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Remove Restrictions and let this game breath


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#41
Wormerine

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@Lephys excellent post as usual.

I remember BG2 having those spells which you could prepare before going in combat. You would combine three low level spells which then you could quickly cast at once when needed. That was neat.

As it is right now I don’t feel like adding prebuffing makes any sense as spells don’t have an effect on the world except for combat. One of the things I really loved about Divinity is how reactive all skills were - you could use invisibility to sneak, teleportation to move party member through gap, or dangerous area, use flame, earth, air shields to bypass hazards, float your rogue to move through traps etc.

The thing with BG&BG2 was that they had utility spells: wish, unlocking, search for traps etc. It made more sense to cast those spells outside of combat, because they were useful outside of combat. I would be very happy to see those skills and spells have a wider application than killing stuff. Especially now, when there are no per rest abilities. Not only they would make exploration more engaging but further diverse your playthroughs as you would have different ways of interacting with the world around you with different characters.
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#42
Abel

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I quite liked prebuffing in BG 1 et 2 but i used it in some particular ways. Since i never spam rests, i usually only cast a bless spell before a fight, because i needed my pool of spells to last until the end of the dungeon, before getting some rest in an actual inn. The only fights i prefubbed fully were against Firkraag or Kangaax. The problem of prebuff only comes when people rest too often and abuse the mechanic. I did not, and so, prebuff was actually pretty fun, and not a chore.

 

But my point is more about casting outside of combat than prebuff. If i play en elf that has some phobia related to ****roaches, it would make sense that he would fireball it if he sees one in an inn. (i would actually do it in game). But i can't, because fireball (i guess) is combat only. Not all spells are, but most of them. And you could have some magic tricks to play with cards that could allow you to cheat at poker in the inn, or put a show in the street for some cheap money. Or have the good old "oeil du magicien" (eye of the magi?) explore an area for you, that you just entered. Possibilities for magic outside combat are limitless, and it's not all about prebuff. I would like to see more possiblities of use for magic in the world. Not just some ways of killing things in combat.


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#43
smjjames

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I quite liked prebuffing in BG 1 et 2 but i used it in some particular ways. Since i never spam rests, i usually only cast a bless spell before a fight, because i needed my pool of spells to last until the end of the dungeon, before getting some rest in an actual inn. The only fights i prefubbed fully were against Firkraag or Kangaax. The problem of prebuff only comes when people rest too often and abuse the mechanic. I did not, and so, prebuff was actually pretty fun, and not a chore.

 

But my point is more about casting outside of combat than prebuff. If i play en elf that has some phobia related to ****roaches, it would make sense that he would fireball it if he sees one in an inn. (i would actually do it in game). But i can't, because fireball (i guess) is combat only. Not all spells are, but most of them. And you could have some magic tricks to play with cards that could allow you to cheat at poker in the inn, or put a show in the street for some cheap money. Or have the good old "oeil du magicien" (eye of the magi?) explore an area for you, that you just entered. Possibilities for magic outside combat are limitless, and it's not all about prebuff. I would like to see more possiblities of use for magic in the world. Not just some ways of killing things in combat.

 

You should be able to do a fireball out of combat in PoE2. The update showing Neketaka has Aloth pranking some performers (not sure with what spell) and in the E3 vid, we see a fireball being used out of combat to clear a blockage. Also, there was one Josh Sawyer teaser video showcasing the directional positioning when casting something.

 

Yes, the possibilities of the use of magic outside of combat are unlimited, but we're limited by what we can do in the game engine.


Edited by smjjames, 17 October 2017 - 06:43 PM.

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#44
Abel

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I guess it wouldn't take much more than the puke animation or the specific way to solve another little side quest. Don't see where the limitation of the engine is a problem.



#45
daven

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Why is everyone arguing tooth and nail against every single thing this guy is saying? He's just chucking out ideas of things he'd like to see in the game.


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#46
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I guess it wouldn't take much more than the puke animation or the specific way to solve another little side quest. Don't see where the limitation of the engine is a problem.


The more moving/interactable parts you introduce to the game the bigger a chance of player breaking something. PoE was very restrictive and I hope Deadfire will open up.

#47
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Why is everyone arguing tooth and nail against every single thing this guy is saying? He's just chucking out ideas of things he'd like to see in the game.


Not everything, just prebuffing. :-D why do we argue knowing all well, that will change nothing? In my case I am curious why OP wants prebuffing. I still don’t really get it. But I know he wants it badly.

#48
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Why is everyone arguing tooth and nail against every single thing this guy is saying? He's just chucking out ideas of things he'd like to see in the game.


Not everything, just prebuffing. :-D why do we argue knowing all well, that will change nothing? In my case I am curious why OP wants prebuffing. I still don’t really get it. But I know he wants it badly.

 

Yeah I'm not really interested in it either. Pre buffing was really just a hassle in them old games, eating food in Eternity is a hassle. I just don't do it even if it puts me at a disadvantage because it's a hassle.


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#49
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Why is everyone arguing tooth and nail against every single thing this guy is saying? He's just chucking out ideas of things he'd like to see in the game.


Not everything, just prebuffing. :-D why do we argue knowing all well, that will change nothing? In my case I am curious why OP wants prebuffing. I still don’t really get it. But I know he wants it badly.

 

 

Same reason as always...

 

People want prebuffing, because this is how it used to be in BG.

People want party of 6 characters, because this is how it used to be in BG.

People want experience points for killing mobs, because this is how it used to be in BG.

People want vancian casting, because this is how it used to be in BG.

People want this game to resemble BG, because this is how it used to be in BG.


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#50
DigitalCrack

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Just a small example.

A small example of a stroy you made in your head after an imaginary (or real) session you played that lasted for hours or maybe days (since the dungeon was 3 levels down) but it is only 1 hour tops in video game time. I don't see how all these descriptions add lore or excuse pre-buffing in Pillars really. You go to fight a werebeast, ok you have your spells you have your potions you have the food, you use them during combat and that's it. Why pre-buff. Again it deosen't add anything to the gameplay. Imo, you need a game focused mainly on monster hunting in order to excuse pre-buffing and even then, I'd rather it is a single-character 3rd or 1st person game so there's only you you need to pre-buff.
In any case, Pillars has maybe the less restrictions of any other IE-like game so I don't believe adding the freedom to bore yourself with repetitive pre-buffing is good. Scouting ahead and preparing your traps or your party positioning is enough imo.
The thing is, as I see it, you like to make stories of your own when playing the game and that's good fo course. I do sometimes pause and let the scenery and the encounter sink in and appriciate the moment but I don't jump out of the video game and land in a tabletop one while doing so. I know what I'm playing and why.
Not to derail the topic but a monster hunting crpg sounds brilliant! make it a 4 person party and add in the investigative portion where you have to use your skills to figure the monster type and method of its killings which would end in an epic battle with the monster(s). If done right could be amazing. The monster hunting quests were my favourite part of witcher 3 would be great to see it translated to a crpg where you can add in all the different nuanced skill checks and what not for different aspects of the investigation portion.

Edited by DigitalCrack, 18 October 2017 - 03:49 AM.

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#51
Goddard

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Yeah I think it could be done and I remember seeing it all the time in these games to a lesser degree.  You go walking through a forest and they will have some foot prints show up with some internal dialog pop up text. 

 

I mean we constantly have quests, but these quests don't have to be limited to just doing skill checks for a hidden door, or opening a lock.  

 

Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests.  

 

Dynamic systems make things more fun to me is my entire meaning behind using pre-buffing.  Some people say they don't like it because they personally created a formula of combat where they would constantly cast the same spells and that is fine, but I didn't do that and would say it isn't required.  Especially considering you have only a limited number of spells even more so in the Infinity Engine games.  Truly epic scrolls are expensive and rare and since you can actually account for ever single game item as opposed to a massively online multiplayer game it can be balanced much easier because you know in this land we only have 4 protection from undead scrolls and sometimes they were hard to find, or even cursed.  We had a HUGE difference in the casting system.  All spell casters now are more like Sorcerers if you compare it to IE.  With a mage, cleric, and druid you had specific spells you would put in your spell book and that is all you could cast.  Now all games seem to let you just cast a specific amount of any spell level.  I don't understand why almost all games have adopted this same thing.  Sword Coast Legends was even more like Diablo.

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

I would maybe have mages protected with stone skin or invisibility and then just normal stuff before combat if I got the feeling something intense was about to happen.  When you have to take pre-buffing into account it is more natural combat.  I think the concept of health and endurance is pretty cool though so not totally hating on everything.

 

Also if you think about the feat system and weapon specializations.  Why is it all games just copy that same idea is again something that doesn't make sense.  

 

Just because something is new doesn't always make it better.

 

Look at the Nexus 6 vs all the new google nexus and pixel phones.  :D jk


Edited by Goddard, 18 October 2017 - 12:40 PM.


#52
smjjames

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Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests. 

 

There might actually be such skill checks in PoE2. The video in update 40 shows some passive skills like insight and history and one of Josh Sawyers teasers had some history skill related thing to an item in conversation. Those skills definetly open the possibility.

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

Seems to be a gameplay compromise since they wanted to change the health system from the way it was before.



#53
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Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests. 

 

There might actually be such skill checks in PoE2. The video in update 40 shows some passive skills like insight and history and one of Josh Sawyers teasers had some history skill related thing to an item in conversation. Those skills definetly open the possibility.

 

 

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

Seems to be a gameplay compromise since they wanted to change the health system from the way it was before.

 

Yeah since they decided not to have casting outside of combat you couldn't heal your party members with a spell after a fight, or quickly cast some poison neutralization.  Sounds like a limitation.

 

In a single player game time is always a factor because you never know when a party member will leave, or a quest would fall off and healing party members and resting had to be juggled to a degree.  Can't just sleep for a week to have all your characters heal because you know one of your party members is gonna leave. haha  Some NPCs were jerks and self centered and some were "nice". 

 

That video is funny by the way.


Edited by Goddard, 18 October 2017 - 01:07 PM.


#54
smjjames

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Party members don't randomly come and go in PoE, I don't know what you're talking about with not knowing when one of your party members will leave. Sounds like you're talking about multiplayer, not single player, and I suspect there may be some sarcasm in there.



#55
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I think a lot of stuff like healing post combat or using an antidote potion is redundant... In the sense that it is implied. If you had to you'd do it but it's a time waster... So many actions/clicks and time spent doing nothing to further the "plot" or continue exploring etc. In BG (which as I mentioned I'm currently replaying) I found myself abusing resting simply because wasting so many clicks on healing/neutralize poison and the like gets really old really fast. You need to select the healer, click on the casting icon, click on the spell then click on the target hero... And then wait for the casting animation to conclude. Rinse and repeat until everyone is topped off... I much prefer the streamlined version of modern games tbh and the health/endurance system was for me at least a nice touch. I don't know about anyone else but my gaming time is limited as it is... I'd rather not waste time unnecessarily.

Edited by Valci, 18 October 2017 - 01:16 PM.

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#56
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I think a lot of stuff like healing post combat or using an antidote potion is redundant... In the sense that it is implied. If you had to you'd do it but it's a time waster... So many actions/clicks and time spent doing nothing to further the "plot" or continue exploring etc. In BG (which as I mentioned I'm currently replaying) I found myself abusing resting simply because wasting so many clicks on healing/neutralize poison and the like gets really old really fast. You need to select the healer, click on the casting icon, click on the spell then click on the target hero... And then wait for the casting animation to conclude. Rinse and repeat until everyone is topped off... I much prefer the streamlined version of modern games tbh and the health/endurance system was for me at least a nice touch. I don't know about anyone else but my having time is limited as it is... I'd rather not waste time unnecessarily.

 

If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D



#57
smjjames

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Also, you CAN cast outside of combat, you're making no sense and seem to be going out of your way to be sarcastic atm.



#58
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If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D

 

 

In short ??? No. There are such things as quality of life improvements of which this is one. 


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#59
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If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D

 

 

In short ??? No. There are such things as quality of life improvements of which this is one. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I think some examples of quality of life are intelligence of the game like clicking on a locked chest sends the best man for the job and traps, or picking up loot sends the closest in the party.  Things like that are quality of life, or having things sent to "stash" or infinity bag of holding.  

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.


Edited by Goddard, 18 October 2017 - 01:43 PM.


#60
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Yeah I think some examples of quality of life are intelligence of the game like clicking on a locked chest sends the best man for the job and traps, or picking up loot sends the closest in the party.  Things like that are quality of life, or having things sent to "stash" or infinity bag of holding.  

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

 

 

For me at least it does nothing of the sort... I always had at least 1 cleric/druid in my party with heals and poison removal on hand... and the main character got poison removal as a special ability if you played as a "good" aligned character so you were guaranteed to have it when necessary. Besides antidotes were never in short supply. So all it did was add unnecessary clicks to the equation for me. I got nothing from it... Besides in PoE its endurance that regenerates not health which is a different resource... and personally i prefer the new system... makes the game much more streamlined...


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