Politics 2017 Part 3

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

Swedish police arrested somebody and people with masks started riot by throwing rocks towards police. It ended when police shot towards rioters. And later in same evening people started to riot again by breaking shop windows, burning cars and they battered some people. Police estimates that about 30-50 people were behind the riots.

 

Police is investigating three claims of rioting, two claims of battering, several cases of theft and vandalism

 

EDIT: More details what Swedish police said about riots in their press conference.

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

 

Hmm ok thanks for info

[BruceVC]

Nothing speaks to the success of a policy like going into full reverse after it

 

https://www.rt.com/news/378231-germany-eu-refugee-deportation/

RT is the paradigm of the true fake news development  we face , you need to post links from other websites if you want me to respond  

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

What complaints would immigrants have living in such a generous country as Sweden have  that they are angry? What are they angry about ?

[Chilloutman]

http://www.politico.eu/article/marine-le-pen-cancels-mufti-meeting-over-headscarf/

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

What complaints would immigrants have living in such a generous country as Sweden have  that they are angry? What are they angry about ?

 

There are lots of things to complain and when those things are solved there are more things to complain.

 

Like for example why some native Finns (about 200 people) were so angry that they felt need to riot on our independence day by throwing rocks towards police, purposefully trying to hurt police horses and break their legs, breaking shop windows, stealing stuff, and vandalizing places. They gave multiple reason why they did what they did, they said that they don't get enough money from government, government don't give them enough jobs, president is idiot, rich should not have parties paid from tax Euros, etc..

 

When people feel that their life sucks some of them will always find reasons to cause damage to others or their properties like that somehow would make their life better if other people are also miserable.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

What complaints would immigrants have living in such a generous country as Sweden have  that they are angry? What are they angry about ?

 

There are lots of things to complain and when those things are solved there are more things to complain.

 

Like for example why some native Finns (about 200 people) were so angry that they felt need to riot on our independence day by throwing rocks towards police, purposefully trying to hurt police horses and break their legs, breaking shop windows, stealing stuff, and vandalizing places. They gave multiple reason why they did what they did, they said that they don't get enough money from government, government don't give them enough jobs, president is idiot, rich should not have parties paid from tax Euros, etc..

 

When people feel that their life sucks some of them will always find reasons to cause damage to others or their properties like that somehow would make their life better if other people are also miserable.

 

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

[Chilloutman]

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

 

 

OK dude, one more and you are off my ignore list xD

[Elerond]

 

There are lots of things to complain and when those things are solved there are more things to complain.

 

Like for example why some native Finns (about 200 people) were so angry that they felt need to riot on our independence day by throwing rocks towards police, purposefully trying to hurt police horses and break their legs, breaking shop windows, stealing stuff, and vandalizing places. They gave multiple reason why they did what they did, they said that they don't get enough money from government, government don't give them enough jobs, president is idiot, rich should not have parties paid from tax Euros, etc..

 

When people feel that their life sucks some of them will always find reasons to cause damage to others or their properties like that somehow would make their life better if other people are also miserable.

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

 

 

It depends what you think are those examples of some of the best qualities of life are? The life of immigrants especially refugees isn't really nothing to speak about when it comes to quality of life. Most Syrians for example had much better quality of life before their civil war than what they get here in Finland and I don't believe that situation is any better in Sweden. Like for example we don't let them work even if they want, we put them in centers/housing areas where they don't have little contact with natives, which don't have really any activities, especially in evenings. They are usually put in with people from lots of other countries. It is all planned to be temporal, but then decade past and nothing changes, except that they need to share their living quarters with more people. 

 

Of course above isn't faith that everybody faces but it is faith that lots of those who are angriest share.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

What complaints would immigrants have living in such a generous country as Sweden have  that they are angry? What are they angry about ?

 

There are lots of things to complain and when those things are solved there are more things to complain.

 

Like for example why some native Finns (about 200 people) were so angry that they felt need to riot on our independence day by throwing rocks towards police, purposefully trying to hurt police horses and break their legs, breaking shop windows, stealing stuff, and vandalizing places. They gave multiple reason why they did what they did, they said that they don't get enough money from government, government don't give them enough jobs, president is idiot, rich should not have parties paid from tax Euros, etc..

 

When people feel that their life sucks some of them will always find reasons to cause damage to others or their properties like that somehow would make their life better if other people are also miserable.

 

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

 

 

It depends what you think are those examples of some of the best qualities of life are? The life of immigrants especially refugees isn't really nothing to speak about when it comes to quality of life. Most Syrians for example had much better quality of life before their civil war than what they get here in Finland and I don't believe that situation is any better in Sweden. Like for example we don't let them work even if they want, we put them in centers/housing areas where they don't have little contact with natives, which don't have really any activities, especially in evenings. They are usually put in with people from lots of other countries. It is all planned to be temporal, but then decade past and nothing changes, except that they need to share their living quarters with more people. 

 

Of course above isn't faith that everybody faces but it is faith that lots of those who are angriest share.

 

Fair enough, you make some valid reasons why immigrants could be unhappy in a first world Western country

 

But I'm not completely  convinced this somehow justifies them committing acts of violence as people who have been invited and welcomed to live in another country. So you can be angry but that shouldn't translate to acts of violence and public criminality ?

[Elerond]

 

 

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

 

It depends what you think are those examples of some of the best qualities of life are? The life of immigrants especially refugees isn't really nothing to speak about when it comes to quality of life. Most Syrians for example had much better quality of life before their civil war than what they get here in Finland and I don't believe that situation is any better in Sweden. Like for example we don't let them work even if they want, we put them in centers/housing areas where they don't have little contact with natives, which don't have really any activities, especially in evenings. They are usually put in with people from lots of other countries. It is all planned to be temporal, but then decade past and nothing changes, except that they need to share their living quarters with more people. 

 

Of course above isn't faith that everybody faces but it is faith that lots of those who are angriest share.

 

Fair enough, you make some valid reasons why immigrants could be unhappy in a first world Western country

 

But I'm not completely  convinced this somehow justifies them committing acts of violence as people who have been invited and welcomed to live in another country. So you can be angry but that shouldn't translate to acts of violence and public criminality ?

 

 

Acts of violence and public criminality isn't never acceptable, which is why looking causes behind people's actions is important step in help to find ways to prevent more such happening in future.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah Trump would not had looked like an idiot if he had just dropped last night from his speech, but now all the defenses for his speech just come out as weak excuses.

 

Do you know what new happen that riots started?

 

 

 

 

Edit2: People seem to be angry about their life and said arrest seems to have worked as convenient excuse to release that anger in the violent and nonconstructive way that is typical for some people regardless of their origin.

 

What complaints would immigrants have living in such a generous country as Sweden have  that they are angry? What are they angry about ?

 

There are lots of things to complain and when those things are solved there are more things to complain.

 

Like for example why some native Finns (about 200 people) were so angry that they felt need to riot on our independence day by throwing rocks towards police, purposefully trying to hurt police horses and break their legs, breaking shop windows, stealing stuff, and vandalizing places. They gave multiple reason why they did what they did, they said that they don't get enough money from government, government don't give them enough jobs, president is idiot, rich should not have parties paid from tax Euros, etc..

 

When people feel that their life sucks some of them will always find reasons to cause damage to others or their properties like that somehow would make their life better if other people are also miserable.

 

But dont you think its worse to see people who left there own country for various reason and immigrated to a first world Western country, which provides examples of some of the best qualities of life, and then those  immigrants still complain and are angry?

 

In other words I have no issues with citizens in a country complaining unreasonably but I have an issue when a country takes in immigrants and its small groups of those immigrants complaining.,.,.they can always go home ?

 

Dont you think its inconsistent ?

 

 

It depends what you think are those examples of some of the best qualities of life are? The life of immigrants especially refugees isn't really nothing to speak about when it comes to quality of life. Most Syrians for example had much better quality of life before their civil war than what they get here in Finland and I don't believe that situation is any better in Sweden. Like for example we don't let them work even if they want, we put them in centers/housing areas where they don't have little contact with natives, which don't have really any activities, especially in evenings. They are usually put in with people from lots of other countries. It is all planned to be temporal, but then decade past and nothing changes, except that they need to share their living quarters with more people. 

 

Of course above isn't faith that everybody faces but it is faith that lots of those who are angriest share.

 

Fair enough, you make some valid reasons why immigrants could be unhappy in a first world Western country

 

But I'm not completely  convinced this somehow justifies them committing acts of violence as people who have been invited and welcomed to live in another country. So you can be angry but that shouldn't translate to acts of violence and public criminality ?

 

 

Acts of violence and public criminality isn't never acceptable, which is why looking causes behind people's actions is important step in help to find ways to prevent more such happening in future.

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

Edited February 22, 2017 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

 

 

Fair enough, you make some valid reasons why immigrants could be unhappy in a first world Western country

 

But I'm not completely  convinced this somehow justifies them committing acts of violence as people who have been invited and welcomed to live in another country. So you can be angry but that shouldn't translate to acts of violence and public criminality ?

 

Acts of violence and public criminality isn't never acceptable, which is why looking causes behind people's actions is important step in help to find ways to prevent more such happening in future.

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

 

 

The thing is that those things can be address those grievances but there are things that are higher on importance list for those who decide things, like fighting over if gays can marry or not, for billionth time.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

 

 

The thing is that those things can be address those grievances but there are things that are higher on importance list for those who decide things, like fighting over if gays can marry or not, for billionth time.

 

I think the rights of the gay citizens of any country should be more important than trying to integrate immigrants 

 

Citizens rights IMO should always come first in most cases 

[Chilloutman]

Hey mods, can't you somehow limit number of 'quotes' or replies in one post, seems like some people are unable to control this basic function enough, by this rate we will have one post on one page

 

Edit: Kudos to Bruce that he actually started to do it

Edited February 22, 2017 by Chilloutman

[Elerond]

 

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

 

The thing is that those things can be address those grievances but there are things that are higher on importance list for those who decide things, like fighting over if gays can marry or not, for billionth time.

 

I think the rights of the gay citizens of any country should be more important than trying to integrate immigrants 

 

Citizens rights IMO should always come first in most cases

 

 

But the thing is we increased marriage right to include same sex unions several years ago, this year our new government wanted to take that back just month before the new law come in effect.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

 

The thing is that those things can be address those grievances but there are things that are higher on importance list for those who decide things, like fighting over if gays can marry or not, for billionth time.

 

I think the rights of the gay citizens of any country should be more important than trying to integrate immigrants 

 

Citizens rights IMO should always come first in most cases

 

 

But the thing is we increased marriage right to include same sex unions several years ago, this year our new government wanted to take that back just month before the new law come in effect.

 

You joking? You telling me the Finnish government is trying to reverse gay marriage in Finland, what was the outcome ?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

But arent we facing a hopeless outcome of inevitable violence if you right,  we both admit some of the refugees dont have the same life they had in Syria and this is to expected. Countries like Sweden and Finland are not Syria and never will be, so if the outcome to end violence is  " we need to address there core grievance "  which is not possible, then surely we are saying " there will always be violence " as we cannot make certain immigrants happy 

 

I consider that an unacceptable corollary to immigrants coming to our Western countries ?

 

The thing is that those things can be address those grievances but there are things that are higher on importance list for those who decide things, like fighting over if gays can marry or not, for billionth time.

 

I think the rights of the gay citizens of any country should be more important than trying to integrate immigrants 

 

Citizens rights IMO should always come first in most cases

 

 

But the thing is we increased marriage right to include same sex unions several years ago, this year our new government wanted to take that back just month before the new law come in effect.

 

You joking? You telling me the Finnish government is trying to reverse gay marriage in Finland, what was the outcome ?

 

It was rejected not so surprisingly, meaning that law change will come effect in beginning of next month

[Chilloutman]

I know, not that trustworthy for some folks but still:

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Two thought experiments to try: http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/02/trump-haters-please-do-these-2-thought.html

[BruceVC]

Two thought experiments to try: http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/02/trump-haters-please-do-these-2-thought.html

I dont hate Trump, its counterintuitive to hate a new president of any country. Objective criticism is fine, I have seen some very good decisions by the Trump presidency around foreign policy but he has made some questionable domestic political decisions. But its far too early to write him off

 

I can answer the link though, I'm confused by the point the link is making? Trump is neither of those options, I can see  positive in both options  but neither is ideal for me. But I dont get the spurious comparisons or what is the expected outcome of answering the questions?

[Malcador]

Dubious depiction of Trump as well.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Two thought experiments to try: http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/02/trump-haters-please-do-these-2-thought.html

I dont hate Trump, its counterintuitive to hate a new president of any country. Objective criticism is fine, I have seen some very good decisions by the Trump presidency around foreign policy but he has made some questionable domestic political decisions. But its far too early to write him off

 

I can answer the link though, I'm confused by the point the link is making? Trump is neither of those options, I can see  positive in both options  but neither is ideal for me. But I dont get the spurious comparisons or what is the expected outcome of answering the questions?

 

It's just for Trump haters to see if they'd hate him just as much if one or the other alternative is true. It's meant to point out to people that may be the reason they state for hating Trump isn't the real reason.

 

More on the Milo controversy: http://thedeclination.com/the-media-strikes-back-milo-lies-and-videotape/

 

It's clear what he said though, why defend him? https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/02/20/some-breitbart-employees-set-to-walk-if-milo-not-fired/

[BruceVC]

 

 

Two thought experiments to try: http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/02/trump-haters-please-do-these-2-thought.html

I dont hate Trump, its counterintuitive to hate a new president of any country. Objective criticism is fine, I have seen some very good decisions by the Trump presidency around foreign policy but he has made some questionable domestic political decisions. But its far too early to write him off

 

I can answer the link though, I'm confused by the point the link is making? Trump is neither of those options, I can see  positive in both options  but neither is ideal for me. But I dont get the spurious comparisons or what is the expected outcome of answering the questions?

 

It's just for Trump haters to see if they'd hate him just as much if one or the other alternative is true. It's meant to point out to people that may be the reason they state for hating Trump isn't the real reason.

 

More on the Milo controversy: http://thedeclination.com/the-media-strikes-back-milo-lies-and-videotape/

 

It's clear what he said though, why defend him? https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/02/20/some-breitbart-employees-set-to-walk-if-milo-not-fired/

 

Okay I see what you mean by the Trump questions

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 

But dammit I don't think taxpayers should have to cover nose jobs, boob jobs or sex changes!

 

Even if it literally costs a fraction of a cent to you, as an individual taxpayer?

 

It's the principle. If it costs a penny, I WORKED for that penny. I earned it. Every dollar someone gets without working for someone else worked for without getting it.

 

 

I'm glad that your principles are so important to you that you feel personally offended if a fraction of a cent of your tax money goes toward helping people who have been diagnosed by multiple licensed professionals who agree that their symptoms literally can't be alleviated in any other way.

 

I mean, those fancy-ass psychiatrists might consider the treatment to be necessary, but by God, you worked an entire fraction of a second* for that money, you really had to pour your blood and sweat into it, so you definitely know better than those parasites who never worked an honest day in their entire lives!

(The intense study required to successfully complete pre-med, followed by four years of med school, followed by three to eight years of residency technically doesn't count as work.)

 

*Based on average annual income data for electrical engineers, assuming two weeks of vacation, it takes 0.78 seconds of work for one to gain a penny. And we're not even talking about an entire penny, just a small fraction of that!

 

I wasn't planning on justifying this nastiness with a response but what the hell. I am feeling combative today. Reading this you make it sound as if I have some problem with gender reassignment as a valid medical treatment. I don't. I couldn't care less either way. If someone thinks this will make them happy and a doctor and psychiatrist agree then by all means go for it. But lets not confuse this with what health insurance is supposed to be about. Health insurance is about keeping people alive and healthy. It is not intended for "elective" things like this, or a nose job, or a boob job. And yes they are all the same kind of thing.

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure what is nasty about pointing out that you're quibbling over a tiny fraction of the money you earn while walking from your cubicle to the water cooler, or that SRS has nothing in common with nose jobs and boob jobs. Unless, of course, boob jobs have become a legitimate and strictly regulated way to treat conditions that pose a danger to one's mental health since the last time I checked.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

 

 

But dammit I don't think taxpayers should have to cover nose jobs, boob jobs or sex changes!

 

Even if it literally costs a fraction of a cent to you, as an individual taxpayer?

 

It's the principle. If it costs a penny, I WORKED for that penny. I earned it. Every dollar someone gets without working for someone else worked for without getting it.

 

 

I'm glad that your principles are so important to you that you feel personally offended if a fraction of a cent of your tax money goes toward helping people who have been diagnosed by multiple licensed professionals who agree that their symptoms literally can't be alleviated in any other way.

 

I mean, those fancy-ass psychiatrists might consider the treatment to be necessary, but by God, you worked an entire fraction of a second* for that money, you really had to pour your blood and sweat into it, so you definitely know better than those parasites who never worked an honest day in their entire lives!

(The intense study required to successfully complete pre-med, followed by four years of med school, followed by three to eight years of residency technically doesn't count as work.)

 

*Based on average annual income data for electrical engineers, assuming two weeks of vacation, it takes 0.78 seconds of work for one to gain a penny. And we're not even talking about an entire penny, just a small fraction of that!

 

I wasn't planning on justifying this nastiness with a response but what the hell. I am feeling combative today. Reading this you make it sound as if I have some problem with gender reassignment as a valid medical treatment. I don't. I couldn't care less either way. If someone thinks this will make them happy and a doctor and psychiatrist agree then by all means go for it. But lets not confuse this with what health insurance is supposed to be about. Health insurance is about keeping people alive and healthy. It is not intended for "elective" things like this, or a nose job, or a boob job. And yes they are all the same kind of thing.

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure what is nasty about pointing out that you're quibbling over a tiny fraction of the money you earn while walking from your cubicle to the water cooler, or that SRS has nothing in common with nose jobs and boob jobs. Unless, of course, boob jobs have become a legitimate and strictly regulated way to treat conditions that pose a danger to one's mental health since the last time I checked.

 

Still? We don't agree. To continue that conversation we're going to have to dive into the particulars of whether or not Gender Reassignment Surgery is a valid treatment or not, which all leads right back to the thing I KNOW we are not going to find common ground on: who gets to pay for it. It's a long, OT conversation and I'm disinclined to dive into it.

 

So let's agree to disagree.