The issue of "obligatory" equipment for statpoints

[FAMI1990]

The biggest issue I´ve always had with pillars 1 was the ammount of "obligatory" items required to pass at least most statchecks, wether they were in scripted actions or dialogs.

 

You were punished by the game, if you chose different than an item with +3 or +4 attributebonus.

Whats even worse, those items were rarely worth the effort, since they both exhibited useless or even downgrading second enchantments (speedpenality or spellbound) and occupy itemslots better used on other items/effects (bonus spells for example).

 

However what makes these items so terrible is the fact that they have little to no alternatives.

The player cannot enchant items with a +4 boost to any stat.

They cannot anything except armor, weapons and shields to begin with (so no headgear, rings, etc.).

 

I wish Obsidian would remove this issue in upcoming games (probably to late for POE2 now) or at least not make matters worse as with the white march dlcs (I HATE those rings +4)

 

As I can see it they could:

1 Add a wider variety of items with the higest available attribute-bonus

2 Making all attribute-enchantments usable (as an option for crafting) to the players

3 Implementing bonus attributepoints as a part of characterdevelopement

 

The last option could be done either by granting points upon level-up (easy way, but unpersonal) or by rewarding points for progressing the characters reputation.

 

As for the last mentioned option, let me explain.

Pillars 1 had 10 reputations/allignments, always in opposing pairs (benevolent/cruel, diplomatic/aggressiv, clever/stoic, passionate/rational and honest/deceptive)

 

Each of them maxed out (to my knowledge) at 4.

If each reputation grants boni to an attribute that seems logical for it (aggressive->might, benevolent->perception, clever->intelligence) based on its own progress and countered by its oposite, the players would be both rewarded and supported for their chosen playstyle.

 

Example1:   4 Benevolent/ 0 Cruel -> +4 Perception/ 0 Might

Example2:   4 Ben/ 1 Cr -> +3P/+1M

Example3/4:2 Ben/ 2 Cr OR 3 Ben/ 3Cr OR 4 Ben/ 3Cr -> +2P/+2M for ambivalente personality

etc.

 

What is your opinion on the subject?

[draego]

I disagree. what you call obligatory, i call making role playing choices. You shouldn't be able to easily make all stat checks in the game. It seems to me you want the game to make it easier for you to power game.

 

They are changing item attribute bonuses in POE2. They are making it so item classes like 'gloves' only have one type of attribute bonus to eliminate all stacking overlap issues. This will make attribute bonuses more rare i suppose. The thing about attributes in this game is they are less important than abilities, talents, and equipment for fighting mechanics so i would generally have maybe one item, sometimes two with attribute bonuses. It seems fine to me to have limited attribute bonuses since they drive both the role playing and mechanical aspects of the game. Then you can have more balanced role playing stat checks instead of having to design the game around extremely high outlier stats.

 

Crafting in POE2 will also be more limited. You wont be able to do all the crafting you do in POE1. They are doing this to make equipment you find more unique. ( And they think players should have to switch lots of equipment around because thats more fun or something   ) I dont love all the crafting changes but if they allowed crafting to include attribute bonuses then i would want it to be modest similar to POE1.

 

And your final suggestion is also more about power gaming. i mean why should an aggressive person get more might. This type of stuff would heavily direct players to dispositions instead of letting the player get these disposition organically which would hurt role playing. I do get it from a power gaming perspective, I just skew toward role playing more. Not that i dont enjoy some crunchiness. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by draego

[oddrheia]

The problem with your suggestion of adding + attributes on top of reputation is that it would push a player meta-gaming towards a certain reputation to supplement the build. Want to have stronger dps? Cruel it is.... 

 

Divinity: Original Sin (the first one, not the recent release) done it to a lesser extent by awarding minor skill bonuses for rp choices that formed a player character's personality trait. For example, choices leading to a 'Bold' personality granted + 1 initiative, while the opposite 'Cautious' personality granted + 1 sneaking.  While the bonuses were far less significant than + attribute points, it still led to a fairly common conundrum of : do I rp my character, or do I meta-game them so they perform mechanics like I want them to?

 

It was not a very popular feature.

 

I do agree there was a problem in POE between how attribute checks interacted with game mechanics. It was hard to play an insightful mage with a silver tongue, if you wanted to be a powerful  spellslinger, and not a controller or tank, for example. I mean you could do it, but you would have a comparatively sub-optimal build. + high attribute equipment helped to 'hybridize' a bit, so I did not mind it as much.

 

That said, I would welcome more crafting choices as alternatives to 'uniques'

Edited October 10, 2017 by oddrheia

[FAMI1990]

Thanks for the input.

I see both your points, espacially about the risk of pushing players into one or another direction.

I haven´t played Divinity:OS myself, but take your word for it if you say the concept failed before.

 

The issue I wanted to adress is the fact, that statchecks are ridicilous high even early on in the game, while the only way to increase your attributes permanently is to make certain decisions (draining captured souls, sacrificing companions, making a truce with a horned sociopath that tried to have you killed).

Now THAT is what I call forcing players into a certain direction (choosing between three bonus points versus unique spells AND topnotch armorenchantment).

 

Besides, paladin- and priest-subclasses already reward/punish certain playstyles.

I,m not sure if it´s "pushing" if its supportiv for your displayed playstyle.

 

Besides, the main issue is that "uniques" have been necessary and thus occupied itemslots that could be used more usefull (or at least individually)

And besides statchecks, stats are of little necessity. Weaponenchantments and boni granted by skills have always exceeded the boni granted by stats (damagebonus for might, accuracy for perception etc.) as soon as you conquered Caed Nua.

So it´s not really about powergaming in my opinion.

[FAMI1990]

Let´s be honest: if you earned points in stats you don´t need (like +Perception but you want might) you can always visit your next trader or inkeep and rearrange your stats for a modest fee (compared to what riches you accumulate in game).

 

(Except if you´re a mage that invested thousands into learning spells that would be lost. )

 

This is my favorite aspect of the games mechanics.

 

But as it is now, the Items in question pose the only alternative to a path of forced decisions or rearrange your equipement, swallow dragon eggs and such, or making certain decisions just to accomodate to the next situation (resolvecheck of 20 seriously )

 

And as I pointed out previously, pushing one attribute is of little consequence for actual gameplay, since your items and skills will provide better boni anyways.

 

Perhaps I exaggerated with the +4 examples for reputation-rewards, but lets assume half or even just 1 point for progressing.

five points could already make a big difference for checks (like passing most dialogue, yet not falling into every scripted pit)

 

I don´t want the games to become easier, but leaving me more room for my individual decisions, whether it is about what I do, what I wear, what I eat or in which room I sleep.

 

This micromanagement is nothing but tiresome.

[draego]

Thanks for the input.

I see both your points, espacially about the risk of pushing players into one or another direction.

I haven´t played Divinity:OS myself, but take your word for it if you say the concept failed before.

 

The issue I wanted to adress is the fact, that statchecks are ridicilous high even early on in the game, while the only way to increase your attributes permanently is to make certain decisions (draining captured souls, sacrificing companions, making a truce with a horned sociopath that tried to have you killed).

Now THAT is what I call forcing players into a certain direction (choosing between three bonus points versus unique spells AND topnotch armorenchantment).

 

Besides, paladin- and priest-subclasses already reward/punish certain playstyles.

I,m not sure if it´s "pushing" if its supportiv for your displayed playstyle.

 

Besides, the main issue is that "uniques" have been necessary and thus occupied itemslots that could be used more usefull (or at least individually)

And besides statchecks, stats are of little necessity. Weaponenchantments and boni granted by skills have always exceeded the boni granted by stats (damagebonus for might, accuracy for perception etc.) as soon as you conquered Caed Nua.

So it´s not really about powergaming in my opinion.

 

I was thinking the same thing about priest and paladins. That is why i dont like them as my MC. They get you to think of conversations in more of a meta/power gaming  perspective instead of roleplaying choices and make the player worry more about what a writer thought was clever, aggressive, passionate. When in your mind you may feel those dispositions match different dialogue choices.

 

I have heard that before about the permanent stats. I think this is just a playstyle difference. I never really worried about permanent attributes. I just picked on or two attributes that were really important to me like resolve or int or perc. and would just maximize that one with an item and resting and didtn worry about the other checks but i get your point.

Edited October 10, 2017 by draego

[Wormerine]

I didn’t find stat checks pulinshing at all however I never played with unavailable options visible. I found the game gave me enough chances to use my main stats and skills. It is possible that there are even more demanding skill checks, which simply didn’t show up for me but I can’t say I find it an issue. I think it is cool if game has a range of skill checks (you need to be kinda smart to say this but you need to be really really brilliant for this situation). That way you can spread your stats and still have access to cool interactions but the game also rewards you if you invest very hard in one particular skill.

 

If you find a more useful item without increase to base stats than it is hardly necessary, right? If you want to increase duration of your abilities or their damage you boost intelligence or strength. If it is something you are not interested in for this character you don’t. Embrace your character’s flaws. You can’t get everything in one playthrough and that is good IMO.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Wormerine

[Lephys]

Just my 2 cents: The two (roleplaying choices and quality mathematical benefits) shouldn't really be mutually exclusive, in general. For example, if I pick all the equipment I want, but 10 other sets of equipment options would leave me with +3's across the board, that's probably not the best situation. On the other hand, if I had to really dig to find a set of equipment that would leave me with significantly increased stats and such, then sure. But, ideally, they should coincide. I should be able to pick things that I like that ALSO help me out mechanics-wise.

 

The simpler version of this that you see in many games is "I like weapon-type A, but ALL the other weapon types are far more useful than that one, measurably so." Or it could be a school of magic, etc. It comes down to viability. Inherently, a part of the game is intelligently outfitting your party so that they can take on challenges. Sometimes it's fun to under-outfit or specifically hinder your character for purely roleplaying reasons, but you shouldn't have to do so when it isn't deliberate.

 

Honestly, I don't think the +X Attribute equipment is the most effective thing for the goal it's trying to provide, in anything. Even in tabletop, it's broader than it needs to be and there are plenty of alternatives. You could give someone a helmet, for example, that grants them +5 to all melee damage, instead of +5 to Strength. Or, make it more interesting and unique. Your character already has Strength. So, granting Strength isn't really giving anything new. It's just adjusting the volume on an existing thing, so to speak. Granting some effect when you critically hit, or some unique aura really makes equipment stand out a lot more than just boosting stats.

 

If you really want to boost stats, just award Attribute points for certain things. Were you gonna put a Helm of +3 Intelligence in this cave? Instead, put something that permanently increases your Intelligence by 1 or something, and a Helm that provides some cool, unique effect.

 

The vast majority of characters wouldn't say "Pssh, I don't want to be stronger and smarter and have a greater constitution," so it's usually not the case that stat-bonus equipment serves to enhance role-playing choices. The better trade-offs would be the unique effects, like "do I want to use THIS helm that causes everyone around me to bleed, or do I want to use THIS helm that provides light in dark areas and makes me immune to Perception-altering effects and illusions?" That defines your character a lot more than "Do I wear this helm that makes all damage-dealing AND healing things I do more effective (+ Might), or do I wear this other helm that makes a couple of things different?"

 

I really think that most of the time, Attribute boosts are too broad and uncreative of an effect for equipment, and mostly unnecessary for equipment, specifically. The exception is when the Attribute system has individual points make a HUGE difference, and/or supports the idea of a point or two (that you can't get any other way) making a huge difference. For example, if a bunch of Wizard spells have effects based on "for every point of Intelligence past 14, do something spiffy," and there're one or two pieces of equipment in the entire game that grant +1 or MAYBE +2 Intelligence, then it's much more of a significant choice. Having the stat boost actually drastically changes your character. But if it's just "Meh... a few things increase by a percentage for each of those points," then it doesn't seem very in-line with the kind of options you should get from interesting equipment.