Opinions needed for ranger build

[Mocker22]

Hey guys, coming back to PoE after a long break and decided to play a ranger using hunting bows. Wanted to get opinions and facts on a few things to help me finish off my build.

 

-Vicious or Swift Aim - Rangers have crazy accuracy already but does the increased amount of crits and the extra dmg from Vicious outweigh the increase in attack speed, especially when considering twin and driving arrows? Heavily considering the doemenels quest line as the crit dmg seems to be the best of the three options for a ranger, and incidentally I've never done them before. 

 

Also just curious how these two modes will work with penetrating shot....not too keen on the idea of -40% attack speed.

 

Outlanders Frenzy - Attack speed works on ranged, right?? (IIRC you can now take outlanders and apprentice sneak attack both right?)

 

Trying to decide on how high to bring intelligence also, more time on wounding shot and stunning shot doesn't sound bad butttt......I'm gonna have Hiravas and I'm just not worried about keeping DoTs up, and won't stunning shot just reapply when I hit the mob again?

 

Thanks all, I'm sure I'll think of more things to ask.

 

 

[Ben No.3]

There is a talent that modifies swift aim, so that you loose only two accuracy (instead of seven), so you might want to use that. I'm to 90% sure outlanders frenzy works with ranged. You might also consider that you can buy a unique padded armour in dyrford that has a spellbind to Delirious accelerity of motion (+50 % speed). Especially if you want to use outlanders frenzy, DAoM and stormcaller (which I highly recommend), High Int is a good idea... The longer these guys last the better. At least 14 I'd say. You'll have Outlander's Frenzy for every-day-encounters and an additional DAoM for boss fights (EDIT: Forgot that these don't stack... which is fine imo) Yes, apprentice's sneak attack also works quite well. If you take that you may want to consider taking an arquebus or aralbest in your second slot so that you can take advantage of an initial burst at the start of combat. Then switch to bow.

Already thought of animal companion? If you want it to tank, I'd recommend a antelope over a beat. The bear only gets +2 DR, compared to the Antelope's +7 Defenses, both scale with level Personally, I prefer the antelope in this case

Edited September 15, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Boeroer]

If you use Persistence, then lower INT is actually a good thing because of wounding. it's damage gets buffed by MIG, but not INT. INT only stretches out the time over which the damage gets applied in this case. Same with Wounding Shot's bonus damage.

But if you want to use Outlander's Frenzy and outer stuff like Binding Roots you don't want to dump it I guess.

 

Persistence has the highest single target DPS of all bows by the way because of wounding.

 

Outlander's Frenzy can be used to counter Vicious Aim's speed penalty. With both you will have +5% speed, +10 ACC and +20% DMG and +3 MIG (which will lead to additional +9% dmg). Swift Aim and Outl. Frenzy's speed bonus don't stack.

Also note that neither Vicious nor Swift Aim work with Twinned Arrows. Those all all modals and only one of them can be active.

Outlander's Frenzy takes some time to cast - time in which you can't shoot. If you let enemies come into range after initializing combat this dosn't matter so much.

 

Before reaching lvl 13 (Twinned Arrows), I would recommend Swift Aim (+ Driving Flight) if you use Stormcaller - you want to proc Returning Storm as often as possible. Persistence works really well with Outl. Frenzy + Vicious Aim. Wounding profits hrealy from high MIG and dmg mods. Vicious Aim also works with some spells like all the Missile scrolls and so on.

 

Apprentice Sneak Attack is a good choice. With Binding Roots, Wounding Shot and later Stunning Shots it will be triggered all the time.

 

Also note that Marked Prey works in a very special way with multi-projectile attacks like Blunderbusses, Golden Gaze, Missile scrolls and so on: the first projectile gets +20% DMG, the second +40%, the third +60%and so on. Don't know if it's also the case when using Twinned Arrows.

 

With Persistence and also Stormcaller Pen. Shot is of no use. As Loren Tyr showed in a nice graphic, there's only a certain sweet spot where Pen. Shot is paying off. It's not worth a talent point. Wounding gets calculated before DR and is raw damage - so the extra 5 DR bypass aren't needed - the speed loss is too severe. And with Stormcaller you will already have an automatic 6DR debuff and you want to shot as fast as possible.

So I strongly don't recommend Pen. Shot as long as you're not using things like Blunderbusses or missile spells.

 

If you want to deal a lot of damage with your pet, take either Wolf or Stag. Wolf has the highest base damage which works very well with all the DMG boosts like Predator's Sense and all, making his attacks the most devastating against single targets. When you use Hiravias or Kana Rua who can apply a lot of AoE DoT effects, then use Stag. It's carnage is now 1/encounter. With AoE DoT and carnage + Predator's Sense + Vicious + Merciless Companion and so on the stag is great.

 

For tanking the bear is still nice. The DR bonus scales with level. If you buff the antelope's defenses further it's quite sturdy. But real tanking with pets is not possible anyway if tou don't provide support with defense buffs. Continous Healing with pets is great (Consec. Ground, Moonwell and so on). They have no health issues. A really, really good combo is Triumph of the Crusader (priest) plus a DPS pet like wolf or stag: as soon as the pet kills an enemy (which happens a lot when fully skilled and all DMG mods are on) it gets healed completely. And since it has no health this can go on and on and on...

Edited September 15, 2016 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

In testing in tavern fight club I find that bows do better with Vicious Aim instead of Swift Aim and that Penetrating Shot is better even against only 5 DR.

 

Now this is done with identical target characters and identical Rangers except one takes Vicious and the other Swift (The Vicious guy also ends up with an extra talent as Swift uses two)

 

I get the deflection of the targets to be equal to the accuracy of the Swift Aim guy, the Vicious guy has an accuracy advantage.

 

Then in the tavern pause the game and have your Rangers shoot their own target and see who drops first. Since it is out of combat the target's endurance will regen and it will be health loss that ends the fight. Try it out with the targets wearing various levels of DR to see how it affects which is better, I tend to use fine Plate as the deciding DR as tough enemies have more DR anyway.

 

Just make sure everything is identical except for what you want to test. Run a test for Vicious vs Swift with Hunting Bows, another for Vicious Vs Swift for Warbows, run one for Hunting vs Warbows, Dex vs Might whatever you are curious about.

[Boeroer]

My comments about Pen. Shot and Vicious Aim were made with either Persistence (wounding) or Stormcaller (spell chance/shock DR debuff) in mind. With other bows it might be a bit different. But in my opinion a bow ranger should aim for one of those bows. Persistence for the best single target DPS and Stormcaller for good DPS, nice (kind of) AoE CC and DR debuff. Both are obtainable quite easily and early for such good weapons.

[Livegood118]

If you use Persistence, then lower INT is actually a good thing because of wounding. it's damage gets buffed by MIG, but not INT. INT only stretches out the time over which the damage gets applied in this case. Same with Wounding Shot's bonus damage.

 

Is this still the case? If so, that kinda sucks. I thought MIG increased damage and INT extended the duration.

 

I assume the same principle also applies then to drawn in spring and Tidefall.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Yes, it's special to wounding as enchantment (Persistence, Drwan in Spring, Tidefall) and also Wounding Shot. INT influences the diration, but not the damage. It only gets spread out. It is indeed stupid, but it is as it is.

 

So, basically with 10 INT you could have 10 dmg over 5 sec. With 20 INT you would have 10 dmg over 7,5 sec (made the numbers up just to illustrate). It's not superbad to have high INT, it just takes a biut longer for the whole damage to apply. IN certain cases this might even be better to have a longer DoT effect (for Predator's Sense and Cleansing Flame for example - playing a berathian priest with Tidefall, Cleansing Flame and tons of INT atm and it's great). However, with very low INT (you can reach a value of 1 with items I guess?) the DoT of wouding gets applied very quickly (roughly 2.5 sec) which is generally better.

 

Most other DoTs work "correctly" with INT, meaning that you get more damage ticks and therefore more damage with higher INT. Those are Deep Wounds, Envenomed Strike, I think all of the DoT spells (there may be excaptions) and so on.

 

Those are two different categories of DoT effects.

 

I recall there are three categories of DoT effects (in the code), but I forgot what the third was...

Edited September 15, 2016 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

I might draw attention to this in the bugs thread ...

[Boeroer]

It's no bug. It's done on purpose, you can see it in the code. Why else would they introduce a seperate category of DoT effect if not on purpose? I don't say it's good though.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

It's no bug. It's done on purpose, you can see it in the code. Why else would they introduce a seperate category of DoT effect if not on purpose? I don't say it's good though.

 

To me, in the absence of something from the devs themselves, this seems like a bit of an oversight to me. I've posted in the bugs page anyway so we'll see I guess.

[Loren Tyr]

The distinction is indeed intentional, and makes sense given what it is intended to do. Normal DoT effects specify the base amount of damage they do per tick, and the total damage is then just a function of the number of ticks. But for these Wounding type of effects, the total damage is specified instead (as a percentage of the primary damage source it keys off of) and the damage per tick is then a function of the number of ticks. Though of course it would be nice to scale this total amount by the INT modifier as well as the MIG modifier, because it is indeed a bit counterintuitive that it gets worse with duration (or alternatively, keep the duration fixed, but that is likely more difficult to implement properly).

 

There isn't really a third type of DoT, by the way. There are two separate ModifiedStats for the ApplyOverTime (ie. Wounding-type), one that grabs pre-DR damage and one that grabs post-DR damage to compute their percentage off of. All the Wounding ones use post-DR damage, the only effect that comes to mind that uses the pre-DR one is Enduring Flames. That gets rather more screwed by higher INT though, because not being Raw damage more ticks also means more DR reduction. 

[Mocker22]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Really helped me sort some things out.

 

Oh, did they ever change it so that Heart of the Storm increases dmg when using Stormcaller?

Edited September 15, 2016 by Mocker22

[Livegood118]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Really helped me sort some things out.

 

Oh, did they ever change it so that Heart of the Storm increases dmg when using Stormcaller?

 

Heart of the Storm increases both the lighting and the piercing damage of Stormcaller. Elemental talents affect the damage of both damage types on dual damage weapons provided that the elemental damage is listed first (e.g. corrode/slashing).

 

Pls do not report to the devs

[bigwillystyle]

... the only effect that comes to mind that uses the pre-DR one is Enduring Flames. That gets rather more screwed by higher INT though, because not being Raw damage more ticks also means more DR reduction. 

 

It would be nice if INT affected the damage of the ticks as well.  

[Loren Tyr]

 

Thanks for all the comments guys. Really helped me sort some things out.

 

Oh, did they ever change it so that Heart of the Storm increases dmg when using Stormcaller?

 

Heart of the Storm increases both the lighting and the piercing damage of Stormcaller. Elemental talents affect the damage of both damage types on dual damage weapons provided that the elemental damage is listed first (e.g. corrode/slashing).

 

Pls do not report to the devs

 

 

They already know, actually. I doubt they'll fix it so the damage bonus (if any) of the damage type actually dealt (for better or worse, that can obviously go both ways) though. Given the way it's implemented that would be quite complicated to do, I can't imagine they'll consider it worth the effort at this late stage.

[L4wlight]

Also note that Marked Prey works in a very special way with multi-projectile attacks like Blunderbusses, Golden Gaze, Missile scrolls and so on: the first projectile gets +20% DMG, the second +40%, the third +60%and so on.

It doesn't work that way, if a second target gets damaged by Driving Flight though.

[Loren Tyr]

 

Also note that Marked Prey works in a very special way with multi-projectile attacks like Blunderbusses, Golden Gaze, Missile scrolls and so on: the first projectile gets +20% DMG, the second +40%, the third +60%and so on.

It doesn't work that way, if a second target gets damaged by Driving Flight though.

 

 

And similarly with Concussive Missiles: only works if there's no one in the missile AOE. Bounding Missiles doesn't work at all (unless perhaps there's no second target for it to bounce to at all; will probably work then).

 

Twin Stones + Driving Flight is quite hilarious as well, by the way

[DreamWayfarer]

Twin Stones + Driving Flight is quite hilarious as well, by the way

Wait, what? How is this supposed to work?

[Loren Tyr]

Upon exploding, a new stone flies in a seemingly random direction and also explodes. I can't quite tell what determines that direction, whether it is really random or just unpredictable. I don't think the new stones do path damage, but they definitely do damage upon explosion. 

 

Attached a screenshot I just made. The two original explosions are the two in the middle, with two additional ones to each side. In this case the new stones actually crossed, by the way. The left one went right and the right one went left.

 

Probably a good thing these don't do Friendly Fire...

[Boeroer]

Yeah that is fun to watch - Missile Barrage and Bounding Missiles with Driving Flight are also fun. Does Rolling Flame and such spells also work with it? I don't guess so...

 

But because of the greatly reduced damage of the second hit it's not too powerful. For items with spell chances and stunning shots this doesn't matter though. You generate more procs (and stun more enemies) with driving flight - that's what makes it so valuable in my opinion, not the whimpy damage.

 

But a melee ranger with Grey Sleeper could be fun. Since Stunning Shots + melee also works with Driving FLightI it may be that Driving Flight + Stunning Shots generates more hits that make it more likely to trigger Paralyze, Twin Stones and Invoke Vessel (a bit like carnage does)? Twin Stones would then also use Driving Flight for that hilarious effect...

Edited September 16, 2016 by Boeroer

[L4wlight]

I don't think that Stunning Shots (per Driving Flight or not) triggers "on Hit or Critical Hit" effects. Would be cool though.

Edited September 16, 2016 by L4wlight

[Boeroer]

No, I meant since Driving Flight allows to stun secondary targets even in melee with Driv. Flight it maybe also could be used to generate more hits that trigger spell chances - because there has to be some kind of hit roll for the secondary target, or not? Just an idea - most certainly it doesn't work this way, but who knows?

[bigwillystyle]

All the Wounding ones use post-DR damage, the only effect that comes to mind that uses the pre-DR one is Enduring Flames. That gets rather more screwed by higher INT though, because not being Raw damage more ticks also means more DR reduction. 

 

Do the wounding shots also multiply their damage by might +dam multiplier?  That's the one thing that Enduring Flames does seem to have going for it.  The damage is equal to pre-DR damage * 50% * (1+Might Bonus).  I've got a Paladin with a 33 might, so it's kind of cool.  If you were comfortable with a lower INT on a Paladin, Enduring Flames could be pretty great.  I wouldn't personally be comfortable with a low INT Paladin though.

[Loren Tyr]

 

All the Wounding ones use post-DR damage, the only effect that comes to mind that uses the pre-DR one is Enduring Flames. That gets rather more screwed by higher INT though, because not being Raw damage more ticks also means more DR reduction. 

 

Do the wounding shots also multiply their damage by might +dam multiplier?  That's the one thing that Enduring Flames does seem to have going for it.  The damage is equal to pre-DR damage * 50% * (1+Might Bonus).  I've got a Paladin with a 33 might, so it's kind of cool.  If you were comfortable with a lower INT on a Paladin, Enduring Flames could be pretty great.  I wouldn't personally be comfortable with a low INT Paladin though.

 

 

They do get improved by might, yes. Though that's the only thing they are affected by in terms of damage bonus, they don't get boosted by Crit etc.; directly anyway, damage bonuses will of course still increase the primary damage the effect is based on in the first place.