Chanters need a redesign

[Ganrich]

So, in the thread "Summoner Class" (link below) people expressed issues with Chanters being the summoners of PoE.  I expressed my opinions there that Chanters are off in terms of design, but I don't want to derail that thread further in case it resurfaces.   So, I decided to create a new thread that lets me list issues I believe the class has in terms of form and function.  This thread isn't a pro vs anti summoner debate, but is to discuss issues with the class and potential ways to remedy it.   So, without further ado I am going to list my grievances.  If you have any to add please do, and I hope for some counter points as well.

WALL OF TEXT INBOUND!!!!!

1)  It doesn't see benefits from Dexterity.   Dexterity is almost 100% dump-city.  Dex reduces the down time after using an Invocation, and outside of PotD the use of Invocations is rare.  Of course, it will reduce attack speed, but since your attacks will be mediocre at best it is best to build a tank.  (maxing Resolve and Intellect).  In fact, very few builds I have seen don't include near maxing of Might, Int, Res.  Con isn't needed, but shouldn't be dumped, and Perception is much the same way.  However, the class does benefit from Perception for its offensive Chants vs enemies to land.  So, because its main stay abilities aren't effected by Dex, it tends to be dumped.  Most other classes gain greater benefits from Dex either through attack speed for the mundane classes, or reduced cast times for casters.  In the end, this runs counter to Josh's philosophy on Attributes as it creates a very effective dump stat.

2)  Build time for Invocations, in its current state with PoE1, nearly requires long fights.  On lower difficulties it becomes rare that the Chanter actually gets to the point of casting Invocations.  When they do the fight tends to be over anyway, and the invocations are used for cleanup.  So, this further reduces the necessity of Dex.  The solution in the first game was a passive called Brisk Recitation which reduces the speed at which chants are spoken, and thus reduces the time needed to cast those invocations.  However, this means that Chanters don't really start using Invocations (on most difficulties) until later in the game, and even then its late in the combat or in a boss fight.

3)  A severe lack of Class specific talents.  This class has 2 talents.  That is the equivalent to the special talents available to a single Paladin Order.  There are 5 Orders (*2 talents per Order = 10) for a Paladin to choose from, and the Chanter class gets 2 talents, period.  One gives a passive heal when you are Chanting, and the other buffs that same heal.  This class needs some talents that let players pull it in different directions.   To some extent, this could alleviate the previous two points, but I don't believe any class should require talents to fix a design flaw.  That is me.  YMMV.

4)  This is less a critique of of Chanters, but a change in Deadfire.  Vancian magic is out, and per encounter is in.  Now, the first game had a balance.  Druids, Wizards, and Priests were incentivized to be conservative in their casting because of limited per rest casts and Ciphers/Chanters had to build their resource to cast their spells.   With the removal of per-rest abilities the Chanter could easily slip behind the other casters just because they can dump everything on the field, and their only likely inhibiting factor will be per-encounter and cast speed.  

So, those are my issues with the class.   Now, we have a few more changes in Deadfire that I would like to bring up.  We have Power Source and Power Level (Spirits for the Chanter).  We also have Empower, which is a one time boost in Power Level for an ability/spell.  These things need to be kept in mind in any proposals we make on this thread.  I have done my best to consider them here, but they don't effect a whole heck of a lot that I am proposing.

Now, lets move to remedies and ideas.  These are in the same order as my issues with the class.  

1)  Make Dex effect chant speed.  It doesn't make logical sense in terms of verisimilitude, but it would alleviate Dex being a dump to an extent.  And if we are being honest... verisimilitude was out the door a long time ago with the Attributes of PoE.  (Not a complaint, but stating a fact)  If a chant takes 4 seconds with a 2 second linger.   I would let Dex reduce the chant time by its normal amount.   If I have an 18 Dex (24% attack speed) then I would make the Chant time to 3.04 seconds, but still set linger based on the  4 second base cast time.  I still think that Chant counters are a bit long, but this is more to give Dex some more meaning to the Chanter.  This would allow you to decrease cast times via dex,  increase linger via intellect, or both.  Of course, Dex reducing down time from using an Invocation would still occur.  This removes the need for Brisk Recitation to a large degree, but it may still be needed to a smaller degree if the current build system remains.

2)  Build times for Invocation usage may still be longer than desired even with my previous recommendation.  I particularly think having Chant Phrases get longer as you use higher level Phrases is problematic, but with Brisk Recitation it becomes less so.  So, perhaps changing the details of Brisk Recitation might be necessary.  Reduce the amount it does, but keep it in the game.  However, I would posture that it might be wise to make the Chant itself the equivalent of a level 1 Phrase in PoE, and then let players select from a pool of Phrases. 

 

One idea I have is that the chanter can only have X amount of Phrases in a Chant, but the more potent Chants cost more to that limit.  For instance, "Thick Grew Their Tongues" would cost 1, but "Sure-Handed Ila" costs 2.  However, they both build chant counters at the same rate.   The Chanter can have 3 Phrases running, but since Sure-Handed Ila cost 2 it can only have it and 1 other weaker chant running.  So, instead of sacrificing the power of a Phrase vs the use of invocations... you are sacrificing versatility for power.  

You could even have phrases be run simultaneously to further bring this power level idea in line.  So, Thick Grew Their Tongues, Dull the Edge, and Blessed was Wengridh all work concurrently vs consecutively.  Which would mean more powerful phrases are spoken by themselves, or with one other lower level phrase depending on the potency of the phrase.  Just an idea, but not entirely thought out.  Recommendations are welcome.

IMHO, Chants should be entirely buffs/debuffs.   Things like Dragons Thrashed need to be Invocations.  That's just my opinion.  The exception to this would be the Come Soft Winds of Death recommendation below.  The walking death ball that is a Dragons Thrashed build is just silly. 

3)  Talents... I could go all day on this topic (I kind of do here lol).  Ancient Memory gives a HoT aspect to your Chants, and Beloved Spirits makes it better.  That's all Chanters get.  Otherwise they select from Generic talents available to all classes.  

• A)  So, keeping with Ancient Memory's theme.  I propose "Come, Come Soft Winds of Death" be removed from Phrases, and made into an           opposing type of talent to Ancient Memory.  Any time the Chanter is Chanting that small amount of damage is applied to any enemy within the Chant radius.  

 

• B)  A Talent that allows a low level invocation to be cast immediately upon entering battle.  This could be specific to a type of invocations.  Like one talent for Summons, and one for Damage, another for buffs/debuffs, etc.  

 

• C)  A Talent that (once per encounter) allows the Chanter to cast from a scroll without consuming it.  

 

• D)  A Talent that reduces Chant Radius or increases invocation requirements, but gives the Chanter's weapon added Elemental Damage.  

 

• E) A Talent that lowers Chant requirements of a specific Invocation.   Similar to Spell Mastery for the Vancian Casters in PoE1.  This would let the Chanter cast that Invocation(s) more frequently than others.  

 

• F) and so forth and so on.  I'm sure there are ideas I have missed, but the Chanter needs more Talents specific to them.  Add some below.

These are just ideas, and some could be set up to be either or selections.  Like example A could be you choose the path of Ancient Memory/Beloved Spirits, OR the path of Come, Come Soft Winds of Death/and whatever its boosting Talent may be.

These ideas would allow a more competent summoner build, or a better caster build, and perhaps a Gish build that doesn't involve full tank stats in order to spam Dragons Thrashed in the middle of all the enemies.  

4)  Vancian vs Per Encounter - I don't think I need to say more here.  The Chanter worked because of the limitations of the Vancian system to a degree.  Without those limitations it will likely be obsolete because Priests, Wizards, and Druids would just dump everything every combat and make its build time a handicap of the highest order.  (The Chanter also worked because a couple of its late game Phrases are too good like Dragons Thrashed).  Unless the concept is simple to have an incredibly passive design for a caster.  In which case, success has been obtained.

Anyway, this is just a list of ideas.  I expect some push and pull from anyone who cares about the class be you a person that wants a better summoner, buffer, debuffer, another Gish, or what have you. 

[meowschwitz]

One Very High Level Talent could also allow a summon to stick around for x amount of time after an encounter, though that might be an ability unique to a chanter subclass

Edited February 8, 2017 by meowschwitz

[tinysalamander]

3)  A severe lack of Class specific talents.  This class has 2 talents.  That is the equivalent to the special talents available to a single Paladin Order.  There are 5 Orders (*2 talents per Order = 10) for a Paladin to choose from, and the Chanter class gets 2 talents, period.  One gives a passive heal when you are Chanting, and the other buffs that same heal.

 

Furthermore, since talents are pretty limited resource I think there shouldn’t even be talents that upgrade other talents. It should automatically improve with your level if the power is not too strong on its own at later levels. It’s like learning, say, Cure 1, Cure 2, Cure 3… sure they might be different spells but that’s just boring. IMO, it’s also a lazy design to pad the number of talents.

[Boeroer]

I'm pretty fine with chanters right now.

 

But I'd have no problems if OBS would try out something new to satisfy the players who have problems with the chanter's "sedate" mechanic.

[mph]

Take a look at Sirin, a chanter (kinda) from Tyranny: she can begin combat with phrase counter above 0, retain phrases after the encounter, chant two songs at once(!), tank, heal, and other things. It seem that Obsidian was testing things out with her, and I think that we may get to see some of her powers in PoE 2.

[injurai]

I found Chanters to be underwhelming, so yes some changes would be welcomed.

[Boeroer]

Underwhelming? It's one of the most powerful classes in the game despite being no vancian caster.

[Ganrich]

Underwhelming? It's one of the most powerful classes in the game despite being no vancian caster.

Yeah, I'm definitely not arguing from the stance of power in PoE1. They aren't weak by any stretch. I just think I need to clarify that. They are just a bit of a one trick pony. Max Strenth, Intellect, Res. Dump Dex, leave Con at 10, rest of points in Perception. Give heavy armor and a 1 handed weapon with shield. Pick Talents for defence and select Sdionc of FLame or equivalent. Select Dragons Thrashed when available, or build your Chillfog Chanter.

[Ganrich]

 

3)  A severe lack of Class specific talents.  This class has 2 talents.  That is the equivalent to the special talents available to a single Paladin Order.  There are 5 Orders (*2 talents per Order = 10) for a Paladin to choose from, and the Chanter class gets 2 talents, period.  One gives a passive heal when you are Chanting, and the other buffs that same heal.

 

 

Furthermore, since talents are pretty limited resource I think there shouldn’t even be talents that upgrade other talents. It should automatically improve with your level if the power is not too strong on its own at later levels. It’s like learning, say, Cure 1, Cure 2, Cure 3… sure they might be different spells but that’s just boring. IMO, it’s also a lazy design to pad the number of talents.

I agree. The class needs some padding of it's talent numbers, though. Lol. You are right though. It's boring.

[Boeroer]

Some of the phrases and invocations need some balancing, that's true. The talents the chanter has now though (Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits) are like putting an additional Veteran's Recovery on everybody. I really like that. But a bit more variety wouldn't hurt - also true.  

[JerekKruger]

I am not opposed to this idea. Chanters are obviously powerful, but I don't particularly enjoy them.

 

Unless I am mistaken, one of the ideas behind the Chanter was that it would have a fairly passive combat style. Would people prefer to see that remain the case or is that part of the problem with the class in your view?

[Ganrich]

I am not opposed to this idea. Chanters are obviously powerful, but I don't particularly enjoy them.

 

Unless I am mistaken, one of the ideas behind the Chanter was that it would have a fairly passive combat style. Would people prefer to see that remain the case or is that part of the problem with the class in your view?

I remember Josh saying "If you want a passive Fighter you can build it that way, but if you want a more active Fighter then you can build that too." I want that kind of versatility with every class. If I want a Chanter with powerful Chants, but doesn't use Invocations as often, I can build that. If I want the Chanter to be a more active play style then I can build that. No class should be a mandated "set it and forget it" class. My main gripe is Dex being useless because it creates a single build type. How do I build a Chanter? Spec tank. Every time.

 

@Boeroer - I don't want Ancient Memory to be removed. It's a cool ability. I do think that with the scaling in Deadfire that Beloved Spirits isn't necessary. I just think the class needs more Talents. 2 is a pittance for a single class. I can't think of another class that doesn't get a solid number of Talents to really tweak its play style.

[Boeroer]

Yeah... erm... I was basically agreeing. More talents = more variety.

[Ganrich]

Oh, yeah. Sorry. I was just clarifying that I don't want Ancient Memory gone. It's cool, and unique to Chanters. Then I decided to reiterate on the need for more of that. I wasn't implying you didn't agree. I should have been more clear.

[Boeroer]

It's all peace, joy and pancakes.

[SaruNi]

JS has said there will be fewer trash mobs and fights will last longer. So unless you have an extremely DPS oriented party you'll have more opportunities to use invocations. 

 

(For many people, invocations and Vancian casting were probably used with about the same frequency---just in difficult fights. Sure, something like Spell Mastery for Chanters might have been nice.) 

 

Bear in mind, a lot of people don't want to have to do a lot of micromanagement, especially for companion characters. So having a "passive" option isn't such a bad thing, provided the class also has a more active option. 

 

Definitely don't want chants to be limited to pure buffs/debuffs, that would be boring, and a chant-focused Chanter should still be viable and interesting. 

 

"It's all peace, joy and pancakes."

 

Peace, joy, and blood pancakes (which are actually much better for you than "normal" refined carb-and-sugar pancakes---and less bland, and much more savory). 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2017/02/08/blood_pancakes_are_exactly_what_they_sound_like_a_flapjack_made_with_blood.html

[Ganrich]

JS has said there will be fewer trash mobs and fights will last longer. So unless you have an extremely DPS oriented party you'll have more opportunities to use invocations.

 

(For many people, invocations and Vancian casting were probably used with about the same frequency---just in difficult fights. Sure, something like Spell Mastery for Chanters might have been nice.)

 

Bear in mind, a lot of people don't want to have to do a lot of micromanagement, especially for companion characters. So having a "passive" option isn't such a bad thing, provided the class also has a more active option.

 

Definitely don't want chants to be limited to pure buffs/debuffs, that would be boring, and a chant-focused Chanter should still be viable and interesting.

 

"It's all peace, joy and pancakes."

 

Peace, joy, and blood pancakes (which are actually much better for you than "normal" refined carb-and-sugar pancakes---and less bland, and much more savory).

http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2017/02/08/blood_pancakes_are_exactly_what_they_sound_like_a_flapjack_made_with_blood.html

They can retain all that with talents, though.

 

A talent that adds a damage component to Chants, but increases your time to generate Chant counters. Now the Chants can be buff/Debuff only and the talent can make it do damage, but slowing invocation time. We don't need an overturned Dragons Thrashed, though.

 

This isn't an "either or" situation. We can have the Chanter be more passive and talents that allow him to be more active, or vice versa. The class needs more than one way to play it, but not at the risk forsaking its design.

 

Also, in PoE one Vancian Casters had to conserve spells for bigger/boss fights because of per-rest limitations, or run back to get more camp supplies. Now they don't. So, now a Priest can dump buffs and debuffs every fight. What is the point of a Chanter that barely can cast Invocations when his forte is being done just as well by a Priest? Add a Wizard or Druid to that, and the Chanter has nothing but summons and you won't get the chance to cast those in most cases. Sure, a Chanter being present means you can focus on different spells for your Vancian Casters, but what's wrong with being able to make your Chanter have a different focus if you already have a Vancian Caster in your party? Even with longer fights those Invocations are often too late in the fight to be of real value.

 

I am not advocating for the removal of the passive play style, but advocating for the ability to build it more active than it is now. I don't want to lose anything, but add to what is already there.

 

Edit: I'm not even considering subclasses here. They could definitely pull the class toward a more active play style or a more passive. The passive having damage components to its Chants.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ganrich

[SaruNi]

The frost trap chant was one of my favorites; they shouldn't do away with chants like that just because they're not pure buffs/debuffs. (It also went well with summons---the fast-moving dragons laying traps, or the slowness of the skeletons and ogres getting mitigated by the hobbled enemies.) Seems like an unnecessary limitation. A chanter who focuses on damaging invocations isn't going to use The Dragon Thrashed anyway, and having that build flexibility already present within the class build is a virtue. Forcing us to choose between different possible directions for a class isn't necessarily a bad thing and shouldn't be limited to subclasses (which so far appear to be more idiosyncratic departures from the ordinary class possibilities, like the Ranger who sacrifices having a pet at the beginning of combat for being able to summon a presumably more powerful undead pet).

 

It's not clear yet how per-rest Empower points will effect Vancian casting. It could be that the former Vancians can only cast very weak versions of their spells without using Empower points.

Edited February 8, 2017 by SaruNi

[Orillion]

Chanters are one class that could really use some more options to make it a more active class to play with. I heartily recommend to anyone who wants to main a Chanter in PoE 1 that you download IEMod (recently updated to support 3.05) and check the option having to do with Chanters in the menu (I don't recall what it's called, but it's the only option mentioning chants, phrases or chanters so it should be self-explanatory). It does significantly reduce the difficulty, since you can summon in a phantom, pair of ogres or even the freaking drake in the first few seconds of combat, but it actually enables you to do something with your character in most fights, which is more than you can say for the current design.

 

Balancing them in Pillars 2 to start with a few chants or creating a more active subclass would definitely help to alleviate some of the problems with their design when they're your main character. For a companion I can definitely see the appeal of "fire and forget," but I don't think anyone wants to make one thing and then spend all their time fiddling with the casters every battle.

[Ganrich]

Good points. My only issue is that you even if you focus on low level phrases and casting Invocations the time to build still creates issues for higher level Invocations in most fights. Which is part of the issue of the odd way phrases become longer and Invocations become more expensive.

 

Dragons Trashed is easily the best ability the Chanter has. It is way too OP. Can the class be played without it? Sure, but that doesn't make it an ok spell to have in the game. The frost chant is fine, and that's because it's balanced by movement. You don't just walk in and kill stuff.

 

Simultaneously, another critique of the class that I missed on my initial post is how much more limiting (very few options) both Invocations and Phrases become at higher levels. I can't help but think that the class isn't being given the same amount of focus as others.

 

On the note of Empower. How would a Chant focused Chanter even use them? I figured it would be a toggle for the next ability/Spell, but that means a Chant focused Chanter couldn't use them. Perhaps, you activate Empower and it kicks in when the next Phrase starts? I'm unsure. Just something to think on, I guess.

 

Also, with Power levels and scaling abilities in Deadfire, do we need multiple levels of Phrases? Couldn't they all be level 1 and scale in effectiveness? Then have Talents to further augment them (possibly at the expense of their cast time) in terms of effectiveness, accuracy, damage, etc. It allows what you want, and what I want. We have a frost Phrase we can select at level 1 that doesn't small damage amounts and hobbles, and shortly after a talent that increases its (or Chants in general to keep talent bloat down) potency but causes increased cast time. Or, the other way around, and a Talent that reduces your Chant potency, but speeds it up in building Invocations. This makes Talents the deciding factor vs more powerful Chants and more usage of Invocations.

[illathid]

Something I thought might be cool is if different phrases accumulated different amounts of power for invocations, rather than it being a 1:1 thing.

[Ganrich]

So, in the latest Twitch Stream Josh spoke on Empower. He said all, or nearly all, active abilities scale. Everytime you level up you gain 3 of your specific Power Source (Spirits for Chanters), and most Power Levels are about 6 Source points apart.

 

From here on out PS refers to Power Source, PL refers to Power Level, and for clarity CL is class level.

 

PL seems to be the controlling factor in scaling. At level 1 you will be PL 1 as it takes 2+ PS points to get there and you will have 3 PS, and PL 2 is required 8+ PS. So, you will have to gain CL 3 with your chanter to gain PL2, and each PL from their on out requires 2 CLs.

 

Empower, if I understand it correctly, increases your PL by 3 for a single cast. So, using the Wizard as the example, your level 3 Wizard who is Power Level 2 when using Empower will boost his spell to PL 5 (the equivalent to a CL 9 Wizard for that single Empowered cast). I use the Wizard because each odd CL is a new Power Level, and that keeps things simple. The effects of this will be based on how the sell/ability scales. Damage and accuracy are likely to be the most common effects from higher level spells that have scaled, but there could be other things that are added to spells as they scale.

 

So, with that system only boosting active abilities, what will Chanters (in their present state) need Empower for? Their Invocations come too late in battle to waste Empower on, and those are their only actives unless you pick up active Talents like Envenomed Strike. Will Empower be designed to boost the next Phrase in your Chant? This seems unlikely since Josh didn't mention passives or modals. This is another system that could allow Chanters to lag behind. So, I figured I would mention it.

[JerekKruger]

The most obvious answer would be to have their Empower points be used on Invocations. You're right that this won't be as appealing as for other classes, since Invocations come later into a battle when you'll be less likely to want/need to use an Empower point, but in a sense this fits with the design of Chanters as a low maintenance, relatively passive class. So long as they are balanced overall around this fact, it's not necessarily a bad thing that they get less from Empower points that other classes.

 

That said, it could be that Chanters are being redesigned in some way to make this less of an issue. One idea that just sprung to mind would be having Chanters start off fights with a certain number of Phrases built up already, thus allowing them to cast some Invocations straight off before needing to build up more. A level 1 Chanter might start with no phrases built up, whilst higher level Chanters get more.

[Ganrich]

The most obvious answer would be to have their Empower points be used on Invocations. You're right that this won't be as appealing as for other classes, since Invocations come later into a battle when you'll be less likely to want/need to use an Empower point, but in a sense this fits with the design of Chanters as a low maintenance, relatively passive class. So long as they are balanced overall around this fact, it's not necessarily a bad thing that they get less from Empower points that other classes.

 

That said, it could be that Chanters are being redesigned in some way to make this less of an issue. One idea that just sprung to mind would be having Chanters start off fights with a certain number of Phrases built up already, thus allowing them to cast some Invocations straight off before needing to build up more. A level 1 Chanter might start with no phrases built up, whilst higher level Chanters get more.

Are you going to use Empower on a summon after you've whittled the enemies down to 2 when there were 6-8 on the field at the onset of the fight? Especially if that summon is going to disappear after combat? If Invocations come that late then Empower will likely be fairly unused by the class. Whether it fits design or not doesn't matter. Especially if that design is poorly implemented as to change the value of the class based on difficulty. A class should always be able to use its abilities in nearly every fight throughout the game.

 

I'm not against the idea of a less active caster, but I am against the idea of a less active caster that becomes significantly more useful depending on the Difficulty Setting being higher. It should be equally useful in all difficulties by being able to use more than half its kit.

[JerekKruger]

Are you going to use Empower on a summon after you've whittled the enemies down to 2 when there were 6-8 on the field at the onset of the fight? Especially if that summon is going to disappear after combat? If Invocations come that late then Empower will likely be fairly unused by the class. Whether it fits design or not doesn't matter. Especially if that design is poorly implemented as to change the value of the class based on difficulty. A class should always be able to use its abilities in nearly every fight throughout the game.

 

I doubt I'd ever use Empower on a summon since it seems likely that the only thing that will scale with a summon is it's duration.

 

In my experience, Invocations don't come anywhere near as late as you're describing (although to be fair I play on PotD, so fights do last longer). In my last play through Kana was casting 1 or 2 Invocations in even the easiest battles, and obviously against tougher enemies he cast a lot more.

 

I'm not against the idea of a less active caster, but I am against the idea of a less active caster that becomes significantly more useful depending on the Difficulty Setting being higher. It should be equally useful in all difficulties by being able to use more than half its kit.

 

This is, however, a fair point. I don't disagree that the Chanter could be improved.

Edited February 10, 2017 by JerekKruger