Bittercut doubt

[Boeroer]

This is only true without any speed bonuses. If you reach near 0 recovery a two hander will always be better because the dual wielding setup has no speed advantage any more. If you can reach 0 recovery even with Vulnerable Attack then the dual wielding setup can gain another advantage again. So it depends.

 

If you are using a lot of Full Attacks then dual wielding is a no brainer over two handers indeed. For example I really like dual wielding on fighters with 3 Knockdown uses just because of the double chance per use to cause prone. 

 

 

@Kaylon: true, Tidefall is way better at higher levels and with high MIG - even Rumbalt does more DPS compared to Firebrand with all enchantments. But nothing beats Firebrand from early to mid game.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[Stargazer55]

How does using a single one handed weapon play into this? Is it inferior to both two-handed and dual-wielding or on par with them?

[Boeroer]

It depends what you want to do. It's as slow as a two hander (if you use the larger one handed weapons like sabre, sword and so on) but has less damage. The +12 ACC are great in the early game and the one handed style (hit-to-crit conversion) is great if you plan to use a weapon with on crit effect like Cladhaliath. Especially for barbs with their lower base ACC this can be a good approach since their carnage also starts with a malus to ACC which gets reduced (so to speak) with each level. That's when you focus on AoE stunning or prone with a barb.

 

Another class which can make great use of wielding a single one handed weapon is the chanter. Several chants and also invocations (not all of them!) get the +12 ACC. This is the only class that has this "feature". However, the one handed style talent bonus (hit to crit conversion) doesn't apply to chants and invocations, only weapon hits.

 

In terms of DPS I'd say it is inferior to dual wielding and two handers after the early game.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

This is only true without any speed bonuses. If you reach near 0 recovery a two hander will always be better because the dual wielding setup has no speed advantage any more. If you can reach 0 recovery even with Vulnerable Attack then the dual wielding setup can gain another advantage again. So it depends.

 

If you are using a lot of Full Attacks then dual wielding is a no brainer two handers indeed. For example I really like dual wielding on fighters with 3 Knockdown uses just because of the double chance per use to cause prone. 

 

 

@Kaylon: true, Tidefall is way better at higher levels and with high MIG - even Rumbalt does more DPS compared to Firebrand with all enchantments. But nothing beats Firebrand from early to mid game.

your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding?????

 

no way.......how is this possible

[Boeroer]

With math...

[Livegood118]

 

This is only true without any speed bonuses. If you reach near 0 recovery a two hander will always be better because the dual wielding setup has no speed advantage any more. If you can reach 0 recovery even with Vulnerable Attack then the dual wielding setup can gain another advantage again. So it depends.

 

If you are using a lot of Full Attacks then dual wielding is a no brainer two handers indeed. For example I really like dual wielding on fighters with 3 Knockdown uses just because of the double chance per use to cause prone. 

 

 

@Kaylon: true, Tidefall is way better at higher levels and with high MIG - even Rumbalt does more DPS compared to Firebrand with all enchantments. But nothing beats Firebrand from early to mid game.

your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding?????

 

no way.......how is this possible

 

 

 

The more recovery you can stack, the more it evens out between the two attacking styles. With 0 or small recovery a 2H will attack just as fast as dual wielding and hit much harder.

 

You'll be at 0 recovery in either instance when your recovery mod is greater than 0.5.

 

For example, Blade of Endless paths + Gauntlets of Swift Action + Durgan Steel + Swift Strikes = (1.2*1.15*1.15*1.25 -1) = 0.98 -.5 (no DW penalty) = .48 

 

If you add 15% armour penalty (or are wearing a durganised -30% recovery armour) you'll reduce your recovery frames by two thirds after dex is taken in to account.

 

Of course, access to lots of full attacks can change things in DW's favour.

 

As Boeroer mentioned, I'd highly recommend reading MaxQuest's thread on attack speed. He has assumed Loren Tyr's mantle as the forum's game mechanics guru.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Livegood118

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

This is only true without any speed bonuses. If you reach near 0 recovery a two hander will always be better because the dual wielding setup has no speed advantage any more. If you can reach 0 recovery even with Vulnerable Attack then the dual wielding setup can gain another advantage again. So it depends.

 

If you are using a lot of Full Attacks then dual wielding is a no brainer two handers indeed. For example I really like dual wielding on fighters with 3 Knockdown uses just because of the double chance per use to cause prone.

 

 

@Kaylon: true, Tidefall is way better at higher levels and with high MIG - even Rumbalt does more DPS compared to Firebrand with all enchantments. But nothing beats Firebrand from early to mid game.

your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding?????

 

no way.......how is this possible

Dual wielding isn't necessarily two attacks to a twohanders one attack. You are taking the terms too literally. Attack speed Closes the gap on attacks made with the. Varying weapon setups.

 

Just test it. Console level 1 characters with the same stats and abilities and attack a naked Eder. Then do the same with lvl 16 guys. Chart the results. Like Boeroer said... it's in the math.

[Kaylon]

I did a little test with Tidefall - with 20dex (not sure where is the break point), Gauntlets of Swift Action, durgan enchantment and DAoM you have no recovery (without armor of course) - which means you can attack just as fast as a dual wielder.

[Boeroer]

Dex doesn't matter when recovery is reduced to 0 by attack speed buffs - so there's no break point in your example (or I misunderstood). You can reach nearly 0 recovery with 1 DEX and the same stuff you listed (there's a tiny fraction of recovery left if I'm not mistaken - but it's so tiny you can't see it).

 

But your attack animation will be a lot slower with 1 DEX of course.

 

A fighter with armored grace could now wear a durganized scale armor and still have ~0 recovery.

 

Same fighter with dual weapons & Two Weapon Style and the same stuff could wear durganized plate and could skip the potion and turn on Vulnerable Attack instead, meaning +5 flat damage per strike (that doesn't scale with anything) against most enemies. He would be as fast as the two hander guy.

 

Somebody would need to do some serious excel-magic to find out which is better overall with standard weapons.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

The break points appear because of rounding and because the game is limited to 30 frames. A 2h without speed enchantment can't reach 0% recovery in theory because what I listed puts you at 1.6% recovery.

 

In practice however things happen differently... The base recovery for a 2h weapon is 1.66s and 1.6% of it means 0.027s, while a frame represents 0.033s. With 3dex the recovery will become .027/.79=0.034s>0.033s and since the recovery takes more than 1 frame it will always be displayed. If you add more dexterity and depending on how the game rounds the numbers the game skips that frame - from what I observed 20dex is enough to skip that last frame, while 10dex isn't enough for example. The break point (when the last frame is skipped) is somewhere between 10 and 20...

 

Obviously 2 weapons allows wearing heavy armor, but I was talking about pure dps (and in some situations, like under Defensive Mindweb or strong CC, armor doesn't matter anymore).

 

The average damage difference between 1h and 2h (with 0% bonus damage) is 3.5+2.5 from Two-Handed Style. If both attack with the same speed it's clear that 2h>1h+Vulnerable Attack and the difference will increase when you add more damage bonuses and it's amplified even more by the lash.

 

If you take dual Bittercuts (40% dmg bonus ie 5.4 more dmg than regular weapons) + Vulnerable Attack even a regular 2h weapon will out dps them once you have over 100% dmg bonus (before the saber nerf things were different of course). With the Blade of Endless Paths you can also take Vulnerable Attack (for a total of 10DR penetration) while keeping 0% recovery, while Tidefall with +10-15raw dmg is above anything else.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Ah, ok. Now I understand which break point you meant.

[firkraag888]

I did a little test with Tidefall - with 20dex (not sure where is the break point), Gauntlets of Swift Action, durgan enchantment and DAoM you have no recovery (without armor of course) - which means you can attack just as fast as a dual wielder.

Yeah I thought people on this thread where getting it wrong thankyou so much for clearing it up.

 

So if you have 20 dex , no armor and drink a haste potion you can attack as fast as a dual weilder...................................

[Boeroer]

We are certainly not getting it wrong.

 

A potion of Alacrity or Frenzy + Gautlets (~50% speed bonus) are enough to attack as fast as a dual wielder (who sort of has the same speed bonus without doing anything but wearing two weapons). 

 

But that's not what Kaylon meant I guess. He was explaining that you can attack with 0 recovery if you do the things he listed. Once you reach 0 recovery it doesn't matter if you dual wield or use a two hander. 0 recovery is 0 recovery and you can't get faster than that. The 20 DEX was only mentioned because with it you can skip one frame(!) that would otherwise be displayed.

 

So - attack speed of two handers and dual wielding will be the same once you reach 0 recovery - but damage per hit will be higher with the two hander. That will result in higher dps obviously: same speed + higher damage per hit = higher dps.

 

By the way the two hander user can of course wear armor and still reach 0 recovery. Either he's wearing a durganized robe (=0% penalty) or he's a fighter and wears durganized scale combined with Armored Grace as I already said. 

 

A dual wielder will not per se attack with 0 recovery. BUT it's a lot easier for him to reach 0 recovery. Dual wielding alone will not get him there. He would also need to drink a potion of Alacrity and have no armor penatly - but then he could skip Gauntlets of Swift Action and durgan steel. OR he could use those things and wear heavy armor and/or use Vulnerable Attack for a bit more sturdyness and dps (doesn't reach two hander's dps, but comes close) and still have 0 recovery. This is an advantage of course - but so much for your as for survivability. 

 

So, in terms of auto-attack dps (not looking at armor and whatnot) a two hander can be better than dual wielding in the late game - but it's more fuzz to get there.

 

Once you have a lot (or even unlimited) Full Attacks dual wielding is generally better. A good exampe is the monk with Torment's Reach where dual wielding is a lot better than a two hander.

 

Counterexample could be a barbarian because the +33% damage malus of carnage, paired with high DR of enemies, can lead to a lot of MIN damage where a two hander like an estoc would punch through easily.

[firkraag888]

He couldn't have said it more plainly. He is the guru on this forum for mathematics and speed is he not??? or is that Maxquest??

 

He clearly said this:

 

"I did a little test with Tidefall - with 20dex (not sure where is the break point), Gauntlets of Swift Action, durgan enchantment and DAoM you have no recovery (without armor of course) - which means you can attack just as fast as a dual wielder."

 

A haste potion absolutely cannot be used to compare to dual wielding with a 1 hander.

 

You would have to compare that to a dual weilder using a haste potion aswell if that is the case

Edited April 3, 2017 by firkraag888

[Boeroer]

 

your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding?????

 

no way.......how is this possible

Your question: "how is that possible"?

 

The answer is: 

 

 

 

with 20dex (not sure where is the break point), Gauntlets of Swift Action, durgan enchantment and DAoM you have no recovery (without armor of course) - which means you can attack just as fast as a dual wielder.

That's the answer. If you attack as fast as a dual wielder (meaning you strike as often in a given timespan) you will have "out dpsed" a dual wielder bwecause your damage er hit will be higher. So there is a way - and it's not that quirky or weird.

 

Quite simple. I don't see the need for shadowboxing. I'm not in favor of two handers or dual wielding. Both have their pros and cons. Simply saying "X is better than Y" or "Hours of St. Rumbalt is not suitable for a rogue" doesn't work in this game and you can see why. There are too many ifs (build, enemy's DR, actual attack speed, buffs, damage types, unique enchantments, party composition and so on). 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

 

 

^{your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding?????}

 

^{no way.......how is this possible}

^{Your question: "how is that possible"?}

 

^{The answer is:} 

 

 

 

^{with 20dex (not sure where is the break point), Gauntlets of Swift Action, durgan enchantment and DAoM you have no recovery (without armor of course) - which means you can attack just as fast as a dual wielder.}

^{That's the answer. If you attack as fast as a dual wielder (meaning you strike as often in a given timespan) you will have "out dpsed" a dual wielder bwecause your damage er hit will be higher. So there is a way - and it's not that quirky or weird.}

 

^{Quite simple. I don't see the need for shadowboxing. I'm not in favor of two handers or dual wielding. Both have their pros and cons. Simply saying "X is better than Y" or "Hours of St. Rumbalt is not suitable for a rogue" doesn't work in this game and you can see why. There are too many ifs (build, enemy's DR, actual attack speed, buffs, damage types, unique enchantments, party composition and so on).} 

 

 

^{cmon !!!! obvisouly using a haste potion makes things a little bit different!!!!!!}

 

^{If you have knowledge about this game it is great that you share it but you shouldn't make it personal and mislead for the sake of winning an argument.}

Edited April 3, 2017 by firkraag888

[Boeroer]

I don't make it personal and I don't mislead. In fact I'm trying to stay focused and not to beat around the bush. I'm also trying to avoid sarcastic comments.

 

You should read my posts again. You will see that I don't make any insulting or misleading comments nor do I attack you personally. And I don't shout either.

 

You are not limited to potions. A barbarian with Frenzy and Bloodlust (and maybe also Blood Thirst) could achieve 0 recovery without potions for example: being as fast with a two hander as with dual weapons. So it's possible (and not too difficult in the late game) to out dps dual wielding with a two hander. That was your question and it got answered. I'm not trying to win anything, I'm just rying to answer your question and to show you that there is no simple answer.

 

What I also said is that it' way easier to achieve 0 recovery (earlier) with dual wielding and pointing out other advantages of dual wielding - supporting parts of your position as well.

 

I'm sorry that you can't see that I'm trying to be neutral here. But your initial statement was very strong: "not suitable/no way/how is it possible". Several users, including me, showed that it can be suitable and also is possible. Maybe for you and your playstyle it is not the case, but that doesn't mean that two handers are not viable or can't compete.

 

No need to get huffy I'd say. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

clearly if you take into consideration factors like frenzy, potions or whatever other buffs you can think off you would have to apply that to the dual wielder aswell.

 

No need to make up big long multiple paragraphs ethier that are nothing to do with it.

 

Kaylon kept it Perfectly accurate, short, sweet and very easy to understand in one simple short sentence.

[Boeroer]

Please understand this: you can't get faster than 0 recovery.

 

You may want to be all fair and also give the dual wielder those buffs like Frenzy and so on. You can add Frenzy + other speed buffs to a dual wielder, sure - but it's of no use at some point because he can't get any faster than O recovery while the two hander catches up to that. And once (quite late in the game) he did that he does always more dps - Full Attacks aside. That's the whole point that I and others (including Kaylon I guess) are trying to make. Before that the dual weapon setup does more damage against low to mid DR foes, that's right.

 

Kaylon didn't write in favor of any position - he posted a test result - showing how a two hander can be as fast as a dual wielding setup (and thus doing more dps). That undergirds what I was saying.

 

I have the feeling that I have to elaborate a lot because you don't get what I mean. In fact it is quite simple but your comments are not very helpful.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

I get exactly what you mean haven't you noticed that.

 

Kaylon tested and proved that you can reach zero recovery with a greatsword by having no armor, using a haste potion, speed gauntlets and having 20 Dex.

 

Now if my dual weilder also had no armor used a haste potion, speed gauntlets and 20 Dex then that would be apples for apples.

 

Not apples and oranges .

[firkraag888]

@kaylon

 

what is the minimum requirements you can reach zero recovery with a greatsword vs dual sabres WITHOUT haste potions, frenzys, buffs ect.......

 

Only equipment

 

really appreciate your help thanks

[Boeroer]

I get exactly what you mean haven't you noticed that.

 

Kaylon tested and proved that you can reach zero recovery with a greatsword by having no armor, using a haste potion, speed gauntlets and having 20 Dex.

 

Now if my dual weilder also had no armor used a haste potion, speed gauntlets and 20 Dex then that would be apples for apples.

 

Not apples and oranges .

Yeah good no problem. The dual wielder gets those buffs, too, if you want - even if he doesn't need them to reach 0 recovery. Why not. Now we have apples for apples...

 

So now step by step - and we're only looking at dps:

 

- Once the two hander guy (with all the stats, buffs and items) attacks as fast as a dual wielder with the same buffs and items - he does more dps. Do you agree?

 

- You can't be faster than 0 recovery - even if you have more attack speed bonus than you need. So when a two hander reaches 0 recovery he will be as fast as a dual wielder. Do you agree?

[Livegood118]

Dude, as a rule, it's not good form to get snarky with people who are taking personal time out to try and help you to understand the game.

 

Here's an example of an easily achievable close to 0 recovery fighter build without consumables:

 

(1.33 (Sanguine Plate Frenzy) * 1.2 (Blade of the Endless Paths Speed Enchant) * 1.15 (Durgan Weapon) * 1.15 (Gloves of Swift Action) + .2 (Armoured Grace) + .15 (Durgan Armour)) - 1 = 1.46 - .5 (Full Plate) -.5 (No dual wield bonus) = 0.46 * 2 = 0.92

 

This means recovery is reduced first by diving by 1.2 (this happens with all characters) and then reducing it again by 92%, making it almost completely neglible and the character is wearing the heaviest armour possible in the game and it's a circumstance that can happen in pretty much every single fight in the game without consumables. With decent int you'll get around 30 secs of Frenzy and so can attack like this for that length of time, more if you want to take outlanders frenzy.

 

A character dual wielding with 0 recovery would attack at nearly the exact same speed e.g. hit with weapon 1, recovery, 5 frame break, hit with weapon 2, recovery, 5 frame break, but for much smaller damage each hit (base damage 1 handed weapons = 11 – 16, base damage 2 handed weapons = 14 – 20 but fighter can get it to 17 – 20 with confident aim). 

 

Depending on this character's dexerity, the character's actual attack time and recovery will be reduced even further.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Yes, thanks.

 

But to be fair: this is a late game setup as I already mentioned.

 

Dual wielders have a much easier time to reach 0. Not that they have to - just in order to increase DPS to the max.

 

Now away from pure dps and towards overall power and usefulness: Two handers get the more powerful uniques early in the game while dual wielding gets you to high attack speed really quickly. Maybe that's why they placed the good two handers in those areas where you can get them early, who knows?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

Yes, thanks.

 

But to be fair: this is a late game setup as I already mentioned.

 

Dual wielders have a much easier time to reach 0. Not that they have to - just in order to increase DPS to the max.

 

Now away from pure dps and towards overall power and usefulness: Two handers get the more powerful uniques early in the game while dual wielding gets you to high attack speed really quickly. Maybe that's why they placed the good two handers in those areas where you can get them early, who knows?

 

 

Not sure whether it's clear or not, but my post above wasn't aimed at you.

 

I agree with you.

 

I think the value of "status effect on crit" weapons is relative to the amount of CC you already have at your disposal based on party composition. If you've got one wizard, cipher, druid or dedicated CC chanter in your party then yes, you'll probably get good mileage out of them, but if you've got two I'd argue they have much less value. What use is prone on crit when you can spam amplified wave every 6-8 seconds, shadowflame, storm spells, AoE paralyse etc ...?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Livegood118