Flail's Fire Lash

[Boeroer]

So... did you try? 

[Moneo]

Nope, I haven't. Personally, I don't like approaches which require a lot of micro. I've only tried Firebrand a couple of times with my barb, but even this is too much fuss for my lazy butt))) Everything dies even without Firebrand, moreover, there are a bit more interesting gloves, like those of Accuracy or of Swift Action. So... perhaps, it's an interesting idea, but not for my playstyle... The thing I like the most about PoE-like games is powergaming, so I'm interested not only in sophisticated builds, but in designing power parties with strong innate synergies. It's not so obvious, but simplicity may be a strong approach too

Edited October 7, 2017 by Moneo

[Braven]

Ciphers are a great choice with light weapons, at least if they focus on disables. Mental binding is a huge deflection debuff, and the 1st level blinding and charm are not bad (-20 for stuck, -40 for paraylze, -20 blind, -25 charm). When I played cipher, I critical hit 100% of the time because of the massive paraylze debuff on enemies combined with the naturally high accuracy of rapiers and dahgers (daggers have +9 with free plot talent). For the MC, that is a +130% modifer after durgan, merciless hand, and dungeon delvers. Combined with the class specific talents and soulwhip and DR always favors light weapons, even enemies with the highest DR. Also, the speed is helpful tactically since you can get cipher powers out quicker (right before a nasty spell animation completes or a debuff ends because your current attack finishes faster).

 

Regarding dual weapon types, I don’t find it a problem with pierce weapons. The rapier with speed also has 3 dr bypass. Stilletos are also good for this reason too. Most of the time, the difference between DRs is around 5 or less. Sometimes there is no difference and you gain no benefit from dual damage. The DR bypass weapons always benefit. If there is a 5DR spread, it is only 2 DR worse. If the DRs are the same, it is 3 better. Over time it evens out to roughly the same advantages without weapon switching.

 

There are a couple extreme differences in DR, but they are few and far between. Pierce in particular has less issues I feel. Fire elementals are the only immune enemies and they are weak anyway, and there are no dangerous enemies with high pirece DR. I think that was on purpose because ranged characters rely so much on pierce since all guns and bows have that weapon type. Veteran players know where these enemies are and can switch weapons before the encounter. Because “noble” weapon focus has daggers, rapiers, and maces, you have all damage types covered.

 

For rogue, the main purpose of their full attacks is to trigger sneak attack, deathblow, and debuff enemies. Most only have a minor damage bonus which is relatively insignificant for rogue. In a trival battle, fast weapons let you unleash them out quicker for higher DPS and damage mitigation. In a drawn out encounter, fast weapons also win out because of auto attacking DPS. There is only a very thin band between those where large weapons are better.

 

Fighters also do full attacks for the disables; the damage bonus is very minor and charge has its own base damage. Most fighter attacks are auto-attacks. This is true for all characters if they focus on zero recovery. It is really only paladin that likes the big alpha strike and FoD monster lash benefits a lot from higher base damage.

 

I think the reason players like big weapons in general is because people naturally like to see big numbers; it is very psychologically satisfying. Also big weapons look a lot cooler.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Braven]

 

By the way, speaking of monks and fire lashes: did anybody ever tried Firebrand on a monk with Scion of Flame, Two Handed Style, Lightning Strikes and Turning Wheel? I reckon that the high lashes combined with the high base damage of 25 + Annihilation + Damaging III might be pretty awesome? Maybe add Battle Forged and Runner's Wounding Shot as well...

 

Sadly, I didn't...

A retailation monk would work well, with a “want to be hit” equipment setup. Torments reach is still good for the extra lash with the high base damage of firebrand or go with FoA for occassional disables; FoA is less micro since you just use it when in trouble. Otherwise you can auto attack and passively use wounds for the fire lash and DR reduction, which doesn’t require babysitting. It should out damage tidefall and not have the annoying wound interaction with intelligence.

 

The biggest issue with firebrand is no durgan no swift action gloves resulting in a slow attack speed in the late game. Great for act 2, though. Though just using fists is good for danage too in act 2 and doesn’t require a glove slot, extra talents, and is not limited to 3 uses per rest.

 

Dual weapon and vulnerable attack with fists will be better against low DR targets. So firebrand’s purpose is high DR.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Yes, I thought of early to mid game. 

 

 

 

I think the reason players like big weapons in general is because people naturally like to see big numbers; it is very psychologically satisfying. Also big weapons look a lot cooler. 

 

I also think that the experiences in the early game (where light weapons underperform) don't help. An example is the barb who can't deal damage at the beginning when he uses light weapons. The damage malus of carnage (-36%), paired with the very low ACC always leads to whimpy MIN damage if you hit at all.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Yep, the early game is where big weapons shine for all classes. Ironically, the good big weapons are available late when they are less effective while the good small weapons are available early.

 

The redeeming factor for small weapons early is that vulnerable attack is most effective early (or super late if it effectively had no penalty). This is because DR is more harmful with less damage multipliers. Also speed enchanted small weapons are available much sooner than the hammer and axe and synergizes great with vulnerable attack. Only small weapons have the accuracy increases which are particularly helpful early. With those advantages, small weapons I think still outperform larger ones most of the time in ACT 2 and the advantages continue increasing into the late game. (Paladin and gun alpha strikes, aside)

 

By the way, barbarian with vulnerable attack at level 4 is really powerful. The higher accuracy of light weapons combined with DR bypass of vulnerable attack make carnage much more effective (and possible speed enchant to offset vulnerable attack and even more DR bypass). The damage penatly is also less impactful on light weapons because of the lower base damage. You just need bypass to get rid of DR. Heart of Fury is not available yet so you are just auto-attacking so that is not a factor.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Try barb with Novice's Suffering in the early game.

[Braven]

Novice suffering at level 2 and vulnerable at level 4. That would be very nice!

 

I also like going with just a single one-handed weapon in Act 1. +12 is a huge boon and better hit quality results in higher damage multiplier which helps light weapons more so. With vulnerable attack, that 3-7 early DR breakpoint is pretty easy to reach.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Dr <3]

Just to be clear: someone is claiming that bittercut/hammers or tidefall/Blade of endless path are not the best dps weapon anymore?

Apart from drawn in spring, what is the best (more dps) fast weapon in your opinion?

[Braven]

Best weapon for DPS varies based on DR, attack speed, and total damage multipliers. Many people assume large damage multipliers favor big weapons over small ones, but the opposite is true because in those cases attack speed is more important.

 

Exception is the paladin FoD monsterlash and barbarian heart of fury, if it hits many enemies. That still favors big weapons, but only because you only get two of them per battle and has a ton of lashes (paladin) or several instant attacks (barbarian). The advantage of small weapons is small enough that it would take many follow up auto attacks to make up the lower initial damage burst.

 

If you are okay with slamming down potions that give you +50% attack speed every encounter and wearing a robe, two handers like Tidefall will always be best. If you auto attack without consumables, small weapons are best (generally) in the late game for characters with a lot of damage multipliers; particularly ciphers and rogues. Other classes with low might or few class-based multipliers are better off with large one handers or two-handers (if facing mid-high DR enemies)

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Also, stuff like Frenzy + Bloodlust + Blood Thirst favors Two Handers (HoF aside which favors heavy one handers in dual wielding mode).

 

And then of course special enchantments (that are on two handers or heavy one handers) that you can get early are important to. Tidefall is superb and wounding, Hours of St. Rumbalt is annihilating and overbearing (great combo) and comes with ACC III, Tall Grass is predatory and overbearing (also great combo), Llawran's Stick has speed, Durance's Staff comes with a lash and has two damage types. Those are good reasons to settle for a two hander. Same with the Wizard's melee weapons. Then Shatterstar has double Interrupt value, is annihilating and guarding (good combo for fighter), Resolution is annihilating and reliable, Cladhaliath can be made into the perfect weapon for your needs and so on. Compared to that the most light weapons you can get early are a bit meh when it comes to interesting enchantments (besides Sword of Daenysis, March Steel Dagger and Unforgiven - which all have speed).

[Braven]

Regarding bittercut vs speed rapiers. The rapier has -3 DR, +5 accuracy, and speed. Without a potion, speed enchant and dual weapons is the only way to get vulnerable attack with no speed penatly late game without consumables and if you used consumables tidefall is better anyway making this comparison moot. In fact, you can take vulnerable attack and still have more speed than bittercut without vulnerable attack because the speed bonus is applied multicatively and vulnerable attack is a simple additive penalty. This allows you to also wear heavier armor, compared to a bittercut dual wield.

 

Bittercut has +40% additive damage bonus (with talent) and two damage types (variable DR bypass). I think the -8 guaranteed DR-bypass and 5 accuracy is roughly as good as bittercut’s enchants, but it will vary from fight to fight. Sure, the -8 bypass might be overkill sometimes for very low DR enemies, but those are the ones that benefit the most from small weapons on the damage charts so small still has an advantage. Bittercut also has a couple per rest abilities, but It also has a -20 penalty to poison and sickness attacks. A lot of attacks check against this, including the annoying paraylzing dart throwers in the white march.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Dr <3]

Is just that i have never seen a rogue/chiper build actually using fast weapon ( apart the already mentioned drawn in spring). I always thought that was only because fast weapon dmg is much easily blocked by dr, but now i see that is not necessarely the case.

On the other side as far as my memory serves me i have to say that there is a severe lack of "good" enchantment on fast weapons, since apart from speed in the weapons mentioned by Boeroer, nothing has stunning/overbearing, maybe something have annilathe but i don't remember.

So imho the thing is more

"the good unique are mostly in slow 1h than in the fast 1h"

then

" Fast 1h underperform by themself vs slow 1h"

[Braven]

For ciphers, the argument can be made that lower dps, but more consistent DPS, is better since less focus is much better than no focus. The dual damage type large one hander, or two handed weapon is better for consistency. Particularly is you are a newer player who doesn’t know where high DR enemies are to know when to switch weapons.

 

I have no idea why non-backstab rogues don’t use light weapons. They should. Though Tidefall is also very good for a rogue. I think actually better because the endurance drain is great for a squishy rogue and massive because of their high damage. They can also get away with low/dumped int which is good with wounding.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Dr <3]

Anyway i'm in the middle of a chiper run. Up to now it is shield + bittercut, bit now i'm tempted to try dw spelltongue + sword of daeneys. The only thing that concerns me is the major loss of deflection and reflexes, since is a solo run it can be a problem.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Yep, the early game is where big weapons shine for all classes. Ironically, the good big weapons are available late when they are less effective while the good small weapons are available early.

 

The redeeming factor for small weapons early is that vulnerable attack is most effective early (or super late if it effectively had no penalty). This is because DR is more harmful with less damage multipliers. Also speed enchanted small weapons are available much sooner than the hammer and axe and synergizes great with vulnerable attack. Only small weapons have the accuracy increases which are particularly helpful early. With those advantages, small weapons I think still outperform larger ones most of the time in ACT 2 and the advantages continue increasing into the late game. (Paladin and gun alpha strikes, aside)

 

By the way, barbarian with vulnerable attack at level 4 is really powerful. The higher accuracy of light weapons combined with DR bypass of vulnerable attack make carnage much more effective (and possible speed enchant to offset vulnerable attack and even more DR bypass). The damage penatly is also less impactful on light weapons because of the lower base damage. You just need bypass to get rid of DR. Heart of Fury is not available yet so you are just auto-attacking so that is not a factor.

I think several really nice big weapons are available early:

 

Tidefall, Hours of St. Rumbalt, Tallgrass, Temperecal(...yes I probably misspelled it...), Spectacular Spetum, Firebrand...

[Boeroer]

THE Temaperacl please!

 

Always misspelled, often overlooked, seldomly picked.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

After a fast research : apart from starcaller, unforgiven, spelltongue, sword of daeneys, drawn in spring there is not much...

 

In particular clubs and stilettos are very underwhelming categories.

Daggers have only drawn in spring worth to mention.

[Braven]

Shields are good soloing. You can reach zero recovery with sword of daeneyes and a shield. With gloves of swift action, durgan steel, and outlanders frenzy you can wear up to leather. When it expires, you are still pretty fast or there is always time parasite. Should have focus by then.

 

The advantage of duel weapons is the ability to get vulnerable attack without speed loss and not rely on abilities like frenzy. +5 damage is not worth the loss of deflection/reflex for a fragile cipher, in my opinion. Your modifiers are so high that in the late game you do not need DR-bypass to still make a fast small weapon out-DPS (and the rapier comes with 3 bypass anyway) and not taking it saves a talent.

 

Another option is to open with a big gun shot, switch to shield, cast time paradite. That is +50% speed so you can even wear plate armor or use vulnerable attack with zero recovery.

 

That said, in my cipher run, I preferred my focus for boosting defenses and Crown control. Parasite is focus-expensive and has a short duration.

 

I like the march steel dagger; don’t forget that! It is simple to get and available early. Remember, daggers have an extra +4 accuracy from the white march perk, is a different damage type, and can eventually be upgraded to legendary and still have a lash as well as the speed enchant.. Also, rapiers and daggers share noble weapon focus.

 

Otherwise, maybe I would consifer the flail. But then you are stuck with just crush damage or you give up weapon focus’s accuracy.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Time Parasite jumps from enemy to enemy and thus can have a very long duration. The duration that's listed is only for one enemy.

 

6 enemies * 12 sec base = 72 seconds with 10 INT. 108 secs with 20 INT.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Braven]

 

Yep, the early game is where big weapons shine for all classes. Ironically, the good big weapons are available late when they are less effective while the good small weapons are available early.

 

The redeeming factor for small weapons early is that vulnerable attack is most effective early (or super late if it effectively had no penalty). This is because DR is more harmful with less damage multipliers. Also speed enchanted small weapons are available much sooner than the hammer and axe and synergizes great with vulnerable attack. Only small weapons have the accuracy increases which are particularly helpful early. With those advantages, small weapons I think still outperform larger ones most of the time in ACT 2 and the advantages continue increasing into the late game. (Paladin and gun alpha strikes, aside)

 

By the way, barbarian with vulnerable attack at level 4 is really powerful. The higher accuracy of light weapons combined with DR bypass of vulnerable attack make carnage much more effective (and possible speed enchant to offset vulnerable attack and even more DR bypass). The damage penatly is also less impactful on light weapons because of the lower base damage. You just need bypass to get rid of DR. Heart of Fury is not available yet so you are just auto-attacking so that is not a factor.

I think several really nice big weapons are available early:

 

Tidefall, Hours of St. Rumbalt, Tallgrass, Temperecal(...yes I probably misspelled it...), Spectacular Spetum, Firebrand...

I meant, large one-handers by “big weapons”. My original comparison was between faster and slower one-handers. Two-handers are a different comparison, but similiar in that high damage multipliers and low enemy DR favor duel-wielding. Low damage multipliers and High DR favor two-handed.

 

On-Crit effects are worse early game because your accuracy is not high enough to critical hit at a high rate (though enemies are also weaker, so maybe good still). Two-handers are generally good early-mid game because everyone has low damage multipliers. The best part is they require no extra talents to be good. Talents are few early game.

 

For large one-handed, I like shatterstar which can be bought at start of Act 2. Good early and interrupting is less reliant on super high accuracy. Other than that... not really any I can think of. Oh, there is also the vile loner spear which is nice.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Braven]

Time Parasite jumps from enemy to enemy and thus can have a very long duration. The duration that's listed is only for one enemy.

 

6 enemies * 12 sec base = 72 seconds with 10 INT. 108 secs with 20 INT.

Oh wow, guess it is good. Slows enemies too. Shield cipher sounds good. No real downsides at all.

 

By the way, I discovered a really neat trick with cipher. You can actually cast that vampiric shield power outside of combat by targeting yourself. It will drain your resolve and give you +25 deflection over a long duration. Outside of combat, the focus immediately replenishes, so it costs nothing so you can use all of your initial powers casting charms or mental binding instead at the start of battle. The resolve loss sounds bad, but if you dumped resolve and only have 3, you only lose 2 resolve since you can’t go below 1 in any stat. Basically you get 23 net deflection for free. This is really great for a shielded, defensive cipher. They don’t really need concentration anyways if enemies mostly graze and the rest disabled with your crowd control spells.

 

Also, you can keep casting vampiric shield until you crit yourself for maximum duration.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Braven

[Blades of Vanatar]

THE Temaperacl please!

 

Always misspelled, often overlooked, seldomly picked.

It's a sentimental weapon... I gave it to Eder in my very first play through in the early game. He became my instant super man for the party. I was centering all my buffs on him. With prone it's good enough to be an endgame item. Anyone who says different is going to get a visit from Eder and get beat like there a red headed Orlan.. Edited October 8, 2017 by Blades of Vanatar

[mosspit]

 

Time Parasite jumps from enemy to enemy and thus can have a very long duration. The duration that's listed is only for one enemy.

 

6 enemies * 12 sec base = 72 seconds with 10 INT. 108 secs with 20 INT.

Oh wow, guess it is good. Slows enemies too. Shield cipher sounds good. No real downsides at all.

 

By the way, I discovered a really neat trick with cipher. You can actually cast that vampiric shield power outside of combat by targeting yourself. It will drain your resolve and give you +25 deflection over a long duration. Outside of combat, the focus immediately replenishes, so it costs nothing so you can use all of your initial powers casting charms or mental binding instead at the start of battle. The resolve loss sounds bad, but if you dumped resolve and only have 3, you only lose 2 resolve since you can’t go below 1 in any stat. Basically you get 23 net deflection for free. This is really great for a shielded, defensive cipher. They don’t really need concentration anyways if enemies mostly graze and the rest disabled with your crowd control spells.

 

Also, you can keep casting vampiric shield until you crit yourself for maximum duration.

 

I think there is a recommendation by a poster where you cast this on a min Res teammate (usually 3 Res). That char will be down to 1 Res, but the Cipher still gets the full defensive effects. So trading 2 Res for 25 deflection. And yes, can be done out of battle.

Edited October 8, 2017 by mosspit

[Dr <3]

Yes was already said, but sometime is useful to poit again this stuff, because is not evident. I nice trick for solo indeed