half a fight buffing when you might have to wait 3-5 players and however many monsters to get back to your turn. So get the buffing done and enjoy the fight. 

 

That and there is no reload button.

[Skaddix]

 

Prebuffing works for table tops because its turned based and no one wants to spend the first half a fight buffing when you might have to wait 3-5 players and however many monsters to get back to your turn. So get the buffing done and enjoy the fight. 

 

That and there is no reload button.

 

 

Plus the buffs last a long time at least in DnD 3.5 and Pathfinder...you wake up toss on your buffs and your good to go for the rest of the day combat wise.

[smjjames]

Except you're talking about DnD, PoE1 and 2 aren't DnD. That's the difference between talking about DnD and something like  Baldurs Gate or Pillars of Eternity.

 

Again, what's with the fixation on pre-buffing? The OP wasn't fixated on pre-buffing.

Edited October 27, 2017 by smjjames

[Skaddix]

I agree we have drifted off topic. I mean PoE II is not going to let you cast spells outside of combat so it doesnt matter.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Skaddix

[Goddard]

I feel like people are really attempting to just shut the conversation down by suggesting questioning the game mechanics is toxic, or comparing PoE to D&D is bad, but I am not sure if you guys understand that claiming a game is a spiritual successor and then expecting people not to discuss the game and this game is suppose to have the spirit of and its system is pretty strange.

 

If you have your feelings hurt by this discussion then you don't have to reply.  I really just want to discuss the two systems.  I am more or less trying to debate not fight.

 

@smjjames yes the original discussion was about opening the game up and increasing options.  I think pre-buffing has a cascade of effects on play style and effects that trickles down to the spells, item effects, severity of effects after battle, resting, and death.  It is a pretty huge deal.  That isn't to say an alternative couldn't be thought up, but simply saying "it takes too many clicks", or "it hurts balance", or "it allows meta gaming" are things I think are very simplistic and that is why I keep discussing and pushing the issue.  I want to really get to the root of why people think that is some how futuristic and I am challenging those ideas because I do not believe your assumptions are correct.

 

Yes this game isn't D&D, but it pretty clearly takes A LOT of inspiration from current D&D versions.  The zeitgeist of the game is very much inline with many current versions of D&D so it follows rather then leads in my opinion on many aspects.

 

@Skaddix my friend if you do not want to speak about the topic, or you are attempting to suggest this thread should be closed or moved then simply stop discussing it, but I am just offering my view on something.  I am not insulting or at the very least not intentionally trying to hurt your feelings.

 

@Skaddix buffs do not last that long, some last for a lot time until completely saturated like stone skin.

 

@Valci I never said you needed meta information to beat an encounter.  You did.  What I said is that meta information makes you more powerful as it does with every game.  That is much bigger.  Guess what the smarter, or more wise you are about aspects of the games lore in which it draws upon will naturally make you better.  That is just life.  Nothing you can do about that unless of course you are trying to make a game so abstract no one can relate and it has a high learning curve.

 

Also why would it be a problem if you needed greater knowledge to play a game?  I of course think that would limit the baseline of the game and it wouldn't appeal to the masses which is usually an excuse to dumb things down, but that doesn't mean the game wouldn't be good.  It just means it wouldn't be placating the lowest common denominator with respects to their knowledge of a world or lore of the fantasy land.  I am not suggesting that is the solution, but I am challenging that assumption that is all.

 

I also do realize that talking to this forum will have a slanted view point towards people who are dogmatic about PoE's system because of course the people that dislike it will just leave and move on some place else.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Goddard

[Guest 4ward]

 

 

 

 

BG1 is very different from BG2 though. You don‘t prebuff before each battle in BG2, when you do then you don‘t use always the same spells but specific ones for the specific encounter. Those spells aren‘t applied to outright win you the battle but to prevent you from being oneshot and enable you to take on the enemy (you still face the wings of tanar-ri or dragon for example), usually those creatues also have allies with them. It creates the impression for the player that he‘s going up against creatures that have deadly abilities, i sorely miss that in modern games.

 

 

For me, any system that necessitates previous knowledge to beat an encounter is far from ideal. If you play the game for the first time, that implies that you would have to run into the dragon first in order to see what he casts, he kicks your arse and then you can load and cast the buffs. Meaning that its highly unlikely (almost impossible) that you will be beating one of those difficult encounters on the first try...  which for me is poor design.

 

 

perhaps i should have said, ‚enable you to take on the enemy at better odds‘, it‘s not necessary to beat an encounter, that depends how big your party is, what level, do you have a healer, what spells/items you have etc. You can also scout ahead, in planar prison you‘ll be warned first by raelis shae then by the gnome slave of the imminent danger ahead. I only reload if there‘s no way to turn the tides of the battle. Sometimes i retreat and/or heal if the odds are good. It‘s simply an additonal option for the player, it‘s on you to decide to take it or not.

 

 

 

The style of combat in PoE doesn't make it more difficult because I have to cast spells while in combat only.  What makes it difficult is the fact every fight is essentially the same with one key difference throughout.  Some creatures have the ability to "stun, daze, confuse, paralyze" your character.  That is about it.  No effect is permanent or has long duration, no effect is anything you have to fear.  It is incredibly linear.  I can purposefully let players die because I know it has absolutely no effect on my game.  A vampire is nothing to fear because level drain has no longer term effect.  Getting level drained no only makes combat harder in BG2 it also hurts your pocket book, or if you have a cleric delays your game play.  It has multiple negative reinforcement effects to incentivize the player to wise up and learn how to defend against it for multiple reasons.  If you got good at BG2 that is because the game mechanics worked well.  It doesn't mean it is broken.

 

It's not about making it more difficult. That's not the goal. The goal is to make your choices more significant. With pre-buffing, how do you get a level playing field? You go into combat where you were expected to "be prepared" via the encounter design, and you don't have buffs stacked all over your party, then you're at a severe disadvantage. You go into combat in which you aren't expected to be prepared, but you have buffs stacked on your party anyway? Now it's WAY too easy, and you can just do that every time.

 

You go into combat and neither side can have buffs or debuffs ready until they encounter one another and begin a battle? Everyone's always on a level playing field. That isn't to say you might not be outnumbered or overpowered by the enemy. Or you might literally be on an unlevel playing field because they're all standing on the cliffs above you, surrounding you. It's just that, "preparedness"-wise, you both have to start at the same point.

 

You're acting as though magical preparation is somehow an inherent part of real life. Like "Obviously, if we all had magic, we'd just be prepared." Well, don't you think that group of necromancers in the crypt you're about to enter would be prepared, too? What if every time you fought something and died and restarted to try again, the enemies remembered what they learned from fighting you, and pre-buffed themselves to counter your abilities and prebuffs? Wouldn't that make the most sense? Wouldn't that be your ideal situation, based on the reasoning you've presented in this thread, Goddard? The enemy should be just as prepared as you. Hell, if we're gonna go with that, then "Ignore Protection From Fire" should be a buff, too. Because, wouldn't you think, if you were an evil fire mage, that someone might be smart enough to cast a super commonly-known Protection From Fire" spell before attacking you?

 

Joking aside, they kind of have that. It's called "Dispel," which you yourself have brought up in here, and I KNOW I've brought it up this exact same way before. Realistically, all magical enemies should anticipate your ability to pre-buff (because in the world lore, everyone can just jog around beefing themselves up magically before combat to get the upper hand), so they should just be ready to dispel the crap out of you the second you enter combat. Then all that "more interesting" choice-making you did before combat (which was really your only valid choice, as I pointed out above) was for naught, as all your buffs are gone, except now you've wasted spells and are DEFINITELY going to lose because the encounter either required that you were buffed properly before combat to be a match for the enemies, OR it was ludicrously easy and it doesn't even matter that you got dispelled because you didn't need the buffs anyway, except now you're short on spells from the pre-buffing and dispelling, so now you're STILL going to lose because the encounter was still designed for you to have to use your spells and abilities in combat.

 

So, pre-buffs either give you an artificial "your party is always prepared, but enemies are not" advantage, OR it gives you nothing but busywork, as the enemies are going to be prepared as well, and your +5 cancels out with their +5, and everyone's just fighting at 0 again, after a bunch of useless work.

 

Honestly, buffs themselves that just protect you from stuff are never as interesting to me as more tool-oriented buffs. For example, "you're all just magically protected from fire" isn't as interesting, to me, as "this person's shield is now immune to fire damage, so if they see someone casting a fire spell, and can get over there and block appropriately, you can manage to negate that fire spell." Basically, I'm a fan of buffs leaning more towards granting people the ability to do cool stuff, rather than just passively boosting stats and/or negating things. Or, a bubble/partial bubble that would block fire spells would be cool. But it still requires strategic placement, etc. That's just another example of how magic can be designed different ways. The idea of slapping effects directly onto people's bodies = buffs is a very specific way of thinking about buffs. It's not THE natural way in which buffs were excavated from the ground or something. Human brains just invented all of this one day. I think having spells you can tactically use intelligently in combat is a much more interesting type of preparedness than "Okay guys, our numbers are all just tweaked such that the enemy will lose the fight now. YAY FOR PREPAREDNESS!"

 

 

sometimes in BG2 opponent mages will dispel an effect on you, that doesn‘t mean you‘re defenseless and that it‘s a magic button where suddenly all you protections are gone. I can breach the stoneskin but the enemy caster might still be immune to magic weapons and cast further.

[Guest 4ward]

@Lephys - well said mate... I agree with that 100%.

 

@Goddard - that was precisely my point, that you can't beat a lot of harder encounters on the first try SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE METAGAME KNOWLEDGE which is flawed for me as a system.

 

The status effects thing I kind of agree with... I would like to have certain status effects be permanent and difficult to cure as long as they weren't all over the place and were connected to some interesting side-quests maybe. The fact of the matter is that in BG you only had to worry about them in theory. In practice you'd use a berserk ability to get immunity to everything including level drain and presto you're good. Or cast negative plane protection... BAM! as long as you had metagame knowledge you could avoid everything that was remotely nasty in the game... Which makes it lose it's purpose for me. Now if they implemented certain special (preferably random from special boss-type mobs maybe) permanent conditions that neither resting nor your magic could cure in PoE and they tied them in with side quests where you had to hunt down rare components for a cure etc. that I would be all for it and if even make it timed like you have x amount of time to do it or the character dies permanently. But it should be part of the story not just something I cast restoration on, then rest and yay, I'm good as new!

 

no, metagame is not required, it helps but it‘s not required.

 

of course you you can do something against effects, that‘s countering. With berserk you have to have that guy in the party and he‘s not going to suddenly win the battle for you. Negative plane protection is a short duration spell, it won‘t get you through the entire fight against vampires. An amulet will, but they‘re rare, there‘s probably just one in the entire game.

[Torm51]

Petrify will definitely get you one shotted man. paralyze is a death sentence but not a one shot auto and the rest of the Debuffs make it somewhat easier to kill you or make it that you can't hit the broad side of Cad Nua with your sword. They aren't the same dude.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Torm51

[Lephys]

 

sometimes in BG2 opponent mages will dispel an effect on you, that doesn‘t mean you‘re defenseless and that it‘s a magic button where suddenly all you protections are gone. I can breach the stoneskin but the enemy caster might still be immune to magic weapons and cast further.

 

You're missing the point. You addressed like on leg of the centipede that is the point. Regardless of how much they can dispel in one shot, they're inherently always at a disadvantage, as they have to wait until combat starts to begin casting spells to affect the situation, whereas you do not. Is this what you want? A game world that throws unprepared enemies at your always-prepared party? That's a fair question.

 

@Goddard:

 

Some people are seemingly dismissing your arguments with one-line responses, yes. However, they also are already reading what all has been typed in your direction. But, I've noticed you say people are doing that but then you only respond to specific posts. I rather elaborately and probably over-explanatively detailed many of the problems with specifically things you've said are good about pre-buffing, and reasons it should be allowed (as have others), and you seem to be mostly overlooking those posts, whilst responding when a 10th post comes in saying "This is not DnD! You shouldn't want it to be exactly like DnD", then saying "Hmmm, no one seems to be able to say anything other than that they think I shouldn't want pre-buffing."

 

Many of us have laid it all out in detail, and we would appreciate it if you'd address our counter-points, which are most certainly not subjective dismissals.

[smjjames]

I wasn't trying to dismiss arguments or shut down the conversation, just trying to broaden it since pre-buffing isn't the only thing that could make things better.

 

Haven't been participating that much since I'm out of my depth anyway with no experience in DnD or Baldurs Gate. At least as far as the current line of discussion goes.

[rjshae]

Petrify will definitely get you one shotted man.

 

Which it shouldn't, not really. I mean if you turn into rock, you should be getting a pretty hefty DR bonus while it lasts. It should require a mining pick to even make a decent dint.

[Torm51]

 

Petrify will definitely get you one shotted man.

 

Which it shouldn't, not really. I mean if you turn into rock, you should be getting a pretty hefty DR bonus while it lasts. It should require a mining pick to even make a decent dint.

 

This is from the National Park Service: The quartz within the petrified wood is hard and brittle, fracturing easily when subjected to stress. 

 

When they talk about Petrify in the game I am sure you turn into a wood type substance which makes you brittle and easy to break.

[Guest 4ward]

 

 

sometimes in BG2 opponent mages will dispel an effect on you, that doesn‘t mean you‘re defenseless and that it‘s a magic button where suddenly all you protections are gone. I can breach the stoneskin but the enemy caster might still be immune to magic weapons and cast further.

 

You're missing the point. You addressed like on leg of the centipede that is the point. Regardless of how much they can dispel in one shot, they're inherently always at a disadvantage, as they have to wait until combat starts to begin casting spells to affect the situation, whereas you do not. Is this what you want? A game world that throws unprepared enemies at your always-prepared party? That's a fair question.

 

some enemy mages in BG2 have spells stored in their sequencers i don‘t remember i can even get or if at all then at high levels. They cast them instantly, i consider that as good as prebuffing. There‘s also that the line of sight is often longer than target range and enemy casters usually are placed behind the frontline so they can apply spells until i reach them (comparable to pillars where the player can initiate combat and then cast prayers with his chars until the enemy reaches them). I believe liches cast faster than my casters, i would need robe of vecna to have my mage cast as fast (the item costs something like 20000gp though) or i apply a speed potion that lasts longer than the spell but these are rare. I guess i‘m at an advantage if i cast a summon but then i don‘t have it for the remainder of the battle or i don‘t cast it or it could have been a spell that shouldn‘t have been allowed to be cast outside of combat stance.

[Valci]

I wasn't trying to dismiss arguments or shut down the conversation, just trying to broaden it since pre-buffing isn't the only thing that could make things better.

See but that right there is the point of disagreement. Many of us don't think pre-buffing would make things better... Quite the contrary in fact. And have explained why more then once. Ofc the fact of the matter is that it boils down to the preference of play style. As previously stated I prefer it when there is an even playing field between the heroes and the monsters and I don't much line one-shot kills from either side (like petrification or on the other side finger of death for instance). Casting something like greater malison followed by finger of death can make short work of even the toughest opponent like a dragon (or even a disintegrate spell)... And that defeats the purpose of the epic enemy that requires team work to defeat etc. I prefer less powerful magical effects that can turn a battle if used smartly and in combinations... One-shot skills/spells just aren't my thing. But I do acknowledge that some may like them... But for me, no argument will change my mind in that sense. And I'm mostly happy with how PoE has approached this aspect of the game... Could they add other interesting mechanics? Ofc. But for my part i'd prefer them to be in line with the strategy they've shown thus far...

Edited October 27, 2017 by Valci

[Seafarer]

I figure I will just toss my two cents in on the conversation. I see that a lot of people who might have played a lot of these games before or played a fair number of their pan and paper inspirations would be ok with the idea of pre-buffing and doing a fair amount of prep between fights. However I will be honest, if that existed in the first game, I likely would never have finished it. 

 

So, story time, POE was my first ever Isometric RPG. I am in my early twenties and grew up entirely on consoles, only getting a proper gaming PC a few years ago. I loved all the new games I could play and the different experiences and when I played POE, I fell in love and wanted to play so many more isometric RPGs. However being a scrub, while i loved the roleplaying, I was rather **** when I first started out because I was still learning, but being a life long gamer would not play on beginner or normal. I know, partly my fault, but I loved it all the same despite some hard fights. 

 

But if I needed to pre-buff or metagame to be successful, I likely would never have finished, never fallen in love with the genre and would not be waiting with baited breath for the sequel. So I must fall on the non-pre buff idea, if for no other reason as I want new comers like myself to find these great games. 

[Varana]

some enemy mages in BG2 have spells stored in their sequencers i don‘t remember i can even get or if at all then at high levels. They cast them instantly, i consider that as good as prebuffing.

That was BG2's answer to the problem that the player regularly enters a fight pre-buffed while the NPCs can't, as they only activate their AI routine upon sight (or more precisely, when being in range, leading to exploits like activating them stealthed and letting their buffs run out).

For technical reasons, it was difficult to have actual pre-buffing (and still is, seeing how video game AI still works on enemy aggro ranges) so they tried to emulate it to level the playing field and make the encounter more believable: On activation, the enemy mages applied their buffs through scripted insta-cast (even when they accompanied it with a "sequencer" message, that was usually just window-dressing).

Edited October 28, 2017 by Varana

[Karkarov]

Are we still comparing Eternity to D&D?

Okay, get over it, the ship sailed, bye bye.  This is not a new IP anymore, this is not a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate".  It is Pillars of Eternity 2, it is a sequel of Pillars of Eternity (not the spiritual kind), and it is going to use the Pillars of Eternity mechanics.

AKA: No god awful prebuffing.  No BS tic tac toe caster "counter the spell" fights.  No more "save or die".

 

If you didn't like the mechanics of Eternity 1, get ready to not like the mechanics of Eternity 2, because they are the same mechanics just with enhancements and tweaks.  This game is not, and will never be, D&D.  Thank god for that.

[rjshae]

 

 

Petrify will definitely get you one shotted man.

 

Which it shouldn't, not really. I mean if you turn into rock, you should be getting a pretty hefty DR bonus while it lasts. It should require a mining pick to even make a decent dint.

 

This is from the National Park Service: The quartz within the petrified wood is hard and brittle, fracturing easily when subjected to stress. 

 

When they talk about Petrify in the game I am sure you turn into a wood type substance which makes you brittle and easy to break.

 

Rocks are strong against compression, but weak against tension and shearing forces. The petrified figure should at least have a DR bonus versus crush and a smaller bonus versus slash. Damage is doubled, which covers the brittleness.

[Skaddix]

Are we still comparing Eternity to D&D?

 

Okay, get over it, the ship sailed, bye bye.  This is not a new IP anymore, this is not a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate".  It is Pillars of Eternity 2, it is a sequel of Pillars of Eternity (not the spiritual kind), and it is going to use the Pillars of Eternity mechanics.

 

AKA: No god awful prebuffing.  No BS tic tac toe caster "counter the spell" fights.  No more "save or die".

 

If you didn't like the mechanics of Eternity 1, get ready to not like the mechanics of Eternity 2, because they are the same mechanics just with enhancements and tweaks.  This game is not, and will never be, D&D.  Thank god for that.

 

 

The point is more most Western RPGs have their roots in D&D for better or for worse which makes it useful for comparison. However, the shift of spellcasters from Per Rest to Per Encounter does move us quite a distance away from D&D.