Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

When people vote wrong in a democracy, it is because they are uneducated. It's like they need to be sent re-education camps, i mean schools, or something.

No, it means that the Britains need to fix their educational system. Right now it is that the more money you have the better the education for your child you can afford. It should be the aim that the state schools are at least comparable to the private schools, but right now 70% of British Parliamentarians are from a private school, and you are 6times more likely to be accepted to university when you come from a private school. But only 7% of all children visit a private school. It's a bit unfair, wouldn't you say?

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because the institution that people were asked to vote for membership of in 1973 were very different from today. They were about common markets and cooperation. The power grab by the politicians came later, when they decided that removing decision making from people and moving it to remote, irrelevant (for most people) politicians were a good idea. The EU in it's current form is nothing but a way to make it easier for corporate lobbyists to control the decision making process with as little supervision and oversight as possible.

Shieeeet, I think I developed a little bit of a crush on you now Gorth.

Without a doubt the biggest reason me and the people I know want out of the EU,

Yes the EU has problems! Yes we need to tackle them! But are you really so blind that you think going out will solve the problems? It is the worst option... Give it a few years and Britain will be gone from the international politics and to some extent economics. Going out is not really a option of you want to stay relevant as a country.

Are you really unable to see what the EU has done for you?

That right there should already give u red flags. So why should Britain wanting and leaving the EU have the conclusion that they will be phase out of international politics and economics?

Why did the britains want the Brexit? I honestly don't know, it just shows a lack of general education amongst the public (which is a government failure). People apparently don't understand what they are doing. I really don't see any advantage of Brexit that could possibly weigh up to the disadvantages.

Most people understood perfectly what they were doing with Brexit.

Unrestricted movement of labor hurt working class and the poor economically so they voted out.

Yes, most people knew what they voted against. Besides what you already mentioned, the Brexit vote went against the EU establishment, more precisely Cameron and Brussels. I don't know if most people were aware of what the EU did for them.

Would you say that Britains future is bright? Teresa May announced that universities should mainly accept British students, that they should be preferred over internationals. Miss May, with the absence of free trade, education has become Britains primary product (much more than it was before). If you can compete internationally with the EU in one thing effectively, it is education. So why do you want to close that market down?

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

 

No, it means that the Britains need to fix their educational system. Right now it is that the more money you have the better the education for your child you can afford. It should be the aim that the state schools are at least comparable to the private schools, but right now 70% of British Parliamentarians are from a private school, and you are 6times more likely to be accepted to university when you come from a private school. But only 7% of all children visit a private school. It's a bit unfair, wouldn't you say?

 

 

Teresa May announced that universities should mainly accept British students, that they should be preferred over internationals. Miss May, with the absence of free trade, education has become Britains primary product (much more than it was before). If you can compete internationally with the EU in one thing effectively, it is education. So why do you want to close that market down?

 

 

So we have a problem finding university places for those less well off, and this will be solved by having more foreign students take places in our universities?

 

Such flawless logic is part of the reason I voted for opting out of Brussels sticking their nose in our business, as well as the fact that I never voted to let them do so in the first place. Of course i'd have preferred that we go back to the EU that was voted for, an economic free market, but that choice obviously can't be allowed by MEPs who would then lose their stipends.

 

Edit: Quoting going haywire again I see!

Edited October 9, 2016 by Nonek

[pmp10]

Would you say that Britains future is bright?

I have no idea as the whole process is unprecedented.

From what I understand it will take over a decade to disentangle UK from EU.

In 15 years we will know exit conditions and outcome but until then this is just a big experiment.

Teresa May announced that universities should mainly accept British students, that they should be preferred over internationals. Miss May, with the absence of free trade, education has become Britains primary product (much more than it was before). If you can compete internationally with the EU in one thing effectively, it is education. So why do you want to close that market down?

Same reason British education market is mostly closed to the rest of the world.

Most likely they fell it no longer sufficiently benefits them.

AFAIC as long as it's payed for and answerable to British citizens they can do with it as they please.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

No, it means that the Britains need to fix their educational system. Right now it is that the more money you have the better the education for your child you can afford. It should be the aim that the state schools are at least comparable to the private schools, but right now 70% of British Parliamentarians are from a private school, and you are 6times more likely to be accepted to university when you come from a private school. But only 7% of all children visit a private school. It's a bit unfair, wouldn't you say?

 

 

 

Teresa May announced that universities should mainly accept British students, that they should be preferred over internationals. Miss May, with the absence of free trade, education has become Britains primary product (much more than it was before). If you can compete internationally with the EU in one thing effectively, it is education. So why do you want to close that market down?

So we have a problem finding university places for those less well off, and this will be solved by having more foreign students take places in our universities?

 

Such flawless logic is part of the reason I voted for opting out of Brussels sticking their nose in our business, as well as the fact that I never voted to let them do so in the first place. Of course i'd have preferred that we go back to the EU that was voted for, an economic free market, but that choice obviously can't be allowed by MEPs who would then lose their stipends.

 

Edit: Quoting going haywire again I see!

You guys have two separate problems: the fact that your education system is not the best if you don't have the money, and the fact that May just got rid of one of your main products. Two separate problems (although related).

 

Thinking about it, I pity your queen... she had to witness the downfall of Britain. Not a nice thing.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

More people vote No than yes. Good job men.

More people vote No than yes. Bad job guys... Having a united Europe a decade ago could have avoided every major crisis since then (or at least make it far easier to deal with). I also find it amusing how so many voted against the EU as a whole... You guys do realise that the EU has assured peace since 50 years, which is, considering European history, quite an archivement?

How exatly EU assured peace since 50 years? EU is not even half that old.

 

Also, peace my a**:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

Well... Since the 1960s there has not been a war between the EU members, and especially between Germany and France... Which is a long period considering our history. And while obviously there was war in Europe, there was no war between EU members. And that is very valuable considering how powerful those members are. Two world wars have so far come from Europe... Ready for number three? No? Well, at least to some extent the EU will stop World War III, and that is by making war between its members impossible.

 

But sure, you guys live on in your world where the EU is not related to inner European peace what so ever and is in fact totally unnecessary.

 

 

This is like stating that since CCCP there was no war between states in CCCP. How old are you? Alosi ts funny that you need EU to not constantly war French

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

 

More people vote No than yes. Good job men.

More people vote No than yes. Bad job guys... Having a united Europe a decade ago could have avoided every major crisis since then (or at least make it far easier to deal with). I also find it amusing how so many voted against the EU as a whole... You guys do realise that the EU has assured peace since 50 years, which is, considering European history, quite an archivement?

How exatly EU assured peace since 50 years? EU is not even half that old.

 

Also, peace my a**:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

Well... Since the 1960s there has not been a war between the EU members, and especially between Germany and France... Which is a long period considering our history. And while obviously there was war in Europe, there was no war between EU members. And that is very valuable considering how powerful those members are. Two world wars have so far come from Europe... Ready for number three? No? Well, at least to some extent the EU will stop World War III, and that is by making war between its members impossible.

 

But sure, you guys live on in your world where the EU is not related to inner European peace what so ever and is in fact totally unnecessary.

This is like stating that since CCCP there was no war between states in CCCP. How old are you? Alosi ts funny that you need EU to not constantly war French

My age is unimportant. How does it change my arguments?

The problem with your argument is that the EU creates dependence between its members, and thus makes a war impossible. And yes, there has been a lot of war between France and Germany... Between 1871 and 1940, we invaded France three times. And well, never since . And I don't really see a reason for that but reformed politics and the EU.

 

The original purpose of the EU is to avoid war, and it does that so far so good.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

So we have a problem finding university places for those less well off, and this will be solved by having more foreign students take places in our universities?

 

Such flawless logic is part of the reason I voted for opting out of Brussels sticking their nose in our business, as well as the fact that I never voted to let them do so in the first place. Of course i'd have preferred that we go back to the EU that was voted for, an economic free market, but that choice obviously can't be allowed by MEPs who would then lose their stipends.

 

Edit: Quoting going haywire again I see!

 

You guys have two separate problems: the fact that your education system is not the best if you don't have the money, and the fact that May just got rid of one of your main products. Two separate problems (although related).

 

Thinking about it, I pity your queen... she had to witness the downfall of Britain. Not a nice thing.

 

 

Denial, the last resort of poor logic. Condescending and overdramatic as well, I think Barothmuk might be correct and this is one of Bruce's alts, demonstrates the same lack of reasoning and basic comprehension.

 

Edit: Quoting is getting really strange.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

So we have a problem finding university places for those less well off, and this will be solved by having more foreign students take places in our universities?

 

Such flawless logic is part of the reason I voted for opting out of Brussels sticking their nose in our business, as well as the fact that I never voted to let them do so in the first place. Of course i'd have preferred that we go back to the EU that was voted for, an economic free market, but that choice obviously can't be allowed by MEPs who would then lose their stipends.

 

Edit: Quoting going haywire again I see!

You guys have two separate problems: the fact that your education system is not the best if you don't have the money, and the fact that May just got rid of one of your main products. Two separate problems (although related).

 

Thinking about it, I pity your queen... she had to witness the downfall of Britain. Not a nice thing.

Denial, the last resort of poor logic. Condescending and overdramatic as well, I think Barothmuk might be correct and this is one of Bruce's alts, demonstrates the same lack of reasoning and basic comprehension.

 

Edit: Quoting is getting really strange.

Being overdramatic is a legit stylistic tool I use quite often (although historically speaking I'm not even wrong... In the queens lifetime, Britain came from its last decades as an empire to Brexit, I understand that as a quite a loss of political impact). And what do you mean by quoting haywire? I only know a movie of that name, and I've never seen it...

Besides, what is it I am denying?

But wouldn't you agree with me that the British education system is favouring the children of those who are wealthy enogh to afford private schools?

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

Denial, the last resort of poor logic. Condescending and overdramatic as well, I think Barothmuk might be correct and this is one of Bruce's alts, demonstrates the same lack of reasoning and basic comprehension.

 

Edit: Quoting is getting really strange.

Being overdramatic is a legit stylistic tool I use quite often (although historically speaking I'm not even wrong... In the queens lifetime, Britain came from its last decades as an empire to Brexit, I understand that as a quite a loss of political impact). And what do you mean by quoting haywire? I only know a movie of that name, and I've never seen it...

Besides, what is it I am denying?

But wouldn't you agree with me that the British education system is favouring the children of those who are wealthy enogh to afford private schools?

 

 

The fall of Empire is just a fact, our role in the world changed, her Majesty remained as head of state and experienced no real change as the Commonwealth remained. The overdramatic silliness is just that. Britain leaving a union it never agreed to join is hardly worthy of note in comparison, the Queen has gone through far more interesting times such as the Hun's bombing of London, Irish terrorism, War etcetera.

 

The quoting functionality of the forum is going haywire, as is its wont.

 

You're denying any correlation between limited university places, and foreigners taking them denying natives that opportunity, this should be simply obvious to anyone with a basic reasoning ability. I am more concerned with the worth of degrees, the financial systems sustainability, our working classes future, and the dominance of the City's financial institutions.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Nonek

[redneckdevil]

 

 

 

 

Because the institution that people were asked to vote for membership of in 1973 were very different from today. They were about common markets and cooperation. The power grab by the politicians came later, when they decided that removing decision making from people and moving it to remote, irrelevant (for most people) politicians were a good idea. The EU in it's current form is nothing but a way to make it easier for corporate lobbyists to control the decision making process with as little supervision and oversight as possible.

Shieeeet, I think I developed a little bit of a crush on you now Gorth.

Without a doubt the biggest reason me and the people I know want out of the EU,

Yes the EU has problems! Yes we need to tackle them! But are you really so blind that you think going out will solve the problems? It is the worst option... Give it a few years and Britain will be gone from the international politics and to some extent economics. Going out is not really a option of you want to stay relevant as a country.

Are you really unable to see what the EU has done for you?

That right there should already give u red flags. So why should Britain wanting and leaving the EU have the conclusion that they will be phase out of international politics and economics?

Why did the britains want the Brexit? I honestly don't know, it just shows a lack of general education amongst the public (which is a government failure). People apparently don't understand what they are doing. I really don't see any advantage of Brexit that could possibly weigh up to the disadvantages.

I wasn't implying britains reason for leaving, I was talking about since Britain isn't gonna be part of the fan club anymore that they are gonna disappear from economics and international politics. Why can't Britain stand on its own and why does it HAVE to be part of it? That's the red flags right there that if they are part of the group that they have to be dealt with unfavorably. Not favorably OR neutral, but unfavorably. That's the red flags right there.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

My age is unimportant.The problem with your argument is that the EU creates dependence between its members, and thus makes a war impossible. And yes, there has been a lot of war between France and Germany... Between 1871 and 1940, we invaded France three times. And well, never since . And I don't really see a reason for that but reformed politics and the EU.

 

The original purpose of the EU is to avoid war, and it does that so far so good.

 

It has nothing to do with the EU.

1. German army was disbanded after WW2 and reformed under the NATO boot. So Germany doesn't have a free hand in ordering their own troops.

2. Charter of the United Nations orders military intervention for all it's members in case of German soldier troops even steps in members country.

 

Now those are actual reasons we have relatively peaceful few years.

Absolutely right!!! Germany is the only cause of every European war ever!! How could I be so blind?

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Denial, the last resort of poor logic. Condescending and overdramatic as well, I think Barothmuk might be correct and this is one of Bruce's alts, demonstrates the same lack of reasoning and basic comprehension.

 

Edit: Quoting is getting really strange.

Being overdramatic is a legit stylistic tool I use quite often (although historically speaking I'm not even wrong... In the queens lifetime, Britain came from its last decades as an empire to Brexit, I understand that as a quite a loss of political impact). And what do you mean by quoting haywire? I only know a movie of that name, and I've never seen it...

Besides, what is it I am denying?

But wouldn't you agree with me that the British education system is favouring the children of those who are wealthy enogh to afford private schools?

The fall of Empire is just a fact, our role in the world changed, her Majesty remained as head of state and experienced no real change as the Commonwealth remained. The overdramatic silliness is just that. Britain leaving a union it never agreed to join is hardly worthy of note in comparison, the Queen has gone through far more interesting times such as the Hun's bombing of London, Irish terrorism, War etcetera.

 

The quoting functionality of the forum is going haywire, as is its wont.

 

You're denying any correlation between limited university places, and foreigners taking them denying natives that opportunity, this should be simply obvious to anyone with a basic reasoning ability. I am more concerned with the worth of degrees, the financial systems sustainability, our working classes future, and the dominance of the City's financial institutions.

Fair enough, having no international students will create a few more places. Places private school pupils are still 6 times more likely to get. Instead of creating a few hindered new places you should rather focus on making the entire system more fair.

 

On a side note

Concerning my previous post: Germany has obviously two world wars

[redneckdevil]

Germany didn't start the first one though, they only got blamed for it and that blame caused the second ww

[Raithe]

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

 

 

....

Britain’s biggest companies are being frozen out of crucial discussions in Brussels, sparking fears their international operations could face swift “policy punishment” over the decision by voters to leave the EU.

 

Senior executives across the spectrum of industry sectors have told the Sunday Telegraph that they are now struggling to speak to EU officials, despite having operations and partnerships worth billions of euros on the continent. It came as the urgent need for more trade and diplomacy expertise in London is sparking broader fears about the clout British companies are able to draw on further afield.

 

The Brussels representatives of some of the largest FTSE 100 companies are finding that calls go unreturned, discussion papers are not shared and invitations to key meetings are no longer extended. One source said: “We’re finding now that nobody will take our calls. Britain is still a member state but we can’t get a hearing.”

Another experienced Brussels operator at one of Britain’s biggest global players said UK officials inside the European Commission were also being excluded, making it doubly difficult to hold any sway.

 

He said: “The single most disturbing thing is what’s happening within the arms of the British government based here. Those individuals who were amenable to business are either being side-lined or nudged out of key roles.

“French officials and diplomats are the ones most eager to use the situation to their advantage.”

The developments are early signs of the problems British business may face as Theresa May prepares to trigger Article 50 by the end of March.
 

The EU is working on crucial legislation on areas including banking, energy, telecoms, media and consumer products. According to the Great Repeal Bill, announced by Mrs May for the autumn Parliament, this legislation will be incorporated into UK law until it can be repealed at a later date, meaning legislation is being developed now with limited British influence that could impact UK businesses.

 

The turmoil in Britain’s diplomatic corps is also affecting corporate giants outside the EU. Those that have relied on assistance from the Foreign Office to do business and win regulatory approval in far-flung territories are finding diplomats tied up in Brexit work.

 

A spokesman for the European Commission denied there had been any change in attitude towards British business. He said: “The European Commission continues to meet with many British companies and other stakeholders and will not stop doing so.”

 

However, the spokesman warned that officials would not discuss the EU’s position on the detail of Britain’s exit from the EU with businesses. He said: “Future negotiations... with the UK over its departure from the EU, however, will of course be conducted with the UK Government, though clearly stakeholders from all over the EU will continue to make their views known.”

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Raithe

[Ben No.3]

Germany didn't start the first one though, they only got blamed for it and that blame caused the second ww

Sort of. There are many causes of WWI, amongst those are also remain militarism as a big one, as well as the Schlieffen Plan. It is generally regarded that WWI was a more or less "everyone's fault", but Germany lost so it had to take the blame. And yes, without the treaty of Versailles hitler may not have risen to power. But again that is putting it to simple.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

 

 

 

....

Britain’s biggest companies are being frozen out of crucial discussions in Brussels, sparking fears their international operations could face swift “policy punishment” over the decision by voters to leave the EU.

 

Senior executives across the spectrum of industry sectors have told the Sunday Telegraph that they are now struggling to speak to EU officials, despite having operations and partnerships worth billions of euros on the continent. It came as the urgent need for more trade and diplomacy expertise in London is sparking broader fears about the clout British companies are able to draw on further afield.

 

The Brussels representatives of some of the largest FTSE 100 companies are finding that calls go unreturned, discussion papers are not shared and invitations to key meetings are no longer extended. One source said: “We’re finding now that nobody will take our calls. Britain is still a member state but we can’t get a hearing.”

Another experienced Brussels operator at one of Britain’s biggest global players said UK officials inside the European Commission were also being excluded, making it doubly difficult to hold any sway.

 

He said: “The single most disturbing thing is what’s happening within the arms of the British government based here. Those individuals who were amenable to business are either being side-lined or nudged out of key roles.

“French officials and diplomats are the ones most eager to use the situation to their advantage.”

The developments are early signs of the problems British business may face as Theresa May prepares to trigger Article 50 by the end of March.

 

The EU is working on crucial legislation on areas including banking, energy, telecoms, media and consumer products. According to the Great Repeal Bill, announced by Mrs May for the autumn Parliament, this legislation will be incorporated into UK law until it can be repealed at a later date, meaning legislation is being developed now with limited British influence that could impact UK businesses.

 

The turmoil in Britain’s diplomatic corps is also affecting corporate giants outside the EU. Those that have relied on assistance from the Foreign Office to do business and win regulatory approval in far-flung territories are finding diplomats tied up in Brexit work.

 

A spokesman for the European Commission denied there had been any change in attitude towards British business. He said: “The European Commission continues to meet with many British companies and other stakeholders and will not stop doing so.”

 

However, the spokesman warned that officials would not discuss the EU’s position on the detail of Britain’s exit from the EU with businesses. He said: “Future negotiations... with the UK over its departure from the EU, however, will of course be conducted with the UK Government, though clearly stakeholders from all over the EU will continue to make their views known.”

 

 

What is this related to? What point are you trying to make?

Obviously the EU is not gonna treat the UK particularly nice. In my opinion that is a good move, as otherwise it makes leaving the EU to attractive for other countries. But that's just me

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

 

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

 

 

Hardly unexpected is it? We rocked the gravy train, and now Brussels wishes to punish us for that, and send a clear warning to any other member states wanting independence and freedom. It's a sign of things to come I warrant.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

 

Hardly unexpected is it? We rocked the gravy train, and now Brussels wishes to punish us for that, and send a clear warning to any other member states wanting independence and freedom. It's a sign of things to come I warrant.

You will agree with me that having all of the trade advantages of being a EU member while not being a member of the EU isn't particularly fair towards EU members. You cannot make leaving the EU an attractive choice. Besides, that definition of "freedom" is am interesting one... Nobody seeks to conquer Europe. Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

 

 

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

Hardly unexpected is it? We rocked the gravy train, and now Brussels wishes to punish us for that, and send a clear warning to any other member states wanting independence and freedom. It's a sign of things to come I warrant.

You will agree with me that having all of the trade advantages of being a EU member while not being a member of the EU isn't particularly fair towards EU members. You cannot make leaving the EU an attractive choice. Besides, that definition of "freedom" is am interesting one... Nobody seeks to conquer Europe.

 

 

No I don't agree, Europe benefits from trade with as many partners as possible, this is just childish, petty, despotic and proves we were right to exit this institution. It is not the EUs right to punish anyone for leaving a union that no voter has approved. Freedom is a countries right to self govern, and there are many methods to conquer, not just conventional military ones.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

Brussels slams the door on UK companies

Hardly unexpected is it? We rocked the gravy train, and now Brussels wishes to punish us for that, and send a clear warning to any other member states wanting independence and freedom. It's a sign of things to come I warrant.

You will agree with me that having all of the trade advantages of being a EU member while not being a member of the EU isn't particularly fair towards EU members. You cannot make leaving the EU an attractive choice. Besides, that definition of "freedom" is am interesting one... Nobody seeks to conquer Europe.

No I don't agree, Europe benefits from trade with as many partners as possible, this is just childish, petty, despotic and proves we were right to exit this institution. It is not the EUs right to punish anyone for leaving a union that no voter has approved. Freedom is a countries right to self govern, and there are many methods to conquer, not just conventional military ones.

The EU Union is at a state of risks through the refugee crisis anyway, the Brexit is not really helping it. Yes, obviously it is not fair to go hard on Britain, and under other circumstances of say go ahead and make deals. But right now the Brexit makes voices all across Europe to leave louder, and that just makes the refugee crisis worse. Even worse if more countries leave. The refugees need help, but in order to help efficiently we need a working EU. And Brexit is not exactly making the EU more stable, so right now, it is important to avoid other countries from leaving, so the first few years of Brexit will be though. Obviously later on it can be loosend ...

[Nonek]

So punish a nation and trade partner that simply wants self determinance for the sake of non European non citizens? Yes that makes perfect sense.

 

It's punishment for rocking the gravy train as I said earlier, and of course a blatant threat by Brussels trying to quench any hints of insurrection.

[Ben No.3]

So punish a nation and trade partner that simply wants self determinance for the sake of non European non citizens? Yes that makes perfect sense.

 

It's punishment for rocking the gravy train as I said earlier, and of course a blatant threat by Brussels trying to quench any hints of insurrection.

Punish a rich country by simply not giving it AS GOOD deals as other countries because it behaves in a way that has never been dealt with in order to help millions of people that have fled from war? I'd say it sounds pretty okay... Someone has to loose, so who should it be? The refugees or the rich country?

[Ben No.3]

It is not good or fair, but it is the lesser of two evils. One can sustain itself, the other not.

But that's just my opinion

Edited October 9, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Nonek]

Sorry but thats naive, illogical and unrealistic, refugees are a drain on the EU, trade with Britain is a benefit, the EU by accomodating non citizens and foiling trade with Great Britain is cutting off its own nose to spite its face. It gains nothing for the refugees, it gains nothing for member states, all it does is ensure that the MEPs keep their jobs, keep their noses in the trough, and helps threaten member states thinking of independence and freedom.

 

Edit: Everybody loses except the politician in Brussels, this is not a simplistic lesser evil.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Nonek