That's one ugly boat

[PrimeJunta]

am thinking we are talking past each other.  for example, canons on deck means even less room for party maneuver, and giving space to make party formation and maneuverability viable is exact why the current deck has so much wasted space and is so wide from bow to stern.  your changes is working 'gainst gameplay concessions. 

 

you are worried 'bout aesthetics.

 

Gromnir suggests aesthetics must be sacrificed for gameplay.

 

you add suggestions which further limit party mobility, so am not seeing a meeting o' minds being possible.

 

So keep the cannons belowdecks. That would work too. What are your remaining objections to my suggestions? They would give more deck space, not less.

 

My point: the boat is ugly for no good gameplay reason. If you're of the opinion that aesthetics don't matter in a game like Pillars, then fine, you're entirely entitled to that opinion, but I do not share it. Nor, I believe, do the people who are working so hard to make it look so good.

[Madscientist]

I would keep the cannons below deck.

reason: If you keep them on deck you need to animate characters who use them correctly. It feels strange when those cannons fire on their own.

And the powder would get wet when it rains.

[illathid]

Yeah, the Defiant is a bit ugly. I'm hoping with the additional ship types goal we'll get something a bit nicer looking... like maybe a frigate?

[Madscientist]

Yeah, the Defiant is a bit ugly. I'm hoping with the additional ship types goal we'll get something a bit nicer looking... like maybe a frigate?

 

Given the setting, I would prefer something more exotic like a junk or a polynesian catamaran. Mayby an arabien ship like a dhow.

[Gromnir]

your complaint is bricklink, but any attempt to significant narrow fore or aft is gonna necessarily pinch the gameplay space.  to keep same current gameplay space one needs either keep relative uniform beam 'tween the perpendiculars, making her look tubby, or you need increase overall length. 

 

*shrug*

 

current got a basketball court deck, and a relative unobtrusive sail plan.  want teardrop or sleek or cannons on decks and space is gonna be problematic 'less one makes a larger ship. and more sails and rigging is gonna necessarily be more obtrusive.  let out boom and your mainsail sudden obscures deck 'fore the mast.

 

obsidian can do better with the boat, but she is gonna be tubby and have simple sails, 'less they is transparent o'er the decking. make transparent and kinda defeats the point o' more and fuller, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Gromnir

[PrimeJunta]

The thing that blocks sight most would be the sails.

In combat between ships, did they fight with full sails or did they minimize them? (sorry, I do not know the right terms).

If it makes any sense to fight without sails, almost every type of ship could be used as long as the deck is large enough for 5 chars + pets/summons + 10 human sized enemies and their pets. I think a ship like a sloop would be good. If you have a large ship (and the characters have the right proportions compared to the ship), you would need 50 people fighting on each side to have an epic battle. Otherwise the ship would feel quite empty.

 

The sails would have to be trimmed so you'll see them edge-on; that way they wouldn't obstruct the deck much (and you could treat them like trees or any other similar element on any other map). 

 

Ships sailed at full sail when giving chase (or running), but trimmed to battle sails when engaging. They had a special kind of shot -- chain shot -- designed to shred sails. Getting hit with that when at full sail was very bad news. If you managed to take out the other guy's sails before he did the same to you, you had as good as won the battle: you could manoeuvre for a stern or prow rake (your broadside facing his prow or or stern, where he could barely bring any cannons to bear, and also your shot would bounce along the deck doing carnage), then when you've got them good and bloody, close in for a boarding action. (Or, if it turned out you were facing a much superior force after all, you could just run -- after all, you could sail and he couldn't.)

 

In the "golden age of piracy" ship to ship engagements rarely went that way though. Pirates would fight to capture, not to kill, and engagements were often lopsided. You would have a fast, small pirate ship (sloop, schooner or similar) full of armed-to-the-teeth cutthroats facing off against a bigger, slower, lightly-armed, lightly-crewed merchantman; in this case the merchant would try to run, and if that failed, surrender. Also many pirate captains would be lenient with crews and captains who surrendered, and extremely brutal with ones who didn't, which gave them a reputation that encouraged merchantmen to do that. Not much artillery there.

 

If a pirate crew mistook a navy vessel for a merchantman – which sometimes happened as navy pirate-hunters would camouflage themselves as that – things would get bloody as the navy vessels were generally much better-armed; the navy vessel would try to get in as close as possible before they figured it out, then shoot out the pirate's sails and then fight to kill. There were a few famous engagements where navy vessels chased the pirates up an estuary where they couldn't run, in which case things would get ugly fast; Blackbeard for example was eventually caught this way.

 

The other situation which would lead to impressive engagements was when a pirate captain decided to go after an armed convoy under naval escort, e.g. the Spanish ships transporting bullion from South America to Spain. This happened a few times, and sometimes the pirates even won.

Edited February 24, 2017 by PrimeJunta

[illathid]

 

Yeah, the Defiant is a bit ugly. I'm hoping with the additional ship types goal we'll get something a bit nicer looking... like maybe a frigate?

 

Given the setting, I would prefer something more exotic like a junk or a polynesian catamaran. Mayby an arabien ship like a dhow.

 

 

Bah, the ships of savages. I want to go full sneering imperialist on the Deadfire.

[Varana]

The Chinese and Arabs could be imperialist, as well. :D

 

AFAIK, the standard ship is supposed to be built in the Dyrwood (Defiance Bay, probably), so it'll be European in style. As we've hit the stretch goal with the additional ship types, everything's possible with those.

[PrimeJunta]

your complaint is bricklink, but any attempt to significant narrow fore or aft is gonna necessarily pinch the gameplay space.  to keep same current gameplay space one needs either keep relative uniform beam 'tween the perpendiculars, making her look tubby, or you need increase overall length. 

 

This is a schematic of an actual, roughly similarly-sized sailing vessel. A nice, fast, sleek brigantine, but the hull might as well be a sloop's, it doesn't matter; the mast placement would change and it'd get a longer bowsprit, but the hull would stay more or less the same.

 

You could even exaggerate the beam a little without making it look outrageously tubby. Just keep that teardrop shape.

 

Are you seriously claiming that this deck plan has less space than the one Obsidian made? A simple yes or no will suffice. Assume I'm happy to clear the deck of any superstructures that may be in the picture but isn't on Obsidian's version.

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by PrimeJunta

[Madscientist]

PrimeJunta, are you a sailor?

You seem to know a lot about ships.

 

My own knowledge can be described as:

Me: "The thing ahead swims on the water and it is bigger than a boat. That means it is a ship, right?"

somebody else: "No, this is an iceberg."

[Gromnir]

you aren't looking in 3d, are you?  and yeah, if is exact same length, and same beam amidships, even without worrying o'er the second mast, and your brushed-off superstructure issues, you got much less functional deck space. what are you seeing?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

PrimeJunta, are you a sailor?

You seem to know a lot about ships.

 

No, but I've always loved them. I've also lived most of my life in port cities and poked around them quite a bit. Most of what I know about what they look like and where the different bits fit is from building scale models when I was a kid, both from plastic kits and from bits of wood and a schematic. I built several, rigging and all -- the Wasa, the Mayflower, and the Santa Maria to name three from roughly this period.

[PrimeJunta]

you aren't looking in 3d, are you?  and yeah, if is exact same length, and same beam amidships, even without worrying o'er the second mast, and your brushed-off superstructure issues, you got much less functional deck space. what are you seeing?

 

I'm seeing a ship that's significantly wider at the beam, with more deck space, even without the suggested mild exaggeration I mentioned.

 

Would you like me to draw that in the same projection as Obsidian's model? I can probably find the time later today.

[Gfted1]

Is being on the ship considered "resting"? Or was "resting" an additional action while in your stronghold in PoE1?

[Gromnir]

*brain freeze*

 

as we said, unless you wanna make boat significantly bigger, she is gonna look tubby.  so, you wanna make "significantly wider at the beam." a largely rectangular deck with same beam 'tween perpendiculars is gonna be maximizing space. 

 

and yeah, put the boat on a windward port tack and you can let out the boom. which also means you take in your jib and use the mainsail, obscuring pretty much everything in front o' the mast.

 

*shrug*

 

am thinking pj needs actual see the 3d models o' alternatives to get a better notion o' what is going on with obsidian's awkward, but gameplay efficient, boat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valmy]

The main weird thing for me is how static the ship is but I presume it will rock in the waves once the final product is complete.

[PrimeJunta]

*brain freeze*

 

as we said, unless you wanna make boat significantly bigger, she is gonna look tubby.  so, you wanna make "significantly wider at the beam." a largely rectangular deck with same beam 'tween perpendiculars is gonna be maximizing space. 

 

and yeah, put the boat on a windward port tack and you can let out the boom. which also means you take in your jib and use the mainsail, obscuring pretty much everything in front o' the mast.

 

*shrug*

 

am thinking pj needs actual see the 3d models o' alternatives to get a better notion o' what is going on with obsidian's awkward, but gameplay efficient, boat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Here, I drew it out for you. Proportions translated exactly from that model of the brigantine -- I measured --, other stuff adjusted to match what's on Obsid'z boat.

 

Now: does it have more, less, or roughly equal deck space? Yes or no please, if that's not too difficult for you.

 

(The sails aren't exactly like they would be IRL under that kind of wind, but hey, you gotta make some concessions for gameplay reasons, no? Also, the gun deck is too low, but that's another concession I'm willing to make for the same reason.)

 

[Gromnir]

and you drew it wrong.  serious.  sails is all wrong. honest.   would need wind coming from two separate directions at once.  

 

as for deck, you are ignoring actual smaller size and less practicality in boarding party combats. make the beam largely uniform as widest point amidships and you get more space.  am not seeing how it can't be more clear or obvious. two largely rectangular ships is also gonna make for far easier boarding party combat, yes?  that should be obvious.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

and you drew it wrong.  serious.  sails is all wrong. honest.   would need wind coming from two separate directions at once.

I know. See, sometimes you need to make concessions for gameplay reasons.

 

as for deck, you are ignoring actual smaller size and less practicality in boarding party combats. make the beam largely uniform as widest point amidships and you get more space.  am not seeing how it can't be more clear or obvious. two largely rectangular ships is also gonna make for far easier boarding party combat, yes?  that should be obvious.

(A simple yes or no is still impossible for you, I see. Don't ever change...)

 

I would expect the ships to grapple, be drawn together, and then the boarding crew climb over at the point where the ships touch. It would be narrower, for sure, but then it's a choke point. Having them exactly alongside and the crews just be able to walk over the whole length of the ship would be boring.

Edited February 24, 2017 by PrimeJunta

[Gromnir]

 

and you drew it wrong.  serious.  sails is all wrong. honest.   would need wind coming from two separate directions at once.

I know. See, sometimes you need to make concessions for gameplay reasons.

 

as for deck, you are ignoring actual smaller size and less practicality in boarding party combats. make the beam largely uniform as widest point amidships and you get more space.  am not seeing how it can't be more clear or obvious. two largely rectangular ships is also gonna make for far easier boarding party combat, yes?  that should be obvious.

(A simple yes or no is still impossible for you, I see. Don't ever change...)

 

I would expect the ships to grapple, be drawn together, and then the boarding crew climb over at the point where the ships touch. It would be narrower, for sure, but then it's a choke point. Having them exactly alongside and the crews just be able to walk over the whole length of the ship would be boring.

 

yes or no, would having rectangular and uniform be easier and allow more congruent combat space during boarding party combats?

 

see?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

Now: does it have more, less, or roughly equal deck space? Yes or no please, if that's not too difficult for you.

 

(A simple yes or no is still impossible for you, I see. Don't ever change...)

[PrimeJunta]

yes or no, would having rectangular and uniform be easier and allow more congruent combat space during boarding party combats?

 

see?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes.

 

Would that make for better -- more varied, more interesting ship to ship combat?

 

(Also, you still haven't answered mine.)

[Gromnir]

 

yes or no, would having rectangular and uniform be easier and allow more congruent combat space during boarding party combats?

 

see?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes.

 

Would that make for better -- more varied, more interesting ship to ship combat?

 

(Also, you still haven't answered mine.)

 

yes

 

just did answer a yes/no.  you're welcome.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Gromnir

[general_azure]

What's all that obsession with needing a lot of free space on the deck about? We don't need to march a bloody platoon around on the thing. Many indoor locations are way more space restricted than even a very sleek boat and we don't mind fighting there either.

[PrimeJunta]

 

 

yes or no, would having rectangular and uniform be easier and allow more congruent combat space during boarding party combats?

 

see?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes.

 

Would that make for better -- more varied, more interesting ship to ship combat?

 

(Also, you still haven't answered mine.)

 

yes

 

just did answer a yes/no.  you're welcome.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fair enough. So you feel that it's more interesting to have a big congruent open space for combat, than one where the boarding party has to climb over at a narrower point of contact, the positioning of which may vary from battle to battle depending on how the vessels make contact.

 

Personally, I feel the second case would be more varied and more interesting.

 

Your Honor, the prosecution rests.

Edited February 24, 2017 by PrimeJunta